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OK The question seems simple enough. Since a Vanara can carry things with his tail, would it count as a hand for carrying a Lit Lantern of hidden light(PRG:AG pg 115)? RAW would indicate that, even though a Vanara could carry the Lantern with his tail, it wouldn't stay lit as he isn't holding it in his hand.
Or would RAI say that it would stay lit because the character is holding it with one limb capable of carrying it?
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raw: It specifies hand. I think that means hand.
RAI: Any character could hang the thing on themselves, or on a nose ring, on their hip or their belt. Taking up a hand seems to be a deliberate, mechanical choice. If the Vanara could use a tail as well as a hand to weild weapons I would consider it academic and artistic as to where it would be funnier/more thematic to hang the weapon from. But as it is it looks like the lantern is supposed to inconvinience the heck out of you.
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Since a Vanara can carry things with his tailExpect table variation on this.
Some GMs believe that the tail cannot be used to carry items; only to aid in drawing items as a swift action.
Yeah I was experiencing this in a FB pathfinder group. The poster in question was trying to use the Tieflings Grasping Tail feat as proof. At least until I pointed out that a Tiefling character needed to take the alternate racial trait prehensile tail to get the full benefit of the feat.
and never mind that the first line in the Prehensile Tail entry for the Vanara in both the Advanced Race Guide and Bestiary 3 open with "A Vanara has a long flexible tail that they can use to carry objects" :p
I'll probably have to carefully go over the Alchemist description in the APG to see for sure weather or not an Alchemist needs both hands free to mix a bomb or if one hand can be holding an object or weapon. If he only needs one hand my original question is moot as even a human character could use the lantern and still throw a bomb.
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If an alchemist has the Fast bombs discovery, can he use Rapid Shot, Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, haste, and similar abilities and effects to add more attacks?
As written, yes, all of these apply because fast bombs “functions just like a full-attack with a ranged weapon.”
You wouldn't be able to two weapon fight with it if it took 2 hands
Regional Venture-Coordinator, Appalachia
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Since a Vanara can carry things with his tailExpect table variation on this.
Most GMs believe that the tail cannot be used to carry items; only to aid in drawing items as a swift action.
Yeah I was experiencing this in a FB pathfinder group. The poster in question was trying to use the Tieflings Grasping Tail feat as proof. At least until I pointed out that a Tiefling character needed to take the alternate racial trait prehensile tail to get the full benefit of the feat.
and never mind that the first line in the Prehensile Tail entry for the Vanara in both the Advanced Race Guide and Bestiary 3 open with "A Vanara has a long flexible tail that they can use to carry objects" :p
Yup that was me.
First line is pure fluff. Second line is the crunch. This is actually REALLY important for Vanara gunslinger builds, in that you cannot use the tail to hold the weapon, thereby NOT allowing you to do a dualwielding pistol build.
Not being snotty, that's just how it works.
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Not being snotty, that's just how it works.
I severely disagree.
First off, deciding whats fluff and whats crunch is iffy at best.
Secondly, and this is where i think you're no longer interpreting, there's no game terms for "hold", so saying it doesn't say "hold" as opposed to carry is just complaining about synonyms. They mean the exact same thing. You can always say another non game term isn't the word they use so that word doesn't mean anything.
Third, there is no way that something can take a key out of my pocket but somehow lacks the manual dexterity to press something to my body for a second, something I can do with my elbow.
Fourth, you really shouldn't blindside people saying their build won't work without VERY Good cause. This is very far from very good cause.
You're going from
Prehensile Tail: A vanara has a long, flexible tail that she can use to carry objects. She cannot wield weapons with her tail, but the tail allows her to retrieve a small, stowed object carried on her person as a swift action.
to
Prehensile Tail: A vanara has a long, flexible tail that she can use to carry objects. She cannot wield weapons with her tail, but the tail allows her to retrieve a small, stowed object carried on her person as a swift action.and transfer it to their hand
thats a pretty severe edit.
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Regional Venture-Coordinator, Appalachia
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Not being snotty, that's just how it works.I severely disagree.
First off, deciding whats fluff and whats crunch is iffy at best.
