Shirren Gender Pronouns

[Indi523]

Wikrin wrote:

Ambrosia Slaad wrote:

Absolutely No to "it". Shirren are sentient humanoids with three genders. They are not things or constructs. "It" is insulting.

I'd actually think it better to come up with three entirely new pronouns for the shirren. Shirren have sperm donors, egg donors, and hosts that also donate additional genetic material. That doesn't really map well to human players' concepts, and so using he/she/they makes the shirren seem less alien. We as players shouldn't box/shorthand shirren neatly into masculine, feminine, and other which I think is what he/she/they puts in the minds of most players.

I think three entirely new pronouns works better. I think it also has the added bonus of letting the players attach their own concepts of personality and social/familial dynamics to individual shirren free of preconceptions and stereotypes based on 21st-century humanity.

They have three sexes. I don't think it mentions gender at all. They may have a singular gender, for all we know. Considering they were all part of the Swarm, I don't see that as particularly unlikely. It's possible they may have rank/role-based pronouns, rather than gender/sex-based ones. If hosts are held in high regard (as implied by their use of the word "queen"), it might also be that they get an honorific, or that their pronoun is seen as something special that others cannot gain access to without changing their sex. I wonder if they wouldn't then have problems with people trying to use the shift to gain station, or as a means of expressing individuality? Hm. Willing to bet that shirren are more likely to use sex and appearance shift serums as a means of self-expression than other races.

(Edit: If they are effectively "genderless," they may see the shift as primarily one of aesthetics. It's an interesting question that I think is over-simplified by just assigning their "other" sex with new pronouns. I think using three pronouns over-complicates the issue, though, and risks running into the trope where... I...

You forget that they are insects and insects die off after they mate and or give birth to the young especially the males who are probably the meal for the female after the sex act. So what does it matter

[Deadmanwalking]

Indi523 wrote:

You forget that they are insects and insects die off after they mate and or give birth to the young especially the males who are probably the meal for the female after the sex act. So what does it matter

Huh? This is super untrue. There are a couple of insect species that die like this, but not many. And the female eating the male thing only happens in mantises to my knowledge, and only if they're highly stressed.

Plus, Shirren are fine after mating. As demonstrated by the Iconic and his spouses.

[Tacticslion]

It happens with some spiders, too, but those are arachnids, not insects.

[Deadmanwalking]

Tacticslion wrote:

It happens with some spiders, too, but those are arachnids, not insects.

I was aware of this, but left it out due to the 'not insects' thing.

[The Sword]

The best suggestion so far was to drop the pronoun entires and insist on names being used to identify the subject every time.

[Chris Lambertz]

Removed a post. We do not live in a fictional timeline where words do not carry weight or exist in a vacuum. It is inappropriate to equivocate fictional realities with our own in this way and dismiss others who point out that usage of certain words in this context is considered to be offensive. Referring to individuals as "it" at this point in the discussion is intentionally baiting, and there are explanations upthread as to why. Take a moment to read over our Community Guidelines before continuing to post in this thread.

[KingOfAnything]

I prefer to think that the Shirren have a variety of genders based on the role (or lack thereof) an individual prefers to play in the rearing of children. That system is too complex for most Pact Worlders, so they use pronouns based on their sex in Common.

[Unreliable Narrator]

KingOfAnything wrote:

I prefer to think that the Shirren have a variety of genders based on the role (or lack thereof) an individual prefers to play in the rearing of children. That system is too complex for most Pact Worlders, so they use pronouns based on their sex in Common.

.

Keskodai: {telepathically} *I've tried explaining our pronouns and honorifics to the humans multiple times, but it never seems to stick. Trust me, Chk-Chk, it's just easier to use their own pronouns as a bodge.*
Chk Chk: *[CENSORED]*
Keskodai: *WHAT?! No, they don't go through instars; they always look like that. And stop repeating new words from Quig!*

[Ravingdork]

*Throws on cold weather outfit before stepping into the blizzard.*

Why use "they" as opposed to a more unique pronoun? "They" gets confusing as it generally is used in regard to pluralities. Reading things like "They is" is also positively headache inducing!

[MageHunter]

They is simply the most abundant and simplest one for people to learn. We all use it like that anyways, it is generally the safest one, and the easiest to get used to.

[Alabaster Scarf]

CrystalSeas wrote:

Jaçinto wrote:

It is grammatically correct.

Not according to the Starfinder AP.

