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Palestag wrote:

@BigNorseWolf, but will they watch football with me too? Doesn't matter, I NEED someone to play Pathfinder with. Football can be all on my lonesome.

Quote:

I'm just glad I am in Minnesota

Answered your own question :)

Harder than you might think. Even my buddies from high school that are all pot head/redneck don't care about football. They hunt, fish, camp, hike, live off grid with me, and play video games but won't watch football or play Pathfinder. I wish it was as easy as living in Minnesota. Oh well, at least there is a designated place to find people for Pathfinder.

@Damanta, Thank-you! Those are helpful links to have.

@Flutter, You're the man. I am for sure going to add Combat-Grapple to the list. Possibly Serve; like I said for flavor reasons I may not want him to take orders from others. Certainly not someone he hardly knows or hasn't gained his trust.

@BigNorseWolf, but will they watch football with me too? Doesn't matter, I NEED someone to play Pathfinder with. Football can be all on my lonesome.

I'm just glad I am in Minnesota now and not Maui or the mountains in California; this should make it much easier to get games going. Although a surprising number of people played MtG in Maui, which was nice.

I don't believe Scribe Scroll is legal for PFS. You will have to purchase those scrolls.

I couldn't find anything online about this other than it not being listed on the Archives of Nethys, which I believe is the appropriate place for PFS legality. In which case, you are right. I guess I will have to hold out hope that my friends will decide to play Pathfinder with me; or I will make some new nerdy friends to play with. I've wanted to play something like D&D or Pathfinder since I was 10 and learned that it was a thing. 17 years later and none of my buddies are willing to play with me still. It used to be that they were all jocks, now it's because they are all pot heads that would rather play Elder Scrolls, Fallout, or League of Legends. Where are all the cool people that will watch football with me AND play tabletop RPGs?!? Ugh... first world problems.

How do combat maneuvers work with the level 7 large cat? He gets grab, pounce, has rake and all that good stuff. So, do I need flank or other maneuvers to help make these more effective, or would those become redundant once Mittens/Mogli reached level 7?

Dang, Flutter; you're great. I have suddenly come up with a thought that is probably not kosher, but I would like to ask about it anyway. Could you essentially use Defend in place of Stay? I mean, could I be like, "hey Mittens/Mogli, defend that rock," and then call to him when I am ready? Or maybe set down a dagger or something for him to defend?

Also, I have edited my tricks list and currently have 11 and could use advice on two more. They are: 1. Attack 2. Attack Anything 3. Defend 4. Down 5. Flank 6. Heel 7. Seek 8. Exclusive 9. Fetch 10. Sneak 11. Stay

Will the "large" cat have problems with sneak because his stature is large? If so, is there ways to improve upon it? I mean, I want him to be much like a real world large cat. They aren't exactly ninja assassins, but are capable of a stealth approach on prey. I don't expect him to be full rogue, but if he can't climb a tree and sneak up on a grazing herd of deer, that would just seem silly to me. Although this is my first true attempt at Pathfinder, I am a lover of RPGs and love the role-play aspect over full optimization (though I don't want to be a puss either.) So, I am okay with sinking some stuff into making it realistic and flavor appropriate; as those are my priorities. Number one priority is of course my boy, Mogli/Mittens. And just for the heck of it, anyone have a bias or preference towards me taking a Tiger named Mittens or a Lion named Mogli?

I appreciate the response, Gary. The reason I want to take Exclusive is because of some things I read on this thread saying that without it the companion can fall victim to mind control spells or Charm Animal, in which case it can be ordered to attack you. With exclusive, however, there appears to be little to no way for this to happen. I also don't think I want to take the trick that allows others to command him, mainly for flavor reasons. I like the idea of this creature not taking orders from anyone but me, as he and the Druid have little trust for anyone but one another. Their trust would be very hard to gain, and so perhaps down the line I would take that trick, if only to apply it to one other PC.

Well.... in the past two days I read the entirety of this thread; (ok.. I skimmed some of it.) Wow. Great stuff here and very informative. I notice that the last post was about two weeks ago, but I am hoping this is a good place to still get some questions answered about my animal companion for my first Pathfinder character. I am going to be playing a Druid (caster) with either a lion named Mogli, or a tiger named Mittens, so basically the same thing as far as stats and the sheets will go.

