So... does size actually, you know, mean anything in Starfinder?
I mean, yes, technically, it means something - it means roughly 2-4 ft. in height or length, 8-60 lbs., 5 ft. space, 5 ft. natural reach (long or tall).
But that's really nothing.
That size category could well be reorganized as: rough 2-8 ft. in height or length, 8-500 lbs., and 5 ft. space, 5 ft. natural reach (long or tall).
There are really no game rule differences between these two entries and one takes less ink/effort to print.
(A similar argument can be made for fine/diminutive/tiny, but at least they have differing space requirements.)
We know, now, from this post that weapon sizes mean nothing.
So: anything?
It seems like there might be zero mechanical difference between sizes, but I'd be curious if this was confirmed anywhere.
That could lead to really funny stealth weirdness, akin to the old jokes about the Tarrasque's disguise modifier...
EDIT: Ugh, posting before I completed it. Sorry, I'm sick.
To be clear, I'm not saying that it should have all the various modifiers found in the Pathfinder game - Starfinder seems to have gone to great lengths to streamline things, after all. Rather, I'm curious if I'm just missing something.
For the record, I've tried to scan the Tactical Rules section (especially around 255-256), the Races chapter, and the Pathfinder Legacy chapter, but I can't find anything in those, leading me to conclude that there is none - it just feels weird coming off of Pathfinder, so I am attempting to clarify if I'm missing something or it is an intentional change. :D
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I found six or seven differences between Small and Medium creatures:
- the amount of air available in a null-space chamber
- part of the effects of a gravitational singularity spell
- deep bogs
- wind effects
- moving in zero-G
- Str check to break objects
- amount of food and air needed for survival
The first and the last overlap.
Is that enough for them to be different size categories? That's probably up to an individual's taste/opinion.
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Gnomes have 4 HP.So far all Small creatures have 2 HP less than Medium ones and have Str penalties.
Those could be violated later, of course, but they're true so far.
Indeed. And every other Race with a Con Bonus has 6. Making them 2 HP less than normal for a race with their stat distribution. :)
I found six or seven differences between Small and Medium creatures:
- the amount of air available in a null-space chamber
- part of the effects of a gravitational singularity spell
- deep bogs
- wind effects
- moving in zero-G
- Str check to break objects
- amount of food and air needed for survival
The first and the last overlap.
Is that enough for them to be different size categories? That's probably up to an individual's taste/opinion.
This is actually really useful! Thanks!
The hp thing is also a really useful observation, but until it's in print, it feels like the exact kind of rule that would likely be eventually lost in the shuffle of various publications.
Still: thank you!
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Indeed. And every other Race with a Con Bonus has 6. Making them 2 HP less than normal for a race with their stat distribution. :)Gnomes have 4 HP.So far all Small creatures have 2 HP less than Medium ones and have Str penalties.
Those could be violated later, of course, but they're true so far.
Stat distribution doesn't seem to have much to do with HP, especially when you consider the races from First Contact. For example the Contemplative is a medium creature that only had 2 HP. They do have a Con penalty, but so do Elves and Damaya Lashunta which are both Medium with 4HP. Not to mention that Humans and Half Elves both have the option of getting +2 Con but remain at 4 HP. Likewise Half Orcs have the option of whatever they want for their +2 yet always have 6HP. Clearly their are trends but they are definitely not hard and fast rules. See also Goblins which are small but do not have a strength penalty.
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Hmm yeah i'm curious about this too I figure we will have to find out more in alien archive surely there will be a few large or larger creatures in it. Kind of wish we would of gotten an enlarge spell.
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Hmm yeah i'm curious about this too I figure we will have to find out more in alien archive surely there will be a few large or larger creatures in it. Kind of wish we would of gotten an enlarge spell.
There is also one Large playable creature in First Contact. The Haan, which is a big floaty bug. It has only 4 HP, a strength and dex bonus and an int penalty. I kind of agree on the enlarge spell, but the main advantage of it(higher damage dice) doesn't exist in Starfinder.
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Hmm yeah i'm curious about this too I figure we will have to find out more in alien archive surely there will be a few large or larger creatures in it. Kind of wish we would of gotten an enlarge spell.There is also one Large playable creature in First Contact. The Haan, which is a big floaty bug. It has only 4 HP, a strength and dex bonus and an int penalty. I kind of agree on the enlarge spell, but the main advantage of it(higher damage dice) doesn't exist in Starfinder.
Huh?
The main advantage was IMO always the extra reach, and sometimes the size bonus for performing maneuvers. The damage bonus was an ancillary bonus but wasn't the main reason I ever used it.
