I am new to Pathfinder so feel free to laugh at, correct, or simply give advice whenever you see fit.
I'm working on my first official character and am building a druid. The more I think about it the more I like the first level spell: Thorn Javelin. The description is as follows: A wooden thorn the size of a javelin (appropriate for your size) appears in your open hand. You can wield this thorn as a javelin, and you are proficient in its use. Any creature struck by the javelin must succeed at a Fortitude save or be sickened for 1 round. If you throw the javelin, another one appears in your hand. Any javelin that leaves your grasp disappears at the end of your turn. Each javelin attack you make reduces the spell’s remaining duration by 1 minute. If an attack reduces the remaining duration to 0 minutes or less, the spell ends after that attack resolves.
So.... assuming that this spell last for 1 minute per caster level, which I believe it does, this means that by casting this one spell, I can use the attack six times by level six, once per round. Now, if I were to take point blank shot and rapid shot for feats not only would it be more powerful and accurate, but I could throw 2 per round for 3 rounds? Add a strength modifier and this is a pretty great level one spell that could be efficiently used throughout the majority of the game, right? I should also mention that I am interested in using primarily throwing weapons like a spear, in addition to spells, so the feats wouldn't only pertain to this one spell. I'm also interested in using alchemical splash weapons; would these feats pertain to those as well or are they not truly range weapons like the javelin is? I feel like there is something here that could be really fun and effective so please let me know and give me some guidance.
The big downside to Thorn Javelin is that it will not have an enhancement bonus. Early on it doesn't matter much, but later, when say a +3 weapon would make much more effective attacks and break through magical or other types of damage reduction, Thorn Javelin will look pretty weak.
An alternative would be Produce Flame, which can operate like a self-replenishing thrown weapon, but uses a touch attack and does fire damage. Because of how it works, you can apply metamagic to keep it relevant and make it more interesting (changing damage type, increase damage, add effects).
Personally, I would love to create a two-weapon Druid slinging Produce Flame in one hand and wielding a sword in the other, using a type of Druid who gives up Wild Shape for combat ability (like a Nature Fang).
That is helpful, thanks Badbird. Personally I don't want to give up wildshape though; the fighting style above was just for when in human form. I want to be able to shape into a bird and cast spells from the skies for my primary combat stance. It stinks knowing that thorn javelin wouldn't be viable throughout the majority of the game, just my luck. I really liked the idea of having a druid that used throwing weapons as a primary human weapon; essentially making him a ranged fighter sans a typical ranged weapon. Would this build still work if I were able to carry multiple spears with me once I can afford them, like masterwork and enchanted ones to take the place or be in addition to the thorn javelin? Or would those feats not work for the spear/short spear (I'm not sure if they are considered range.) Or are there other feats that would make a druid with thrown weapons more useable? Also, any advice on the addition of splash weapons i.e. are they range? could I get good enough making them myself with spell focus craft alchemy and perhaps master alchemist feat, etc.? Or maybe there is something that could make me proficient or better at using javelins in general that would transfer over to thorn javelin. By casting the spell I am proficient with those but javelins in general are not a proficiency for druids.
Just read produce flame description.... bad ass. Different than I thought it was. It functions exactly like thorn javelin but you get an extra +1 damage per caster level with a max of five. Only thing is that with thorn javelin I believe you can still get a strength modifier added to it. So it is possible that it would deal more damage in late game. My druid will probably start with 16 Str. meaning it will get a +3 right off the bat, as compared to the +1 of produce flame. If I can get my Str. to 20 then it will deal equal damage but still have the sicken effect. Also, don't know much about this, but I could even apply poisons to it as well. Upside of produce flame is a 120' throwing distance without penalty.
You can of course take a feat to be proficient with all javelins, but that is probably not worth it. You are better off probably taking some ranged feats (like precise shot, point blank shot etc.) and using either slings or short spears (short spear can be a thrown weapon) when you aren't using a thorn javelin.