The way I want to role-play the animal is that he and the Druid are best friends and essentially brothers. The Druid (named Aumakua) goes nowhere without his companion (I am taking Scribe Scroll for things like: Carry Companion, Spider Climb, etc. to make this viable) and never willingly puts him in harms way. I also want my companion to be just that, not a pet, a partner.... or companion. I would like for him to be much like a lion/tiger in real life in that he is capable of stealth, climbing, and good damage. Although I don't exactly know how I will fully use him in combat as of now.

I am going to be Human and will take the Eye for Talent over a bonus feat, which truly was a difficult decision, none the less my cat will have 4 intelligence to start. So, for my tricks I am thinking: Attack, Attack anything, Defend, Detect, Down, Exclusive, Fetch, Flank, Heel, Hunt, Seek, Sneak, and Track. My first question would be, are these all useful?
1.)If it is a large cat and I am a druid and we both have survival is hunt, or even track, necessary? I would imagine we could both hunt fairly well on our own without needing a trick to do so; or is this more so that I can send Mittens/Mogli off on his own and share his dinner with the rest of us? As for Track, will I really need him to follow the scent on his own or would our combined abilities to track be good enough?
2.) I would like to be able to work "stay" into the trick list as that seems useful and if I do I can't imagine I need both "come" and "heel." I saw that, Flutter said the two are basically interchangeable and I guess I am just looking for confirmation on that. Or if maybe one is more practical than the other.
3.) Would Seek only be used to put Mogli/Mittens in danger or are there other applications for it other than just sending him into a room alone to be attacked, or the victim of a trap, or whatever else?
4.) Would any of these be worth dropping or replacing? Like I said, I would want to get Stay in my Tricks list; perhaps also Menace and Guard.
5.) Is it possible that with a linguistics skill and high intelligence, it won't matter so much which tricks I pick since I will be able to efficiently push him to do what he doesn't know?

Also, can anyone recommend some useful feats for using the companion the way I want? Like I said, I want him to be somewhat stealthy and have the ability to do some decent climbing... I mean, a lion that can't climb up a tree or sneak up on prey seems kind of silly. Any appropriate combat based feats would be useful as well. Maybe even just a list of your favorites. Any and all help will be greatly appreciated. Thank you in advance, and thank you for all the great info that is already here. Good man, Flutter.

How would Persistent Spell and Bouncing Spell work on the same spell? If a creature made a save twice then could I send it towards another creature? Would that second creature make one save or two?

Also, I don't have a 30 point buy. I was confused as to how the point buy system worked. I thought 1 point costed 1 point. I now see to get something to 18 it actually costs 17 points, not 8. Which is crazy. I would much rather roll since when I did it that way I got 14, 17, 14, 10, 19, 8.... which is apparently pretty amazing. I think with a 20 point buy I would do something like Str. 10, Dex. 15, Con. 15, Wis. 16, Int. 8, Cha. 8 and use a Human/Half-elf race bonus of +2 on Wisdom, bringing it to 18.

For flying, the shaman domains don't prevent you taking other forms, they just make you wait a little longer.

From level 7 onwards you can just use air walk until you get access to an easier flight form. Small elemental should come online at level 8 as an animal shaman. Small air elementals will give you excellent options.

I know I can take all animal forms with the animal shamans, I just meant that I have to do so at a penalty unless it is an animal specifically governed by that Totem Archetype. So, if I took Bear then I get a bonus to being a bear, which is cool, but I take a penalty at being an eagle, which is what I want to be. This has me leaning towards the Eagle Shaman with the Animal Domain; that is if I can take any animal as a companion. I like getting bonus feats, but I'm not a huge fan of the ones the Eagle gives you. I would almost just rather have the venom immunity at that point.

What is boils down to is that I want an archetype that will let me have an animal companion (preferably lion or tiger,) take the shape of a bird (or at least be able to fly,) and be a spell caster. In an ideal world I would have some sort of backup to casting spells for those times that I can't or it isn't practical (though I understand this is not an ideal world.) I like the totem archetypes, but they make my wildshape less useful when I am not in the preferred animal form. Either I can be an effective flyer, or I can have the companion I would rather have.

Also, I do really like the Mehnir Savant. I just don't like losing woodland stride as that and venom immunity are my favorite perks of being a Druid (aside from the animal companion, spell list, and wildshape.)