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Actually two large races are in First Contact. Sarcesians are large as well.
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Stat distribution doesn't seem to have much to do with HP, especially when you consider the races from First Contact. For example the Contemplative is a medium creature that only had 2 HP. They do have a Con penalty, but so do Elves and Damaya Lashunta which are both Medium with 4HP.
Stat stuff does seem to have to do with things. Only small and Con penalty races have low HP, for example. It's just that a single factor is not the only way to get to particular things like low HP or high HP.
Not to mention that Humans and Half Elves both have the option of getting +2 Con but remain at 4 HP. Likewise Half Orcs have the option of whatever they want for their +2 yet always have 6HP.
A floating +2 isn't exactly the same as a straight-up Con bonus, and I never said that a Con bonus was the only way to get extra HP, just that it always resulted in it, which is true so far.
Clearly their are trends but they are definitely not hard and fast rules.
Hard to say. Small Creature having less HP is a hard and fast rule so far, for example. As is Con bonus races having bonus HP. Whether that will continue to be true is another question entirely.
See also Goblins which are small but do not have a strength penalty.
This is true, and something I forgot earlier.
There is also one Large playable creature in First Contact. The Haan, which is a big floaty bug. It has only 4 HP, a strength and dex bonus and an int penalty. I kind of agree on the enlarge spell, but the main advantage of it(higher damage dice) doesn't exist in Starfinder.
Sarcesians are actually also Large, have 4 HP, and get a Str penalty.
Large creatures do still get Reach, so that's a thing.
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Clearly their are trends but they are definitely not hard and fast rules.Hard to say. Small Creature having less HP is a hard and fast rule so far, for example. As is Con bonus races having bonus HP. Whether that will continue to be true is another question entirely.
There is also one Large playable creature in First Contact. The Haan, which is a big floaty bug. It has only 4 HP, a strength and dex bonus and an int penalty. I kind of agree on the enlarge spell, but the main advantage of it(higher damage dice) doesn't exist in Starfinder.Sarcesians are actually also Large, have 4 HP, and get a Str penalty.
Large creatures do still get Reach, so that's a thing.
I think it's a bit of a stretch to say much about anything for race design is a hard and fast rule at this point with so few examples.
I did forget Sarcesians though. There clearly is some advantage to Large and larger creatures, but at this point the only rules interaction of a creature being Small is that Ysoki Moxie doesn't work on them, which is a bit of a shame to me. Presumably they're easier to carry but with how abstract the bulk system is weight doesn't really seem to matter unless the GM wants it to. I suppose they could fit into smaller areas too but again that seems more of a GM discretion thing.
Actually, wait, nevermind. If a small creature can squeeze through a square, then so can a medium creature. This blanket erasure of small-medium size differences is a mistake, if you ask me.
Really? It's great if you ask me because it removes an unnecessary layer of complexity from the game.
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I don't know though If I'm 30 ft tall and 130 tons I feel I deserve some sort of bonus on grapple checks versus the 2 ounce fairy.
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Actually, wait, nevermind. If a small creature can squeeze through a square, then so can a medium creature. This blanket erasure of small-medium size differences is a mistake, if you ask me.Really? It's great if you ask me because it removes an unnecessary layer of complexity from the game.
Why have the small/medium distinction at all then?
I don't know though If I'm 30 ft tall and 130 tons I feel I deserve some sort of bonus on grapple checks versus the 2 ounce fairy.
PC characters don't need those rules because they can't be those sizes.
And NPC characters have different rules altogether for how they work.
Things work just fine as they are.
Why have the small/medium distinction at all then?Actually, wait, nevermind. If a small creature can squeeze through a square, then so can a medium creature. This blanket erasure of small-medium size differences is a mistake, if you ask me.Really? It's great if you ask me because it removes an unnecessary layer of complexity from the game.
There a few small distinctions where it does make a difference. But you're right, they should have gotten rid of those too and consolidated the sizes of creatures.
It just feels absurd that the smallest small creature is as easy to hit as the largest medium creature, or that a 3-foot hobbit has as much trouble squeezing through a hobbit door as an 8-foot vesk.
Remember, right now the only rules we have are for creature sizes small, medium, and large and it works fine that way.
For NPCs they can adjust the numbers as they see fit, and are going to use something similar to Unchained Monster creation rules. So you can make it harder to hit or better at grappling.
There is no need for most size related rules, as players cannot really change their size (as far as I can tell using the existing rules).
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One place size can matter is using looted weapons/armor. You may need your friendly mechanic to adjust them so you can use them if your size or body style are wildly different than the original owner.