All that being said, unless you specifically build just for this you probably won't be great at it, and if you a primarily interested in being a caster druid that uses wildshape for mobility and not being noticed, every feat you spend on throwing ability is a feat you aren't spending to be better at your spell casting. And your stats probably won't line up for being great at it either, since a casty druid wants a ton of WIS you won't have a lot left for good DEX and STR and you aren't a full BAB class so that lags behind as well. What this means is that as the levels go up, you are probably going to find your effectiveness at throwing things steadily going down, while of course your spells are just getting more powerful, so you will do less and less throwing, and probably come to regret 'wasting' those feats.
The game really rewards specialization, and trying to have multiple focuses often leads to characters that can't really do anything.
So, would metamagic not work on thorn javelin?
Dave Justus wrote: You are better off probably taking some ranged feats (like precise shot, point blank shot etc.) and using either slings or short spears (short spear can be a thrown weapon) when you aren't using a thorn javelin.
This is what I talked about doing with short spears in addition to thorn javelin. It does make sense though that I wouldn't be able to adequately build for both thrown weapons and spell casting.
Palestag wrote: So, would metamagic not work on thorn javelin? Yes, but differently because TJ conjures a physical weapon. Produce Flame can be changed to cold or acid or whatever to get around resists, can be made to cause fear or dazing, and can have its damage bumped up with Empower. Because TJ just summons a weapon, none of that applies. PF also attacks Touch AC, making it way easier to hit most things.
If throwing spears appeals, there are ways to do that with a real spear.
As said above, if making a thrown weapon Druid, make a thrown weapon Druid. A Druid probably wants to be in Wildshape before battle even begins if they're a Wildshape Druid. You can always enjoy Thorn Javelin until you get Wildshape, then move on.
If you really like the thorn javelin, you could probably do some interesting things with the goliath druid archetype. The javelin is correctly sized for you, so when you are a giant, it makes a giant sized javelin.
If this is a home game, I could see a lot of GMs being willing to work with you on additional spells along this theme, Greater Thorn Javelin (combining thorn javelin with the effects of Greater Magic Weapon) or javelins that bestow different conditions than sickened as examples.
This build though would likely only have a moderate WIS score, and better STR and DEX, but it could be fun.
I like you and where your head is at.
When using metamagic feats is the spell treated as one level higher regardless of how many you have on it, or is it one level per feat?
Palestag wrote: When using metamagic feats is the spell treated as one level higher regardless of how many you have on it, or is it one level per feat? Each metamagic feat adds its modifier to level. So an Empowered, Piercing Produce Flame would be +2 +1 levels. However, there are traits that reduce this by 1, and you can use metamagic rods without adding levels - some are cheap, most are expensive. So you could cast Empowered, Elemental Produce Flame, while using an Extend rod, and having the trait Magical Lineage: Produce Flame, and it would be a level 1 +2 +1 -1 = 3 spell and use Extend from the rod for free.
Extended TJ would have double the Minutes of use, though if the GM is willing, you could research a higher level version, say lvl 3 or 4 that either get's a +1/4 lvls enhancement or adds 1d6 fire or acid damage, might even look at envenom, but again, it's up to the GM.
I feel like once the spell is strong enough to work at higher levels it just wouldn't be worth it any more. That is a lot of feats for essentially one spell. Of course some could be used on other spells and everything, but would it be worth it? I would want something like: extend, daze, piercing, elemental; at which point a level two spell is a level 8 spell. Granted it would be cool, especially because at level 8 (which I have to be to use it) I can throw the produce flame 16 times, dealing 11-16 damage with 5 SR increase, a daze, and of any element, but it takes me 4 feats to get there and limits how many times I can cast it as compared to it being just a level 2 spell for a long time.
Scrapper wrote: Extended TJ would have double the Minutes of use, though if the GM is willing, you could research a higher level version, say lvl 3 or 4 that either get's a +1/4 lvls enhancement or adds 1d6 fire or acid damage, might even look at envenom, but again, it's up to the GM. I like the idea of extend on TJ since extend might be the most useful metamagic feat there is, or most versatile anyway. I could add that to a lot of other spells. Taking that at third level would allow me to cast it and use it 6 times dealing 1xD6 + Str. modifier in damage, which with a Str. of 16 I believe would be 3. So a level three spell that can do 4-9 damage plus sicken 6 different times.... that sounds like it would be pretty solid for a long time and wouldn't be a wasted feat getting there since a lot of other spells like entangle, buffs, call lightning storm (I think) would also benefit from it.