So if I were to drop the whole thrown weapons thing and lost the three feats that went with it, what would you suggest? I don't want to be a melee fighter at all because then it seems to me that that would be harder than a thrown weapon fighter. If I am melee and a caster then I have to worry about defense, damage, and spells. If I'm a thrown weapon caster then it is just damage and spells. Right?

I like the Saurian and Lion Shamans as andreww suggested; the Lion being more appealing in some ways but since I want to be able to fly when I cast spells the Saurian gives me the option of at least becoming a pteranadon. Perhaps Eagle Shaman? If I take a totem archetype with the Animal Domain do I still have to take their specified animal companion since I didn't actually choose an animal companion?

I thought it was just a 20 point buy because that is what the numbers add up to, so I'm guessing that 1 point doesn't always cost 1 point? This is basically my first character so I didn't realize that was a problem. I made one character before and played a total of 10 hours with it before the game fell apart; I rolled for abilities and got: Str. 14, Dex. 17, Con. 14, Int. 10, Wis. 19, and Cha. 8 without racial bonus, so I didn't think the ones I chose were too crazy or anything.

I also didn't mind having to pay 3 feats to be able to use Thorn Javelin, Produce Flame, and other thrown weapons with at least some efficiency. I figured it would make it so that I could conserve spell slots and still be in the fight from a safe distance, though not dealing great damage. My theory was with buffs and certain wildshape forms that TJ would be somewhat effective and with metamagic feats PF would be as well. I know you only get a limited number of attacks with them, but since they aren't my main way of dealing damage or even fighting and they last 1 min/round (1 throw=1 minute) and twice that with extend, I felt that they were a good use of a spell slot. Even if they only did 4 damage a piece I could throw three per turn by level 8 dealing 12 damage plus sicken for TJ and maybe Daze with PF if I had it on there. Doing that multiple rounds just seemed like a good use of spells. Also, I didn't want to use a rod so that if I had one of these spells cast in my hand I could still cast spells with my other hand. If you don't think so, then I probably need to rethink my route. I like both of your suggestions, andreww. I don't want to focus too much on summoning though, I am aware it is one of the best types of magic but I just don't want to have something else doing the fighting for me all the time and it seems like that is the way everyone goes with their Druid.

I've consulted the threads and spent a lot of time researching, I mean a lot of time. I just don't want to make something that is cookie cutter and that everyone has made. I thought I would go for something different but still simple.

I've had two other threads on here getting advice on ways to make a build that I want and everyone was very helpful, so I thought I would post what I've come up with to see how others think it will fair. Any advice, comments, and corrections are welcomed and appreciated. So... settle in.

I want to have a caster Druid, yes with an animal companion because I don't think one spell per CL is worth it when you can't choose the spell, but I think for the majority of the game (especially early on) the Druid just doesn't have the spell slots to rely on magic alone. I also know that a Druid can't do it all, but I think if there is one class that can do a little of one thing and a lot of another then this is it. My attempt at this is to have a secondary fighting ability to throw weapons. He of course won't be great at throwing, but in those situations where I don't have spells to spare or SR is too big a problem, or even just early on, I think it will be viable. I would mainly rely on Thorn Javelin and Produce Flame for this. I'm also drawn to spells that have continuous effect after they've been cast. Things like TJ and PF, of course, but also those controllable sphere spells like "Ball Lightning, Flaming Sphere" as well as Call Lightning, and I mean, you get the picture. Ideally I would use wild shape to take the form of a bird or flyer of sorts to cast spells form above and always have 1-2 spells for damage of each energy type, or maybe element type since acid could be hard to maintain but "earth" would be easy. A heal or two for emergency situations, but mostly heal out of combat with wands and potions because I'm no healer. I also like dispel and energy resist spells, so one or two of those, but mostly crowd control and utility spells is what I want. Things like entangle, warp wood, that one where you teleport between trees seems cool, and of course crowd control that also deals damage is a plus like thorny entanglement (I think.) So, anyway....

With a 20 point buy and human ability bonus:
Str. 14 Dex. 16 Con. 14 Wis. 18 Int. 10 Cha. 10
I don't want to dump Charisma and Intelligence if I don't have to because I feel like out of combat I would be extremely limited and I want to be able to role play as well.

