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Still digesting the rules, yet there seems to be plenty of contradictions. Things like the DC to pilot more advanced vehicles is harder than less advanced, so it should be easier to win a race with a model T auto rather than a 21st century sports car.
I do know many board games and tactical war game (such as battletech) make the initiative loser move first, then the initiative winner moves last. The movement technically takes place simultaneously, yet the initiative winner now knows the opponent's path and can take that into account while the initiative loser just showed their intentions.
From what I gather in my first go through of reading, this is what happens in Starfinder. Essentially the initiative loser declares their intent first, the winner can declare their intent with the added knowledge of knowing what the initiative loser will do, and action takes place "simultaneously".
This is why the initiative loser declares what and where they fire first, the initiative winner declares fire last, yet the results are considered a simultaneous exchange.
It's rather pointless in a one on one duel, yet becomes important when there are multiple targets.
Still, I can't understand why flyby attacks are allowed if movement is considered simultaneous - unless the ship you fly past has opted not to move.
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Doesn't it seem like there could be a mechanical benefit to having a worse pilot in the case of escape? It seems weird that a lower roll equals better off.
I think that RAW you're correct. The obvious fix is to allow the character who rolls high the choice of who goes first.
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Flyby does seem to give an advantage to the low roll, but it can also be used by the high roll if the other ship is still in range of movement. I think that's the one case where low might have a potential advantage, but it's also one of the higher DCs to perform, so I see it as a chance for a pilot to redeem their earlier failure if they ordinarily have a high skill bonus.
Pilots going first due to being generally terrible are unlikely to be able to pull off a flyby anyways :D (At DC 24, it would be less than 50% for my own ace pilot operative to pull off against a T2 ship without assistance, for example!)
I think that RAW you're correct. The obvious fix is to allow the character who rolls high the choice of who goes first.
Doesn't it seem like there could be a mechanical benefit to having a worse pilot in the case of escape? It seems weird that a lower roll equals better off.
So the lower result moves first as they weren’t good enough to read the opponents maneuvers. I know x-wing uses a similar mechanic. The lower initiative goes first. Other than that every thing really happens simultaneously. Yes they may get a flyby or so, but you can get in behind them and get them where your best fire power lies. When they are done moving you have a better chance of manuerving do they can’t get in good position.
Most ships have weaker weapons in the aft vs the forward weapons. If you can get into this position you will most definitely have the advantage.
Still digesting the rules, yet there seems to be plenty of contradictions. Things like the DC to pilot more advanced vehicles is harder than less advanced, so it should be easier to win a race with a model T auto rather than a 21st century sports car.
I suspect the 21st century sports car has better Modifiers than the model T.
It does seem odd to me that Speed doesn't come into play at all, though. Maybe they're assuming no open roads that make it easy to go full speed?
Yeah, as my group found out last week, going first in the event of an escape is STILL better, because running and shooting are two separate phases; if the opponent goes first, they have to move and rotate to where they think you will be, and on your turn you can counteract that, making sure to evade the worst firing arc.
If the opponent's main weapon is turret-mounted, you're screwed anyway as no matter if you move first or the opponent does, you'll still be roughly the same distance apart (one or two turns notwithstanding). Trying to juke behind them to run away in their worst arc? They just turn in place and gut you.
For fighting or escaping, moving last is everything.
Except for flyby attacks, it would work fine. Flyby attacks allow an opponent that goes first to setup an attack with most of the advantages of having gone last. They better make that pilot roll though (20 + 2x *enemy* ship's tier).
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I think you're all missing the OPs point. Everybody (including him) realizes that, in general, it is vastly superior to act last.
But there ARE cases when you want to act first. He gave an example. You're faster and are trying to run away. You're willing to accept that the enemy is going to shoot you (probably in the arse with all his best weapons) while you do little in return.