Like other people mention, there's an opportunity cost attached to making Thorn Javelin measure up to other options, but I really like the flavour you're going for.
It might be rather complicated if you're just starting out with the game, so your GM may not allow it, but you could try looking at the variant multiclassing option for the Magus class as detailed here. In return for half of your feats, you will get some abilities that can strengthen your Thorn Javelins as you conjure them.
So if I did produce flame with the feats I would want on it my feat progression would look something like this: Level 1- Extend Level 3- Elemental Level 5- Natural Spell (druid after all) Level 7- Piercing Level 9- Dazing Level 11- Intensified..... making it a level 9 spell, I think I said it was level 8 earlier. So.... is it worth it?
Emo Duck wrote: Like other people mention, there's an opportunity cost attached to making Thorn Javelin measure up to other options, but I really like the flavour you're going for.
It might be rather complicated if you're just starting out with the game, so your GM may not allow it, but you could try looking at the variant multiclassing option for the Magus class as detailed here. In return for half of your feats, you will get some abilities that can strengthen your Thorn Javelins as you conjure them.
I appreciate you liking the flavor, as that is what is appealing to me here as well. That and a chance to do something unique... which I guess is flavor in and of itself. This Magus thing is interesting, but the way I understand it is that it is essentially the same thing as taking metamagic feats, right? Only instead of the feats I get Magus Arcana?
Just had another thought. If I were to boil it down to two options on this subject I could essentially put three feats on TJ or five on Produce Flame, granted the flame would be better but let's just see which one sounds more practical.
Thorn Javelin: Extend+Point Blank Shot+Rapid Shot= 8-18 damage per round if they both hit and the Str. modifier is 3, plus sicken.
Produce Flame: Extend+Elemental+Piercing+Dazing+Intensified= 11-16 damage per round plus the choice of element, better SR odds, and daze.
So... TJ has better max damage and PF has better min damage. I think we can agree daze is better than sicken giving an edge to PF. The SR is moot for the comparison since you can't resist TJ but you can roll fortitude saves for the sicken. PF takes 5 feats whereas TJ is 3. Also, that is about maxed out for PF in terms of damage but with higher Str. the TJ will do more. Now, after BadBird came in I really liked the idea of PF but it does seem like TJ might be a better bet since I can make this happen by level 7 as opposed to level 11 and with fewer feats.... If either of them is even viable after all is said and done.
The new Metamagic feat "Benthic Spell" from the Elemental Master's Handbook could be very interesting used in conjunction with Produce flame. Turns elemental damage into bludgeoning damage (counts as magical for damage reduction purposes) and is a +1 spell level metamagic feat. It also lets you do 50/50 bludgeoning/elemental damage if you want to.
DeathlessOne wrote: The new Metamagic feat "Benthic Spell" from the Elemental Master's Handbook could be very interesting used in conjunction with Produce flame. Turns elemental damage into bludgeoning damage (counts as magical for damage reduction purposes) and is a +1 spell level metamagic feat. It also lets you do 50/50 bludgeoning/elemental damage if you want to. How would this differ from the elemental metamagic feat? I feel like both are to make it so fire resist is less of a factor and it seems to me that changing to any element over just blunt would be more useful.
PF will also arguably work fine while in Wildshape, while TJ obvious doesn't unless you're humanoid.
It's not really a question of when things 'start to work' though. You use a spell as it is at level 1, then you pick up advantages as you go. You buy a metamagic rod for Elemental spell at the point where you're concerned about fire resist. You pick up Piercing when you're reaching the point that Spell Resist is going to be a concern. And so on.
One note with PF - it works 'as a thrown weapon', so you can use Rapid Shot with it just like with TJ. Another thing to note is that if an enemy has resistance to fire, you just change the damage type. But with TJ, it's physical damage, which only overcomes resistance with weapon enhancement or special material. This means that running into an enemy with 5/ Cold Iron or whatever will simply wipe out 5 points of damage from every TJ attack with no way to get around it.