Traits: Focused Mind and Reactionary

Primary Skills: Craft (Alchemy), Fly, Handle Animal, Knowledge (Nature), Perception, Spellcraft, and Survival

Profession: Herbalist
I think that Herbalist and Craft Alchemy are both flavor appropriate for a Druid and should work well together, though I don't actually know how. Perhaps I can find reagents with Herbalist and save on cost for Alchemy?

Feats:

1.) Point Blank and Precise Shot (Human)
3.) Extend- Up until this point I would probably have to lug around javelins or something since I won't have many spells and will want to deal damage from a distance. Suddenly with extend my PF and TJ are sticking around for six rounds and are a decent use of a spell slot.
5.) Natural Spell- Because duh...
7.) Rapid Shot- Now I can throw two of TJ or PF per turn, no Quickdraw required, and at level 8 my BAB will grant an additional attack. (I believe that is how it works anyway.)
9.) Dazing Spell- Suddenly that PF has huge crowd control potential and later I can put this feat on other spells and be the CC + damage king. Also, I would take this at 9th level because it would bump PF up to a level 5 spell slot. Additionally this is where I can cast Aspect of Wolf (?) for +4 to Str. AND Dex. keeping TJ viable. Maybe even turn into some sort of ape and gain bonuses that way. A TJ wielding gorilla with buffs.... pretty cool.
11.) Heavy Armor Proficiency- This is the level I need to be to cast Irnonwood and can now wear it without penalty.
13.) Intensified Spell- Ups my PF damage as well as for other spells, but mostly I need another metamagic feat for my next feat to work
15.) Spell Perfection- I would have to wait until I get there but I might put this on PF; although an Intensified, Dazing, Perfected Ball Lightning sounds pretty sweet. Who knows... long ways off.
17.) Maybe Toughness.... I don't know, if I make it this far that is. Campaign might not get me here, I might not get me here, open to suggestion at this point.
19.) Perhaps Lightning Reflexes if those saves are really hurting me; again suggestions here would be good.

That's pretty much it. Let me know and thanks in advance.

This has been very helpful; I see why you wouldn't be able to add a modifier and will operate as if that is a definitive rule. I am still wondering though if feats like Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, and Precise Shot will work for this spell.

Palestag wrote:

BadBird wrote:

Acid Dart isn't a physical dart any more than Flame Blade is a physical blade, or Fireball is a physical ball.

Well either way, it's your GM you would need to convince, not us.

That point aside, my argument is solid and I think you know that. I don't know how acid dart isn't in someway physical though. It may not be a literal dart but if it is made of acid in anyway that would be physical in a sense that fire is not. Acid can be bottled, or held, or felt aside from the burn it would cause whereas fire can not.

From a considerable amount of experience with this stuff, I'd say your argument isn't automatically invalid, but it's arguably shaky in light of the general way the system treats energy damage that originates from a spell. I would bet that the vast majority of people would rule on the side of 'no'. It could also potentially be regarded as a rather 'rules-lawyer' approach, where one is trying to circumvent the general spirit of the rules-system on a dubious technicality in order to get what one is after. Don't take that as some kind of criticism or anything; it's subjective. But people can often see things like this in that light. The best thing is to ask a GM, lay out your arguments as clearly as possible, once, and then cheerfully accept whatever they rule.

Edit: incidentally, 'acid' in Pathfinder is a type of energy damage. Think of 'acid' damage as like 'fire' damage - you don't need actual physical stuff that burns to inflict fire damage, and you don't need actual physical acid to inflict acid damage. The line is blurry, but that's how it works; otherwise a character in a robe should suffer more from 'acid' than one in a suit of full plate.

I just saw this and you are pretty much right. I'm basically playing Devil's Advocate here. It is less to get what I want though, since using this as a weapon throughout an entire campaign would take a lot of feats and though great at first would taper off in a hurry and be a lot less useful later on, and it is more because this snowballed. For every reason that I can't there are two reasons why I can and I have just been waiting for a clear concise reason why I can't. This is the only thing I have seen in the rules that I will disagree with the majority on because the rest of it is pretty plain once you think about it. I think this takes more thought and effort but ultimately it is plain as well. Not every aspect can be listed (TJ damage) when it can be found elsewhere, like when to add a mod. And that it would be silly to say melee is 1D6+1 and a thrown weapon is 1D6+1 rather than to say it is the same. There is a strong chance I am arguing for the sake of arguing, but that doesn't mean I am not making sense and that what I am saying is wrong. Every point to why this can be done is there and counteracts every point that says why it can't.