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Actually, wait, nevermind. If a small creature can squeeze through a square, then so can a medium creature. This blanket erasure of small-medium size differences is a mistake, if you ask me.Really? It's great if you ask me because it removes an unnecessary layer of complexity from the game.
If you really think that, why are you playing these kinds of games? Why not just roleplay in something without defined rules if you think logically distinguishing different sizes of creatures is stupid? There are plenty out there.
Remember, right now the only rules we have are for creature sizes small, medium, and large and it works fine that way.
For NPCs they can adjust the numbers as they see fit, and are going to use something similar to Unchained Monster creation rules. So you can make it harder to hit or better at grappling.
There is no need for most size related rules, as players cannot really change their size (as far as I can tell using the existing rules).
Incorrect. The Flight Frame Powered Armour is Huge size, and no Powered Armour is smaller than Medium, meaning that Ysoki, Halflings, and Gnomes cannot remain Small size in Powered Armour.
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If you really think that, why are you playing these kinds of games? Why not just roleplay in something without defined rules if you think logically distinguishing different sizes of creatures is stupid? There are plenty out there.
Could don't you be a bit less hostile? There is no one right way to play the game. Just because I'm glad they removed a bygone product of D&D doesn't mean I don't want a game with good rules. It just means that I think some things add to the overall quality of the game and some things don't. Having different rules for different sizes of PCs doesn't really do much for the overall quality of the game.
Incorrect. The Flight Frame Powered Armour is Huge size, and no Powered Armour is smaller than Medium, meaning that Ysoki, Halflings, and Gnomes cannot remain Small size in Powered Armour.Remember, right now the only rules we have are for creature sizes small, medium, and large and it works fine that way.
For NPCs they can adjust the numbers as they see fit, and are going to use something similar to Unchained Monster creation rules. So you can make it harder to hit or better at grappling.
There is no need for most size related rules, as players cannot really change their size (as far as I can tell using the existing rules).
Last time I checked Powered Armor isn't creatures. Also, I'm not sure what point your trying to make about Ysoki in Power Armor. They haven't changed their size, they're simply using power armor.
Well just as long as we get some sort of rules for mosnters of differing sizes. Like if theirs dragons I feel we will need them. dragons go form small to colossal after all.
Additional note. I wonder how big a dragon has to get to start using the space ship rules.
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So your saying its possible.
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It seems there's no upper limit for colossal creatures. The aspidochelone at 500 feet and 100,000 tons would be as long as a large ship and over 100x the weight of the smallest colossal ship (8,000 tons).
But now that I compare ship tonnages, Starfinder starships do seem suspiciously tiny. A WW2-era heavy cruiser is ~700 feet long (large) and displaces ~8,000 tons (colossal). Star Trek's USS Voyager is supposed to be 1131 feet long (huge) and weigh 771,617 tons (!?).
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Maybe voyager is made of materials with a higher mass?
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Maybe voyager is made of materials with a higher mass?
If Voyager (344 m long, 130 m tall, 63 m wide) were a cuboid of 700,000,000 kg, its density would be ~248 kg/m^3--or a little under a quarter that of water. So let's say the Voyager takes up a quarter the space of its cuboid, making it about as dense as water. A mid-weight huge (810 US tons, or 734,820 kg) Starfinder ship of the same dimensions would be ~0.26 kg/m^3 as a cuboid and ~1 kg/m^3 as the shape of Voyager. That's a little lighter than air at sea level.
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So most likely they didn't do much research on ship weight.
Necroing my own thread (yeah, I’ll get to the undead Strongbad bit, later), but does anyone have any updates on this? I own a lot of the rules, but I’m a little out of synch with how they run at present.
On size categories, other than space and reach, it doesn't make a difference.
Larger vehicles have changes to their damage dice and reflex save DC when they ram things, but that's it for vehicles.
Specifically for character sizes:
Small and Medium size have almost no mechanical differences. The list at the top of this thread is still fairly accurate.
There are a couple of player character options for Large size, and that does change the space occupied and reach.
I don't know if there are any playable races with size smaller than Small.
I don't know if there are any playable races with size smaller than Small.
The Raxilite are tiny and the Stellifera are diminutive.
But they both have racial traits that allow them to behave as medium creatures when it comes to reach and using items.
But they both have racial traits that allow them to behave as medium creatures when it comes to reach and using items.
That seems to be the general trend for race choices. No matter what you choose, the player will not be hindered from using the common player choices.
Other examples of the trend are that, unless explicitly stated, any race has at least one 'hand' available for using weapons and items; and can usually wear armor.