Damn, BadBird... must you always have the right thing to say? Just when I thought I had something figured out. As point blank shot is a prerequisite for rapid shot would point blank work the same for PF as well? My main concern with this route for PF over TJ is less about when it takes effect and more about how much it takes to be of a good effect. It comes down to the feat count over player level, really. Every time I think TJ has the upper hand you give the edge back to Produce Flame though. I just might have to do it your way because it sounds pretty sick. Also, I probably wouldn't use either spell much in wildshape since what we are talking about is meant to really just be the way I attack in human form. Animal form would be all about casting other spells. This is more of a "weapon" option for human form. Which is why I thought the TJ build was good since it would apply to the short spear as well.
Hold the phone... why are we acting like I have to choose. If point blank, rapid shot, and extend would apply to both PF and TJ then I can just use both.... Perhaps get the other feats that pertain to PF later on and then I can use either one at any time depending on situation?
Palestag wrote: How would this differ from the elemental metamagic feat? I feel like both are to make it so fire resist is less of a factor and it seems to me that changing to any element over just blunt would be more useful. Well, should you ever come across something with a flat resistance to all forms of elemental magic, it would prove useful. Your character won't always make the knowledge check to learn elemental resistances, after all
DeathlessOne wrote: Palestag wrote: How would this differ from the elemental metamagic feat? I feel like both are to make it so fire resist is less of a factor and it seems to me that changing to any element over just blunt would be more useful. Well, should you ever come across something with a flat resistance to all forms of elemental magic, it would prove useful. Your character won't always make the knowledge check to learn elemental resistances, after all Good point. Also, when I took a second look at elemental I found that it isn't a constant choice of which element to use, you pick one in place of the one the spell originally is. Or, it can do 50/50 just like the blunt one. So this probably gives the edge to the blunt metamagic in my opinion. What is blunt weak against?
Elemental Spell (as well as the associated metamagic rod) requires you to pick the energy type when you take (or craft) it. So try to pick a good spread for the kind of campaign you're seeing, or keep a bandolier of rods.
Edit: Blunt is susceptible to DR/slashing (e.g., zombies, giant slugs). Also DR/piercing, but that's almost nonexistent.
Off topic question: As a half-elf druid you can select one cleric domain power that can be used a number of times per day equal to 3+Wisdom modifier.... So my question is if I were to take one like this.... "Copycat (Sp): You can create an illusory double of yourself as a move action. This double functions as a single Mirror Image and lasts for a number of rounds equal to your cleric level, or until the illusory duplicate is dispelled or destroyed. You can have no more than one copycat at a time. This ability does not stack with the Mirror Image spell. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Wisdom modifier" would the length of the spell still be used as my cleric level or would my druid level take the place of it?
Edit: You mean as a favored class bonus? Do you have a domain as your nature bond? If so, your druid level is your cleric level for the purpose of that domain.
blahpers wrote: Edit: You mean as a favored class bonus? Do you have a domain as your nature bond? If so, your druid level is your cleric level for the purpose of that domain. No, my nature bond would be an animal companion. Half-Elf Select one cleric domain power at 1st level that is normally usable a number of times per day equal to 3 + the druid’s Wisdom modifier. The druid adds +½ to the number of uses per day of that domain power. For half-elf druids whose nature bond gives them an animal companion, add +1 skill rank to the animal companion. If the half-elf ever replaces her animal companion, the new companion gains these bonus skill ranks. This is what I am referring to. It is a favored class bonus for the half-elf.
The favored class bonus applies to whichever version of nature bond you have. If you have a domain, it gives you half a use of its basic domain power. If you have an animal companion, it gets a skill rank.
blahpers wrote: The favored class bonus applies to whichever version of nature bond you have. If you have a domain, it gives you half a use of its basic domain power. If you have an animal companion, it gets a skill rank. Whoops, I thought it was both.
To be fair, the wording does make it seem like you can collect single uses of 1st-level domain powers across the domains. Kinda want to see a weird archetype like that now. : P
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