I mean, if TJ damage isn't listed how do you know what damage to apply? By looking elsewhere. So, if mod damage isn't listed how do you know something applies mod damage? By looking elsewhere.

That is because javelin damage is listed elsewhere, the damage for this spell is not. Just like adding mod damage is listed elsewhere, but not with this description or any other weapon description. Sort of solidifies the point that listing it over and over would just be repetitive, like listing the damage for this spell twice rather than saying it is the same. Does it really have to say melee touch is 1D6+1/ per level and when a thrown weapon it is 1D6+1/per level for this to make sense. It cant just say it is the same and since one is a thrown weapon and one is not that one gets a mod? What part of this is deliberately not understanding?

Produce Flame is clearly an exception to the rule(which you say are everywhere in the game, so this should be no surprise) that thrown weapons add Str to damage, because it does not say you do. It says you deal 1d6 +1 per caster level. That's how the spell works.

I certainly never said they are everywhere. I said there is almost always an exception to every rule. Thorn Javelin does not say you can add a mod and neither does the description of any other weapon, yet you do.

Flame Blade was brought up as a way of saying you can't add a Str. mod. It sounds to me that the FB description only strengthens the argument that you can add a mod for Produce Flame. Another example would be Thorn Javelin. It is essentially the same spell. You use magic to use a thrown weapon.... a javelin. Can you not add a Str. mod to this javelin? If you can then why not be able to do it to another thrown weapon that comes about in the same fashion. Flame Blade says you can't and it also says it isn't a weapon; Produce Flame says it is a weapon and there is no mention of not adding a mod. However, there is mention in the rules that thrown weapons gain a Str. mod and this is in fact a thrown weapon.

I understand what you are saying but you are going to have to tell me why what I said is wrong rather than coming at me with the same argument that has already been explained.

Produce Flame wrote:

Alternatively, you can hurl the flames up to 120 feet as a thrown weapon. When doing so, you attack with a ranged touch attack (with no range penalty) and deal the same damage as with the melee attack.

How much damage does the melee attack do? Does it apply Str damage? Let's look at that line now.

Produce Flame wrote:

You can strike an opponent with a melee touch attack, dealing fire damage equal to 1d6 + 1 point per caster level (maximum +5).

No mention of adding Strength to damage, so you can't.

I already commented on this. Let me copy and paste that part for you.

I think that is so they don't have to be repetitive in stating its base damage. When in melee form it is not considered a weapon, it becomes a weapon when thrown. A weapon has a Str. mod. So in melee touch no mod, bud as as a thrown weapon it has a mod. It is safe to say that Paizo never intended for it to work this way, but with their wording I have to operate under the assumption that they did intend for it. If not, they could have made the flame act as a ray spell for a ranged attack, or even ingested and used as a breath attack, but they decided it was a thrown weapon instead

And

For example, when you look at a chart style list of weapons, both melee and ranged, none of them mention that they do damage based off of a modifier as well, they only state their base damage. So, I feel like this description of PF is kind of like a masterwork weapon, such as dealing 1D6+1 damage, in which case it would still have a Str. modifier even though it isn't listed in the weapon description

Physics isn't a factor you can use to argue this really. Physics don't allow you to reverse gravity at will or summon fire out of nothing. You can't use a physics argument at all. Magic is Magic. Just because you can throw fire with a spell doesn't mean it can be thrown "harder". Also, its a general rule that touch attacks don't add your strength to damage, and this is a ranegd touch attack.

I don't know if you read the feed or not but I agree with you. My physics argument is in response to one telling me that is why I can not do this. I don't know where this confusion came from. What I was saying is that physics can't be applied and if you do apply it everything falls apart. I understand that touch attacks don't use strength in general but there is almost always an exception to every rule in this game and this seems to be one. It is a touch attack in the form of a thrown weapon. Thrown weapons use strength.

If the acid dart thing doesn't apply then I believe my other argument on the whole physics thing still holds up; which is: if physics is a variable then the ball of fire can not be thrown in the first place, but since it can be thrown then it can be thrown harder. As well as that this is a fantasy game and it is a magical ball of fire and therefor does not have to apply to the same laws of physics that we understand to be true in this world. I'm not going to pretend like I am a physicist or have much grasp on theoretical physics, but I mean, come on. It is magic fire. It's not like you and I went camping and I tried to grab the campfire out of the pit and whip it at you.