Secondly, and this is where i think you're no longer interpreting, there's no game terms for "hold", so saying it doesn't say "hold" as opposed to carry is just complaining about synonyms. They mean the exact same thing. You can always say another non game term isn't the word they use so that word doesn't mean anything.
Third, there is no way that something can take a key out of my pocket but somehow lacks the manual dexterity to press something to my body for a second, something I can do with my elbow.
Fourth, you really shouldn't blindside people saying their build won't work without VERY Good cause. This is very far from very good cause.
You're going from
Prehensile Tail: A vanara has a long, flexible tail that she can use to carry objects. She cannot wield weapons with her tail, but the tail allows her to retrieve a small, stowed object carried on her person as a swift action.
to
Prehensile Tail: A vanara has a long, flexible tail
that she can use to carry objects. She cannot wield weapons with her tail, but the tail allows her to retrieve a small, stowed object carried on her person as a swift action.and transfer it to their handthats a pretty severe edit.
Its also severely out of line with even other, similar racial ability and far more powerful than most racial abilities when read the first way.
The only good explanation is that the tail is NOT third hand. I take the language about wielding weapons to be pretty definitive in that respect.
Under your interp. could you use it to hold and use a wand? How about a shield? Because that's how I would read it.
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This should probably be taken over to the Rules Questions Forum. Then whatever thread is created over there can be linked in the Campaign Clarifications thread.
To the OP: as you can see here, you may encounter table variation with a Vanara carrying things with its tail. Until something more definitive comes along, I would not recommend building a character that relies on such a tactic.
Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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Racial abilities are all over the place in power level. Ranging from an additional feat, breathing underwater or being able to fly to getting a bonus to appraising items made of precious metals, or getting injured by your own lay on hands. A semi-hand that hand hold but not otherwise manipulate items is on the high side but not beyond the normal for a race's top ability.
The "carry, but don't wield" clearly stops you from using it to wield a wand of shield. The most powerful usage is probably holding a metamagic rod, although you can question whether a 5-pound piece of metal is still a small object.
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Yeah, the metamagic rod question is the one I'm looking to have answered. I was hoping I might be able to do that with my planned Vanara Magus. It'll be several levels before he gets to that point, so I'll hope for some clarification before then or just ask my GMs before the game if I plan on trying to use one. Not a huge deal if it ends up going the other way. Though I think you should be able to hold an item with the tail, even if you can't use one. There would be no need to say you can't wield a weapon with your tail if you can't hold a weapon with your tail.
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ts also severely out of line with even other, similar racial ability and far more powerful than most racial abilities when read the first way.
There's no reading it involved in saying that an ability that lets you carry something lets you carry something.
There's nothing to say that vanara and Tieflings have to use their tails the same way. Its not like Tieflings aren't chock full of other goodies.
The argument that a tiefling can't hold objects in the tail without the feat isn't rock solid either. You can imply it from something the feat says in passing, but just because a feat says you can do something doesn't mean that you can't do it without the feat (especially when its not the main point of the feat)
SO what you have is a Not bad argument about what a tiefling tails can do----> the monk esque leap of logic that vanara tails work exactly the same way V.S. The text Flat out saying you can carry objects (just not the lantern, because the lantern specifies a hand)
This is because a watered down version of a second level alchemist ability (vestigial hand) is allegedly too powerful.
The only good explanation is that the tail is NOT third hand.
That level of strawmanning is not a legitimate response.
A Third hand would let you wield another weapon. The tail clearly does not do this and no one is saying that it does
Under your interp. could you use it to hold and use a wand?
I believe no. The minimum manual dexterity listed for a wand is a tentacle. A tentacle can be used to attack and the tail can't.
How about a shield? Because that's how I would read it.
A vanara could carry it like equipment or a package slung under your arm but it wouldn't provide it's AC or magic.
Buckler: Benefit: This small metal shield is worn strapped to your forearm
Shield, Heavy; Wooden or Steel: You strap a shield to your forearm and grip it with your hand. A heavy shield is so heavy that you can't use your shield hand for anything else.
IF that's not wielding (I'm pretty sure that's wielding) it's more than just carrying the shield.