In this unusual edge case you want to go first. There are others (a race to get into a space station, an insanely superior ship is showing off,etc). So, the winner of initiative SHOULD get to decide who goes first
even though 95+% of time they will decide to go last
I think you're all missing the OPs point. Everybody (including him) realizes that, in general, it is vastly superior to act last.
But there ARE cases when you want to act first. He gave an example. You're faster and are trying to run away. You're willing to accept that the enemy is going to shoot you (probably in the arse with all his best weapons) while you do little in return.
In this unusual edge case you want to go first. There are others (a race to get into a space station, an insanely superior ship is showing off,etc). So, the winner of initiative SHOULD get to decide who goes first
even though 95+% of time they will decide to go last
Actually, a race to get into a space station/through a worm hole first would not be a situation that benefits from having lost initiative. The way you would run it would be that after movement was completed by both sides, the ship that went last in initiative order and had also reached the goal would be the one determined to have reached the goal first.
A starship race would probably be better modeled by using the vehicle chase rules in the Gamemastering chapter.
I think you're all missing the OPs point. Everybody (including him) realizes that, in general, it is vastly superior to act last.
But there ARE cases when you want to act first. He gave an example. You're faster and are trying to run away. You're willing to accept that the enemy is going to shoot you (probably in the arse with all his best weapons) while you do little in return.
In this unusual edge case you want to go first. There are others (a race to get into a space station, an insanely superior ship is showing off,etc). So, the winner of initiative SHOULD get to decide who goes first
even though 95+% of time they will decide to go last
Whether you are faster or not, your puruser will STILL be the same distance from you when he takes his shot, whether he goes first or second. They might be one square different due to inferior turning radius, if that. If your are drastically faster, you will make it out of weapon range just as fast whether going first or last, and still get shot all the same, if the weapons are powerful enough. There's no advantage in pursuit from losing the pilot check.
If you are going to run, you're better off getting out of the main arc of fire by going to one side, and to do that you need to know where your enemy is turning. A good escape by a smaller, faster ship wil likely look like a zig zag pattern as you get ever further out of weapon range, then burn for it in a straight line away.
The only corner case might be as was mentioned, trying to make it to a wormhole that closes as you enter or something, but these are VERY rare.
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Actually, a race to get into a space station/through a worm hole first would not be a situation that benefits from having lost initiative. The way you would run it would be that after movement was completed by both sides, the ship that went last in initiative order and had also reached the goal would be the one determined to have reached the goal first.
Most importantly, nit picking my secondary example is totally not the point. There ARE edge cases. They're rare but they exist.
But I can't resist disagreeing with you. A race should only be decided by piloting skills in the case where the two ships have the same speed (or maybe, just maybe, when they're very close in speed).
The speed 12 ship beats the speed 8 ship in a race. Don't care who the pilots are. Now, the pilot skills may let the speed 12 ship not get destroyed before it wins the race (evasion if nothing else) :-)
Somehow, I thought this thread was about chases when I made this post. My apologies for any confusion.
Still digesting the rules, yet there seems to be plenty of contradictions. Things like the DC to pilot more advanced vehicles is harder than less advanced, so it should be easier to win a race with a model T auto rather than a 21st century sports car.I suspect the 21st century sports car has better Modifiers than the model T.
It does seem odd to me that Speed doesn't come into play at all, though. Maybe they're assuming no open roads that make it easy to go full speed?
So people comment that going first you can execute a flyby. IF they fail you get a free attack on them. You can turn round and do the same thing. I don't think fly by is going to be a go to thing. At a DC of 20 +2 x Ship tier, that can get very difficult. But I haven't had experience using this system yet.
Just because you have the fastest ship/car etc doesn't mean you will ALWAYS win. Speed is just one of several variables. Thats like saying just because I have a Ferrari I will always beat A Dodge Challenger. Yes in most aspects it is a superior vehicle. Being able to drive the car for one is very important. Knowing when to shift is also a huge importance, if you start to lose control can you recover. Racing is MORE than just who is faster. Similar mechanics are the same with Starship battles etc.