Pathfinder, from what I can tell and have heard other posters say, is a game where "the rules don't say I can't" isn't what you want. You want "the rules say I can" to back up your statements.

I think the rules say that I can do this. The rules say you add your Str. modifier to thrown weapons and this is a thrown weapon. That is kind of what I've been saying this whole time.

Acid Dart isn't a physical dart any more than Flame Blade is a physical blade, or Fireball is a physical ball.

Well either way, it's your GM you would need to convince, not us.

That point aside, my argument is solid and I think you know that. I don't know how acid dart isn't in someway physical though. It may not be a literal dart but if it is made of acid in anyway that would be physical in a sense that fire is not. Acid can be bottled, or held, or felt aside from the burn it would cause whereas fire can not.

I'll toss in my vote on the side that says you're not adding STR to produce flame. The spell is evocation (you're manipulating heat), not conjuration (actually creating the heat).

At first I thought you had made the best point yet; now I think this works in my favor. If I created the heat then that is all I did, created a ball of fire. If I manipulated the heat then I can bend to be different than just a ball of fire. Perhaps it has mass now because it has been manipulated, or some other explanation.

Again, I am basically brand new to this game. I don't mean to be an arrogant ass or anything and I do love to play devil's advocate, but this is truly the way I am seeing all of this play out in terms of description.

I think that is so they don't have to be repetitive in stating its base damage. When in melee form it is not considered a weapon, it becomes a weapon when thrown. A weapon has a Str. mod. So in melee touch no mod, bud as as a thrown weapon it has a mod. It is safe to say that Paizo never intended for it to work this way, but with their wording I have to operate under the assumption that they did intend for it. If not, they could have made the flame act as a ray spell for a ranged attack, or even ingested and used as a breath attack, but they decided it was a thrown weapon instead.

As for the armor, it is a magical fire weapon, it ignores it. Whatever. Take for example the cleric domain spell acid dart: it does touch AC and is a magic spell. This dart obviously has mass yet it ignores armor.

I'm with you on the physics thing for sure. This is however a fantasy game and this ball of fire couldn't been thrown in the first place if we bring physics into it, considering that it has no mass. So, if it can be thrown then it can be thrown harder. The ray spells point is moot because they are not considered a weapon.

I just read Flame Blade and I still think Str. can be added to Produce Flame. First of all, FB is not mentioned to be considered a weapon but is only said to be wielded like a scimitar, not that it is a scimitar. Whereas the PF is explicit in saying that it is considered a weapon. Also, FB goes so far as to say that Str. isn't added which they do not do for PF.

There might not be a rule that supports the ability to do this, but I haven't found a rule that says you can't either. If you only did things in this game that a rule deliberately said you could do then there would be a ton of stuff that player's couldn't do that they do all the time. Since there isn't a rule saying one way or the other then I think that by the description stating it is a thrown weapon and thrown weapons get Str. mods that it would in fact get a Str. mod. Especially if you need to rely on Dex. to make it hit. I don't know for certain, but I don't believe most spells have to rely on Dex. to make them hit. I could be wrong though. So, if it has to use one ability for a draw back, then why not one as a positive?

I am highly considering that Nature Fang build. I am also interested in a Pack Leader where I would use a level 1 bird as a scout and for utility purposes and my main companion be a tiger. Then when I was level 8 and the tiger 7 I could consider getting like an elephant or triceratops or something like that as well.

However, I realize Str. wouldn't be applied to most spells which makes sense. Most spells don't count as a weapon though, this one does. Ray attacks are just that, magic produced ray attacks. This is a magically created weapon, just like Thorn Javelin which certainly gets a Str. mod added to it. So, why not this one? It is the same thing.

There might not be a rule that supports the ability to do this, but I haven't found a rule that says you can't either. If you only did things in this game that a rule deliberately said you could do then there would be a ton of stuff that player's couldn't do that they do all the time. Since there isn't a rule saying one way or the other then I think that by the description stating it is a thrown weapon and thrown weapons get Str. mods that it would in fact get a Str. mod. Especially if you need to rely on Dex. to make it hit. I don't know for certain, but I don't believe most spells have to rely on Dex. to make them hit. I could be wrong though. So, if it has to use one ability for a draw back, then why not one as a positive?

