I think the intent is yes, even if it's not clearly in the rules.
Think of proficiency and the feat seperarely. If you have a class skill that gives you proficiency, BAM, yer proficient.
But if you don't and yer class doesn't offer, but want to, gotta get the feat and meet those requirements.
I have a similar question about why power armor has a STR requirement at all. Isn't it like driving?
I have a similar question about why power armor has a STR requirement at all. Isn't it like driving?
Some descriptions of power armor have it reinforce your own movements, but with some feedback and "dragging" before it responds. A lever increases your strength, but you still need a minimum strength with a lever of a fixed length to move a given load.
I didn't realize there were two threads on this. Here's what I posted in the other thread:
If the proficiency counts as a feat, then you have to have the strength proficiency. But then at the same time, Adaptive Fighting becomes a fantastic feat that a Soldier can get at Level 1 (it requires three combat feats as a prerequisite).
On the other side, the classes specifically state that you gain proficiency - it does not say you gain a feat. And there's nothing in the equipment chapter that says you need to meet the strength requirement to use it. The strength requirement is for gaining the feat at a later time.
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I am not sure what the trend in Pathfinder is or what the trend in Starfinder will be, but in d20, when you gain a feat without meeting the prerequisites, you do not need to meet the prerequisites to use the feat.
Either, gaining proficiency through a class feature is not a feat or it is a feat that you gain without needing to meet the prerequisites.
If Paizo's intention was that heavy armor required a certain strength, they should have placed that requirement in the heavy armor section. They did this for heavy weapons, per Gorluckcanfly, and did not do this for heavy armor so I believe that the strength is only required if you gain proficiency through a feat.
Pretty much the title.
Normally when classes can ignore prerequisites for feats that their class gives them it is clearly called out in the class.
If this is not called out then I would assume you get the feat free but still need to meet prereq's to use it.
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Pretty much the title.
Normally when classes can ignore prerequisites for feats that their class gives them it is clearly called out in the class.
If this is not called out then I would assume you get the feat free but still need to meet prereq's to use it.
The issue with this is that Proficiencies are not inherently Feats. Feats can give you Proficiencies, but so can other things. In the same way a Feat can grant an Insight bonus to a skill but so can other things. Imagine if Skill Focus had an Int 13 prerequisite. That might restrict people who got it as a bonus Feat but would have no effect on Class Features that grant Insight bonuses to skills. Same situation.
For an example helping my point, the Exocortex Mechanic Option (p.79) states:
Your exocortex provides you with enhanced combat ability, granting you proficiency with longarms and heavy armor.
Note the lack of the term 'Feat' anywhere. This is especially notable as, less than a page later, it says the following:
In addition, your exocortex grants you the Skill Focus feat as a bonus feat.
Also, on p. 242, when talking about powered armor it says:
Characters can gain proficiency with powered armor by taking the Powered Armor Proficiency feat (see Chapter 6) or via certain class features.
The bolded text would not be a necessary sentence if such class features only provided a bonus Feat. And, indeed, would make no sense in that case.
Indeed, the definition of Proficiency (p. 514) is as follows:
Proficiency: You have proficiency with a weapon or armor type if you're trained in its use, through either your class or a feat. See pages 242-243.
There. That's pretty definitive. The very definition of the term says that class granted proficiencies and feats are different categories entirely.
Now, interestingly, the Weapon Specialization all Classes get for free at 3rd, is explicitly called out as bonus Feats, so anyone with at least three categories of Weapon Proficiencuy from Class does auto-qualify for Adaptive Fighting at 3rd level...but not until then.
That's everyone except the mystic and technomancer. They only get two, so they need one more combat feat to qualify for adaptive fighting.
And that also means that very few PCs would explicitly take the Weapon Specialization feat by choice. Pretty much every single classed 3rd level character would already qualify for Versatile Specialization.
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Now, interestingly, the Weapon Specialization all Classes get for free at 3rd, is explicitly called out as bonus Feats, so anyone with at least three categories of Weapon Proficiencuy from Class does auto-qualify for Adaptive Fighting at 3rd level...but not until then.That's everyone except the mystic and technomancer. They only get two, so they need one more combat feat to qualify for adaptive fighting.
Yep. And that appears perfectly legal...if perhaps unintended. Or not. I mean, Adaptive Fighting is cool but not game-breaking, wanting people to have it makes some sense, really.
And that also means that very few PCs would explicitly take the Weapon Specialization feat by choice. Pretty much every single classed 3rd level character would already qualify for Versatile Specialization.
Correct. Not that the difference matters at all for people only taking one category of Proficiency other than their Class ones. Which is most people.
Do note that at least one Solarion example (Outlaw) took that feat for longarms, which they do not normally get. So they had to purchase proficiency with the feat first.
But also, the sniper example for the soldier took Weapon Spec for sniper weapons, despite the fact that they already get it at 3rd.
So, if various class features give proficiency but not a feat granting proficiency.... Where are the rules for proficiency defined outside of feats? Since logically if you are getting proficiency from somewhere other than the feats, you can't use the feats as a rules source for what proficiency does.
This sounds like a fuzzy writing loophole to ignore prerequisites, but doesn't have much basis in the rules
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So, if various class features give proficiency but not a feat granting proficiency.... Where are the rules for proficiency defined outside of feats? Since logically if you are getting proficiency from somewhere other than the feats, you can't use the feats as a rules source for what proficiency does.
This sounds like a fuzzy writing loophole to ignore prerequisites, but doesn't have much basis in the rules
What? Read p. 242-243. They tell you exactly what Proficiencies do with no references to Feats at all except the line I quoted under Powered Armor. Indeed, they refer to Classes as pretty much the sole way to get Proficiencies.
Indeed, none of the Proficiency Feats actually have rules text beyond 'look at the rules on p. 242 or 243' or something like that.
Now, interestingly, the Weapon Specialization all Classes get for free at 3rd, is explicitly called out as bonus Feats, so anyone with at least three categories of Weapon Proficiencuy from Class does auto-qualify for Adaptive Fighting at 3rd level...but not until then.That's everyone except the mystic and technomancer. They only get two, so they need one more combat feat to qualify for adaptive fighting.
Except you cannot gain Specialization in grenades, if I remember right. SO technically, Envoy, Mechanic, erm... can't think of what else off the etop of my head, would need to get another combat feat as well.