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let me add a wrinkle to the 'the tail can't carry things' debate: the tree hanger feat. now that tail can carry an entire medium creature with all of its gear, but not a one pound item? honestly, it can retrieve an item from my bag, but not hold it? how does it move the item to my hands then?
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Regional Venture-Coordinator, Appalachia
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Just look at the way its written vs other abilities.
Like there are two kinds of race abilities
The CRB ones with no fluff - this is your reading of the vanara tail and some of the later ones to include many of the alternate racial abilities like this elcen Dreamspeaker that include a sentence of fluff and sentence of crunch, which is my reading:
A few elves have the ability to tap into the power of sleep, dreams, and prescient reverie. Elves with this racial trait add +1 to the saving throw DCs of spells of the divination school and sleep effects they cast. In addition, elves with Charisma scores of 15 or higher may use dream once per day as a spell-like ability (caster level is equal to the elf’s character level). This racial trait replaces elven immunities.
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Prehensile Tail says it can be used to carry items, thus it can be used to carry items, full stop.
If that was the entirety of the ability, you'd be correct.
But it's not. There is additional text that must be considered and interpreted.
One method of analyzing an ability is by comparing it to similarly worded abilities.
For example, we have an FAQ on Magical Lineage. Most people accept that the same FAQ applies to Wayang Spellhunter, because they are nearly verbatim.
And that's what's being done here. Comparing the Vanara's Tail to the Tiefling's Tail is not unreasonable.
It's a logical attempt at solving an ambiguity.
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Regional Venture-Coordinator, Appalachia
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You're still trying to argue that a racial trait doesn't allow you to do what it describes, fluff or not; that something that literally says your tail can carry items does not, in fact, allow your tail to carry items.
Ok let's stop here.
If you want your monkey to hold like a bar of soap in his tail fine. If you even want to carry your lantern there with no real effect other than roleplaying that its easy to access (only a swift action to draw it after all), that's probably fine too.
But for any effect in which HOLDing or WIELDing an item has an actual mechanical effect, like say a wand or a rod or a light source even, which is what the question posed here is then the answer is no.
And your only justification of this bizarre interpretation is that other racial traits often start with a sentence that has no mechanical effect, with no rule or style guide that would indicate that the fist sentence must be fluff only to back that up.
It's not bizarre. Compare to the elf ability I just posted. The Dreamspeaker elves can see into dreams. In a home campaign that might have some really nice fluffy things that come up as part of the story. You might roleplay feeling the tension coming off of a stressed out party member.
But mechanically, that ability only does what the next sentence says.
No. This is not something a player should have to deal with in organized play.
Perhaps as solid a reason as any to keep the proliferation of Vanara pretty limited.
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It's not bizarre. Compare to the elf ability I just posted
It is incredibly bizarre. You are arbitrarily picking a completely unrelated ability from a different source and arbitrarily declaring that the sentence structure is the same so the text doesn't say.. exactly what the text says. Even though one doesn't have anything mechanics related in the sentence.
That is bizarre. I think that is past interpretation.
Are we back to arguing about whether Sleep makes people fall down?
When you get into a headspace that lets you reach for backgammon rules to settle a question about chess, it's time to stop examining chess questions.
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Regional Venture-Coordinator, Appalachia
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Even though one doesn't have anything mechanics related in the sentence.
Precisely. The word "carry" has no mechanical value. Its fluff.
What a lot of people i've seen want to do with a vanara is fire two pistols, use the tail to hold a pistol for a second while they reload. You seem to be trying very hard to make an argument against that
Because thats not what the text says. It says you can draw a stowed item.
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this feels like the pummeling stance debate where rules lawyers loved to say the word punch used in the description was fluff, right up until the devs said it wasn't.
in any case, i enjoy douglas that, after stating the the vanara could carry the lantern as long as he didn't try to get the mechanical effect, therefore saying the OP could in fact do precicely what you have been arguing he couldn't, you have gone back to saying the tail can retreve items but not carry them. despite the fact that, mechanically, with a little bit of training it could carry the whole vanara.
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also, tieflings are a false equivalency. Tieflings have a host of nice racial traits. Vanara's do not. Moreover, things with the same name are not the same. Incorporeal subtype, incorporeal universal monster ability, and the condition incorporeal all do different things. Only one of those makes you immune to critical hits, for instance.