Physical weapons get to deal that extra damage. No matter how hard you throw fire it's still on fire, and there are no rules to support adding your Strength modifier to damage with spells like Produce Flame. If it was 1d6 and +1 to +5 and ability score modifiers it wouldn't be a first level spell.

But it is considered a thrown weapon..... If it can be used in melee and in ranged as a thrown weapon then it is kind of like a spear which gets mods no matter how you use it. Only difference is that a spear isn't considered a ranged weapon.

For example, when you look at a chart style list of weapons, both melee and ranged, none of them mention that they do damage based off of a modifier as well, they only state their base damage. So, I feel like this description of PF is kind of like a masterwork weapon, such as dealing 1D6+1 damage, in which case it would still have a Str. modifier even though it isn't listed in the weapon description.

1. Nope, spell says exactly how much damage is.

4. I could be wrong on this one actually.

6. Shrug

7. Love ya.

1. But if you were wrong about 4 then it would be considered a ranged weapon for all intents and purposes and a strength modifier would then be applied?

4. See 1

7. You're sweet.

1. So, would Str. modifier affect damage?

2. True, however it lasts one minute per caster level, so at level 4 I could throw 4 of them with one spell; Extend Spell and I can throw it 8 times over 4 rounds with one spell, which is pretty decent when used in addition to other thrown weapons that benefit from the same feats sans Extend Spell.

3. I figured as much.

4. "Alternatively, you can hurl the flames up to 120 feet as a thrown weapon." Does this not mean that it is considered a weapon? The way I understood it is that you cast the spell to get the flames and then the flames are considered a weapon after that; just like Thorn Javelin.

5. That is what I figured.

6. But does damage modifier also come up with this other than the hit chance? And since Dex. is required for the to hit chance when thrown and there is Spell Resist involved, is it really worth it?

7. I very much appreciate the help. Thank-you.

Green Scourge is really great for Flame Blade builds, which is similar to Produce Flame. Might be a fun option to check out?

I should mention that this is essentially my first Pathfinder character.

I currently had another thread going about a unique build for a druid which was essentially a thrower but used things like Thorn Javelin and Produce Flame in place of typical thrown weapons. Things got interesting but it lead me to some confusion on "produce flames" and after a lot of research it would appear that I am not the only one.

So, Produce Flames:Flames as bright as a torch appear in your open hand. The flames harm neither you nor your equipment.

In addition to providing illumination, the flames can be hurled or used to touch enemies. You can strike an opponent with a melee touch attack, dealing fire damage equal to 1d6 + 1 point per caster level (maximum +5). Alternatively, you can hurl the flames up to 120 feet as a thrown weapon. When doing so, you attack with a ranged touch attack (with no range penalty) and deal the same damage as with the melee attack. No sooner do you hurl the flames than a new set appears in your hand. Each attack you make reduces the remaining duration by 1 minute. If an attack reduces the remaining duration to 0 minutes or less, the spell ends after the attack resolves.

Does this mean that feats such as Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, and Vital Strike would all be applicable to this spell? Would Precise Shot even be necessary or do you not take the -4 penalty for enemy in melee? Also, since it is considered a thrown weapon would you add a Str. modifier to the damage? Would your Dex. affect your hit chance?

Assuming all of the above information is able to be applied I think adding Extend Spell and another metamagic feat or two could make this spell a lot of fun and a viable weapon replacement, or at least weapon addition.

The favored class bonus applies to whichever version of nature bond you have. If you have a domain, it gives you half a use of its basic domain power. If you have an animal companion, it gets a skill rank.

Whoops, I thought it was both.

Edit: You mean as a favored class bonus? Do you have a domain as your nature bond? If so, your druid level is your cleric level for the purpose of that domain.

No, my nature bond would be an animal companion. Half-Elf Select one cleric domain power at 1st level that is normally usable a number of times per day equal to 3 + the druid’s Wisdom modifier. The druid adds +½ to the number of uses per day of that domain power. For half-elf druids whose nature bond gives them an animal companion, add +1 skill rank to the animal companion. If the half-elf ever replaces her animal companion, the new companion gains these bonus skill ranks. This is what I am referring to. It is a favored class bonus for the half-elf.

