|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
Hello, so I'm playing a sorc necromancer and had an idea pop-up from reviewing my list of spells. If I could managed to make my character undead. Does anyone see it to be impossible to use sculpt corpse as a substitute for alter self through the rules and all? From what I understand of the spell the Target is "one dead creature touched." By technical standards undead is considered a dead creature, corpse, and/or dead body with the primal instincts to feed on all that is living unless controlled. Also for argument sake, if there is one, if something had life sense the undead would not pop-up on that radar. I also looked googled the definition for undead to get the raw understanding of the word and it also tells me "technically dead but still animate."
Been doing a lot of research for my character as you can see and just wanted to get a more experienced players opinion on the topic.
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
BLUF: I would say to expect table variation and, as always, to talk to your GM. As a GM, I would probably not allow it.
You're right that an undead creature is a dead creature that has been animated somehow (in Pathfinder, that would be negative energy, unless I'm mistaken). I think the big determination comes down to what you think about "undead" being a "dead" creature.
As a game, I think the rules make a distinction between living creatures, dead creatures, and undead creatures. By that logic, since the spell makes no mention of affecting undead I would say it doesn't, since by game rules, an undead creature is not the same thing as a dead creature.
I think a case could be made from a more narrative perspective that undead could shift their appearance with this spell because they are in many cases walking corpses, and, you know, dead.
I think one important thing to note is that they compare it to other spells that affect corpses, such as Speak with Dead or Raise Dead, both which are listed as not affecting undead creatures (which, depending on your reading, could be a point for or against allowing it to work on an undead creature).
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
See, and that's what I've been trying to look for is that distinction. I couldn't really find anything specific on a line of difference from them. Which brought about this questions. Also from past research in other topics, what I have noticed is that this game is very bold on what is not allowed. So I've come across the assumption is that if the game doesn't state that you can't do it, then that brings opportunity for creativity and ingenuity.
Now I get what you are coming from with the other two spells but from reading the spells the only comparison you have is the Target requirements. Which is "one dead creature." Also from reading the spell Speak with Dead it specifically states it can't be used on a corpse that has been turned into an undead creature. Same with Raise Undead, it also states that it can't be used on a creature that has been turned into an undead creature. Sculpt corpse only states that spells or effects that target the corpse under the influence of this spell treats it as if it still had its original appearance. So it never really says it can't be used on an undead creature like the other two spells it gives as example to it's statement.
There is the counter point that, at least in previous editions, it was widely accepted that a vain undead (especially liches) would use gentle repose on themselves to preserve their looks. Whether this has been fluff/lore-approved in PF/Golarion or not, I can't really say.
As a very random aside, I once had a campaign that consistently used reincarnate. In it, I had a wizard character that kept dying. The way the spell was used was always a piece taken off of the deceased was the focus; thus, he collected his own corpses (and used gentle repose on them) right up until he (magically) sliced them into pieces and spliced it together with a wyvern the party had just killed to make a flesh golem of mostly himself and a few wyvern pieces. This did nothing, mechanically, it just made him happy. He referred to it as "<wizard's name> Jr." and generally loved it very much - in preference to his own half-elven child, in fact...
An undead creature is not a dead creature. That is what the 'un' part means.
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
I think in the end it comes down to a GMs call. RAW, I think it would affect undead if it said "undead creature" in the target line, like it does in a spell like Repair Undead. I did a search of spells real quick and usually it doesn't say "dead creature" it says "corpse". I think you could also make the case that Pathfinder is a permissive rule set and it says nothing about NOT affecting undead, undead are, you know, dead, and it should affect them. It comes down to the GM.
While thinking about this answer, I also saw a similar comment about Gentle Repose and undead. Gentle Repose targets a corpse, but I feel like I've seen references to Gentle Repose on an undead character. That might be a good litmus test for your GM. If a Gentle Repose effect keeps a zombie from decaying, then Sculpt Corpse should also work on undead.
I'll revise a prior statement I made. I would not allow this spell to shape undead by RAW. If you were playing in my game and had an idea for an undead sorcerer who went around changing his appearance to avoid being discovered, we'd run with it. But I don't think you're going to get a truly firm answer that will stand up to table variation.
Edit: Looks like I was ninja'd on the Gentle Repose comparison. :)
Well, I think everyone here can agree it works on a lich:
Quote: In fantasy fiction, a lich (/ˈlɪtʃ/;[1] from Old English 'līċ' meaning 'corpse') ;D
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
Lich is going to be my go to for achieving undead. Of course im going through all the hoops to trying to make that possible and earn the right from my GM. As far as the comment for undead not being dead. Very much debatable. Although they are walking around and such, with my comment earlier, life sense would not pick them up. Therefore they are by definition dead even within the real worlds definition of undead. The only thing that can completely change my perspective on that is paizo's ruling on their own definition on that matter. Unfortunately I fail to find one. I completely understand how repair undead specifically targets undead, which comes really close to changing my perspective there but again that is just another more narrowed down target requirement for that spell alone. But this conversation has help me with finding an answer to this and I'm understanding paizo a bit with their blanks they leave us at. It just has to come down to GM's discretion, considering the game is his world. Thanks for your guy's thought's and opinions, it does help.
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
Tacticslion wrote: There is the counter point that, at least in previous editions, it was widely accepted that a vain undead (especially liches) would use gentle repose on themselves to preserve their looks. Whether this has been fluff/lore-approved in PF/Golarion or not, I can't really say.
Unguent of Revivification's description says yes.
deuxhero wrote: Tacticslion wrote: There is the counter point that, at least in previous editions, it was widely accepted that a vain undead (especially liches) would use gentle repose on themselves to preserve their looks. Whether this has been fluff/lore-approved in PF/Golarion or not, I can't really say.
Unguent of Revivification's description says yes. Linked. Neat! Thanks!
|