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Precisely. The word "carry" has no mechanical value. Its fluff.
The elf dreamy ability doesn't tell you to do anything. The vanara tail does. It's plain english. Carry the thing. We all know what that looks like.
Because thats not what the text says.
It is exactly what the text says.
Prehensile Tail: A vanara has a long, flexible tail that she can use to carry objects.
It's just not what the text says in the next sentence. It's patently absurd to say it doesn't say it when i'm looking at it.
It says you can draw a stowed item.
Those are not mutually exclusive things, at all. A feat can say two things, especially when they're related.
Absolutely nothing says that the vanara tail or the tiefling tail (with or without the feat) can't carry items.
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Regional Venture-Coordinator, Appalachia
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We're never going to agree on this. Nothing you can say is going to convince me that, short of the Grasping Tail feat that Tieflings get, that this can be done.
Until a developer or someone steps in to demand it be ruled one way or another I (and others) will probably rule this the same way.
So I'm just gonna leave it at that.
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There is absolutely no way you can expect someone building their characters to pick up on the same line of logic you're using here and follow it. At all. You're reaching the exact opposite conclusion of that the text says plain as day. That takes a REALLY good argument and this is a really, really, really, really bad argument.
How do you pick which sentence structure to compare it to?
Change Shape (Su): A kitsune can assume the appearance of a specific single human form of the same sex.<--- chock full of Mech
The kitsune
always takes this specific form when she uses this ability. A kitsune in human form cannot use her bite attack, but gains
a +10 racial bonus on Disguise checks made to appear human. Changing shape is a standard action. This ability
otherwise functions as alter self, except that the kitsune
does not adjust her ability scores.
Kitsune Magic (Ex/Sp): Kitsune add +1
to the DC of any saving throws against
enchantment spells that they cast. <---- all crunchy
Kitsune with a Charisma score of 11
or higher gain the following spell-like
ability: 3/day—dancing lights.
So the idea that you can say -its all fluff in the first sentence then all crunch- is patently false.
Likewise you're idea that the first sentence says nothing because the second sentence says something else is entirely arbitrary. By what you're saying kitsune would not Add to the DC of enchantment spells because the second sentence says they can cast dancing lights. (it would also say that you don't get to cast dancing lights because the first sentence says they add 1 to the dc of their enchantment spells)
Please consider your argument objectively. Consider if it's good enough to tell a level 5 character they have to play a pregen or go home because their character doesn't work.
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To effectively stow an item as free action just because you have a tail is entirely too good IMO. There is a three feat chain to get gun twirling to dual pistol it up. A racial trait shouldn't make a joke of that. The other option is your glove slot for a glove of storing for 10,000gp, or an item enchant called shadowshooting to get around reloading entirely (at the cost of some damage possibly, see enchant for more details). A racial trait should not let you bypass these costs since each is a pretty significant investment. Not to mention Vanaras are already primed for gunslinging with the pluses to dex and wis. This is like crying about your aasimar cleric not being able to channel twice as a standard. Haha
Not to mention the prehensile tail only really has this mechanical benifit "While they cannot wield weapons with their tails, they can use them to retrieve small, stowed objects carried on their persons as a swift action" Because the Grasping Tail feat specifically has the special text "If you have the prehensile tail racial trait, you can use your tail to grab unattended items within 5 feet as a swift action as well as to grab stowed objects carried on your person; you can hold such objects with your tail, though you cannot manipulate them with your tail (other than to put them in your hand)."
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To effectively stow an item as free action just because you have a tail is entirely too good IMO. There is a three feat chain to get gun twirling to dual pistol it up. A racial trait shouldn't make a joke of that. The other option is your glove slot for a glove of storing for 10,000gp, or an item enchant called shadowshooting to get around reloading entirely (at the cost of some damage possibly, see enchant for more details).
Or be a level 2 alchemist with a vestigial arm. Which is exactly worth a feat which.. is exactly what humans have
Or a monkey tail belt. The hold item ability is worth around 3 grand or so. Darkvision costs more (after you subtract its dex bonus (4k), and ability to climb with a dex bonus (????) .
And there is something just wrong when you're making a monkey buy a monkey tail belt.
or a 750 GP unseen servant caddy.