Off topic question: As a half-elf druid you can select one cleric domain power that can be used a number of times per day equal to 3+Wisdom modifier.... So my question is if I were to take one like this.... "Copycat (Sp): You can create an illusory double of yourself as a move action. This double functions as a single Mirror Image and lasts for a number of rounds equal to your cleric level, or until the illusory duplicate is dispelled or destroyed. You can have no more than one copycat at a time. This ability does not stack with the Mirror Image spell. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Wisdom modifier" would the length of the spell still be used as my cleric level or would my druid level take the place of it?

Palestag wrote:

How would this differ from the elemental metamagic feat? I feel like both are to make it so fire resist is less of a factor and it seems to me that changing to any element over just blunt would be more useful.

Well, should you ever come across something with a flat resistance to all forms of elemental magic, it would prove useful. Your character won't always make the knowledge check to learn elemental resistances, after all

Good point. Also, when I took a second look at elemental I found that it isn't a constant choice of which element to use, you pick one in place of the one the spell originally is. Or, it can do 50/50 just like the blunt one. So this probably gives the edge to the blunt metamagic in my opinion. What is blunt weak against?

Hold the phone... why are we acting like I have to choose. If point blank, rapid shot, and extend would apply to both PF and TJ then I can just use both.... Perhaps get the other feats that pertain to PF later on and then I can use either one at any time depending on situation?

Damn, BadBird... must you always have the right thing to say? Just when I thought I had something figured out. As point blank shot is a prerequisite for rapid shot would point blank work the same for PF as well? My main concern with this route for PF over TJ is less about when it takes effect and more about how much it takes to be of a good effect. It comes down to the feat count over player level, really. Every time I think TJ has the upper hand you give the edge back to Produce Flame though. I just might have to do it your way because it sounds pretty sick. Also, I probably wouldn't use either spell much in wildshape since what we are talking about is meant to really just be the way I attack in human form. Animal form would be all about casting other spells. This is more of a "weapon" option for human form. Which is why I thought the TJ build was good since it would apply to the short spear as well.

The new Metamagic feat "Benthic Spell" from the Elemental Master's Handbook could be very interesting used in conjunction with Produce flame. Turns elemental damage into bludgeoning damage (counts as magical for damage reduction purposes) and is a +1 spell level metamagic feat. It also lets you do 50/50 bludgeoning/elemental damage if you want to.

How would this differ from the elemental metamagic feat? I feel like both are to make it so fire resist is less of a factor and it seems to me that changing to any element over just blunt would be more useful.

Just had another thought. If I were to boil it down to two options on this subject I could essentially put three feats on TJ or five on Produce Flame, granted the flame would be better but let's just see which one sounds more practical.

Thorn Javelin: Extend+Point Blank Shot+Rapid Shot= 8-18 damage per round if they both hit and the Str. modifier is 3, plus sicken.

Produce Flame: Extend+Elemental+Piercing+Dazing+Intensified= 11-16 damage per round plus the choice of element, better SR odds, and daze.

So... TJ has better max damage and PF has better min damage. I think we can agree daze is better than sicken giving an edge to PF. The SR is moot for the comparison since you can't resist TJ but you can roll fortitude saves for the sicken. PF takes 5 feats whereas TJ is 3. Also, that is about maxed out for PF in terms of damage but with higher Str. the TJ will do more. Now, after BadBird came in I really liked the idea of PF but it does seem like TJ might be a better bet since I can make this happen by level 7 as opposed to level 11 and with fewer feats.... If either of them is even viable after all is said and done.

Like other people mention, there's an opportunity cost attached to making Thorn Javelin measure up to other options, but I really like the flavour you're going for.

It might be rather complicated if you're just starting out with the game, so your GM may not allow it, but you could try looking at the variant multiclassing option for the Magus class as detailed here. In return for half of your feats, you will get some abilities that can strengthen your Thorn Javelins as you conjure them.

I appreciate you liking the flavor, as that is what is appealing to me here as well. That and a chance to do something unique... which I guess is flavor in and of itself. This Magus thing is interesting, but the way I understand it is that it is essentially the same thing as taking metamagic feats, right? Only instead of the feats I get Magus Arcana?

So if I did produce flame with the feats I would want on it my feat progression would look something like this: Level 1- Extend Level 3- Elemental Level 5- Natural Spell (druid after all) Level 7- Piercing Level 9- Dazing Level 11- Intensified..... making it a level 9 spell, I think I said it was level 8 earlier. So.... is it worth it?