If you want to make up something different for your home games, of course you can do whatever you like. But if you're playing SFS, it's officially "they, their, themselves"

To that end, why didn't Paizo use gender-neutral pronouns throughout the Core Rulebook? It seems odd to focus so much on inclusivity and make the decision to use almost exclusively feminine pronouns.

[CrystalSeas]

Alabaster Scarf wrote:

use almost exclusively feminine pronouns.

If you go back and look carefully, you'll see that they alternate masculine and feminine pronouns. The pronouns are balanced so that neither gender is predominant.

Of course, if you're used to primarily masculine pronouns being used, when things are balanced, it may seem a bit strange to you. But that's only because you're used to seeing mostly male pronouns.

[Alabaster Scarf]

CrystalSeas wrote:

Alabaster Scarf wrote:

use almost exclusively feminine pronouns.

If you go back and look carefully, you'll see that they alternate masculine and feminine pronouns. The pronouns are balanced so that neither gender is predominant.

Of course, if you're used to primarily masculine pronouns being used, when things are balanced, it may seem a bit strange to you. But that's only because you're used to seeing mostly male pronouns.

It may have just been the parts I've read so far. I've mostly been looking through character creation and tactical, so maybe those are the bits. I'm used to seeing 'they/them' because I mostly read formal stuff. It is nice to crack open a fresh new rulebook. Starfinder even has that new RPG smell!

[Set]

Alabaster Scarf wrote:

To that end, why didn't Paizo use gender-neutral pronouns throughout the Core Rulebook? It seems odd to focus so much on inclusivity and make the decision to use almost exclusively feminine pronouns.

And now I'm having flashbacks to White Wolf. They also alternated, 50/50 between the male and female pronouns, and every month someone would come to the forums to complain about how they only used female pronouns and it was off-putting. Apparently, we (dudes) get so used to seeing *only* the male pronoun that even a totally balanced use of half male and half female comes across as 'too much female.'

(Of course it was never quite perfectly 50/50. Sometimes a chapter would have an odd number of gendered references, and therefore one would get one more mention than the other, or, since they wouldn't change gender mid-example, since that would be confusing, an example referencing a sample character of one gender might maunder on for half a page, describing someone taking a complex action or using a fiddly power with lots of moving bits, while the next one is a brief one-and-done...)

[Ravingdork]

CrystalSeas wrote:

Alabaster Scarf wrote:

use almost exclusively feminine pronouns.

If you go back and look carefully, you'll see that they alternate masculine and feminine pronouns. The pronouns are balanced so that neither gender is predominant.

Of course, if you're used to primarily masculine pronouns being used, when things are balanced, it may seem a bit strange to you. But that's only because you're used to seeing mostly male pronouns.

Wow. What a waste of an editor's time! That work could have gone into finding and fixing more of the game's bugs, which I imagine would have a much higher impact on the player base than balancing gender pronouns.

[Lordwakkawakka]

I don't understand why they is so confusing. Like, Most Non-Binary humans I've met in the real world use they/them pronouns or they mix it up. I really don't understand whats so odd about the singular they.

[thejeff]

Ravingdork wrote:

CrystalSeas wrote:

Alabaster Scarf wrote:

use almost exclusively feminine pronouns.

If you go back and look carefully, you'll see that they alternate masculine and feminine pronouns. The pronouns are balanced so that neither gender is predominant.

Of course, if you're used to primarily masculine pronouns being used, when things are balanced, it may seem a bit strange to you. But that's only because you're used to seeing mostly male pronouns.

Wow. What a waste of an editor's time! That work could have gone into finding and fixing more of the game's bugs, which I imagine would have a much higher impact on the player base than balancing gender pronouns.

How much time does it take? Does it take more time to use feminine pronouns than masculine ones?

You know, they did something similar in PF too, right? Referring to classes by the pronoun of the iconic.

[Set]

Ravingdork wrote:

Wow. What a waste of an editor's time! That work could have gone into finding and fixing more of the game's bugs, which I imagine would have a much higher impact on the player base than balancing gender pronouns.

Having edited (for White Wolf, once), I can assure you it takes zero time, *because I was reading it anyway,* and has zero effect on balance/playtesting/'bug fixes', which happens at a developmental level, not an editor level.

The *writer* is the one who might have to spend an entire second or two remembering that the last example used he/his, and so this next one should use she/hers, but it's not like rocket science or anything, unless that writer is an alien from a six-gendered or genderless species, and doesn't really grok the whole concept.

[Ambrosia Slaad]

Set wrote:

...unless that writer is an alien from a six-gendered or genderless species, and doesn't really grok the whole concept.

I see what you did there. :)