Not to mention the prehensile tail only really has this mechanical benifit
No. You simply cannot declare that half of the ability isn't there and then imply things from its absence.
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The benefits listed by BNW are investments of levels or gold, and the gold one is only 5mins/day, or weird action economy of handing a weapon off and getting it back (which is a what and what action?). But the wording for tiefling and vanara tail are identical, which makes grasping tail wording relevant.
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The benefits listed by BNW are investments of levels or gold
All this says is that the racial ability is worth something.
And of course it is worth something.
You need to argue that the tail is SO Out of line that it overrides the text. A belt of dwarfyness will run you 14 k, so the idea that a race CAN"T be worth more than 5k gold isn't born out.
and the gold one is only 5mins/day, .
In one minute increments. Nothing lives that long when the gunslingers around. 5 ten round fights is more than sufficient.
Again, you have a VERY high burden of proof here. A subjective argument about being to good is iffy, and the evidence simply isn't bearing it out. A lot of racial abilities ARE that good to the right build.
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The Prehensile Tail trait for both Tieflings and Vanaras clearly states that the tail can be used to carry objects. To suggest that this does not mean you can hold an item makes no sense. To suggest that this is only flavor text with no mechanical benefit also makes no sense. The Grasping Tail feat lists only "Tiefling" as a prerequisite, not that you must also have the Prehensile Tail trait. This allows you the benefits of Prehensile Tail without having to trade out Fiendish Sorcery. If you do have the Prehensile Tail trait, it also has the added benefit of allowing you to pick up unattended objects within 5 feet as a swift action.
Edit: Corrected the special ability given by Grasping Tail.
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Ok, ready yourselves. HAHA. The prehensile tail for both tiefling and vanara are very similar in wording.
Prerequisites: Tiefling.
Benefit: You can use your tail to grab stowed items. While you cannot wield weapons with your tail, you can use it to retrieve small, stowed objects carried on your person as a swift action.
Special: If you have the prehensile tail racial trait, you can use your tail to grab unattended items within 5 feet as a swift action as well as to grab stowed objects carried on your person; you can hold such objects with your tail, though you cannot manipulate them with your tail (other than to put them in your hand).
It specifically says the tail can HOLD such objects, not just carry. Hold is much more a game term, then carry is. Held items are a thing. Carried in game terms generally only refers to being on your person.
On to clarifying why monkey belt is a terrible solution. Its a named item so it locks you in at +2 dex for the rest of the characters career, on a class and build that needs all the dex it can get. If you seriously think that would compare to the FREE tail, then wow....
Multi-armed is 4 racial points in Advance Race guide, that gives you a third arm, which can also be used for attacks but is another off hand for it. It counts as a free hand though, and SPECIFICALLY says so. And would be in the same boat as far as pistol wielding (two hands occupied with guns, and one reloading) for double the race points. Prehensile tail is 2 race points, and Slapping tail is 3 race points. Slapping tail can be used to make an attack, but not manipulate objects. In this case Prehensile tail is effectively giving an extra attack, which would be worth more than the 2 race points it is imo.
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It specifically says the tail can HOLD such objects, not just carry. Hold is much more a game term, then carry is. Held items are a thing. Carried in game terms generally only refers to being on your person.On to...
Stop. Look what you're trying to do
You are making a worse than questionable argument that because grasping tail says that you can hold objects that you cannot hold objects without grasping tail. The rules simply do not work that way. If that was all grasping tail did then YES it would imply that. But the main point of grasping tail is to pick stuff up off the ground as a swift action (making it one of the first viable armed disarm builds).
You are then trying to take that conclusion, not a known but a conclusion, and extrapolate it into a different races ability.
That is a very long bridge built out of very questionable materials. You need it to hold up a massive weight of the text not saying exactly what the text says and... wow. It absolutely does not. Platonic logic simply does not work in anything less than a perfect system with a perfect logician. Pathfinder is very much NOT that system.
Its far more sensible to say that
The vanara CAN carry things in their tail. The teifling ability is similar to the vanara, therefore the tiefling can carry things in their tail.
The ability to carry something is a complete non ability as you're describing it. It comes free with the adventurer's outfit.