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Is a character allowed to attack with a two-handed weapon or make two attacks with dual-wielded weapons and then also add a kick attack?
Would that be treated as two weapon fighting as if the kick was another "off-hand"?
Would Unarmed Strike be required?
Yes, but you'd need a level of Monk (or a class/archetype that gives the Monk's Unarmed Strike class feature). Unarmed Strikes can normally only be used with your fists, the Monk ability is what lets you use any part of your body.
Yes, but you'd need a level of Monk (or a class/archetype that gives the Monk's Unarmed Strike class feature). Unarmed Strikes can normally only be used with your fists, the Monk ability is what lets you use any part of your body.
You don't need Monk levels, actually(Though it certainly makes you much better at unarmed attacks if you have them):
Unarmed Attacks: Striking for damage with punches, kicks, and head butts is much like attacking with a melee weapon, except for the following:
Attacks of Opportunity: Attacking unarmed provokes an attack of opportunity from the character you attack, provided she is armed. The attack of opportunity comes before your attack. An unarmed attack does not provoke attacks of opportunity from other foes, nor does it provoke an attack of opportunity from an unarmed foe.
An unarmed character can't take attacks of opportunity (but see “Armed” Unarmed Attacks, below).
“Armed” Unarmed Attacks: Sometimes a character's or creature's unarmed attack counts as an armed attack. A monk, a character with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, a spellcaster delivering a touch attack spell, and a creature with natural physical weapons all count as being armed (see natural attacks).
Note that being armed counts for both offense and defense (the character can make attacks of opportunity).
Unarmed Strike Damage: An unarmed strike from a Medium character deals 1d3 points of bludgeoning damage (plus your Strength modifier, as normal). A Small character's unarmed strike deals 1d2 points of bludgeoning damage, while a Large character's unarmed strike deals 1d4 points of bludgeoning damage. All damage from unarmed strikes is nonlethal damage. Unarmed strikes count as light weapons (for purposes of two-weapon attack penalties and so on).
Dealing Lethal Damage: You can specify that your unarmed strike will deal lethal damage before you make your attack roll, but you take a –4 penalty on your attack roll. If you have the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, you can deal lethal damage with an unarmed strike without taking a penalty on the attack roll.
What are the penalties for adding an extra unarmed attack in with your regular weapon attacks?
Same penalties as Two-Weapon Fighting normally. Unarmed Strikes would count as light weapons, so -4/-8 without the feat and -2/-2 with it.
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No, you can't.
This FAQ, more or less, prevents it.
Now, there are no written rules that prevent it, Devs have said that unwritten rules prevent it, and as such, the FAQ exists.
The Sea-knife, and Barbazu Beard are the only ways, currently, to accomplish two-weapon fighting, with a two-handed weapon.
Having four arms doesn't actually give you more offhand attacks either, btw.
A creature is allowed a single offhand attack regardless of body configuration, unless you have special rules such as ITWF.
Having 4 arms actually does give you more offhands. You need a special rule, like you have with vestigial arms, to NOT gain those extra offhands.
Having 4 arms actually does give you more offhands. You need a special rule, like you have with vestigial arms, to NOT gain those extra offhands.Having four arms doesn't actually give you more offhand attacks either, btw.
A creature is allowed a single offhand attack regardless of body configuration, unless you have special rules such as ITWF.
Yes it does by every statblock Paizo uses with multilimbed monsters that use weapons. Now there should be a written rule for this but the RAI is clear.
PRD: advanced race guide.
"Multi-Armed (4 RP): Prerequisites: None; Benefit: Members of this race possess three arms. A member of this race can wield multiple weapons, but only one hand is its primary hand, and all others are off hands. It can also use its hands for other purposes that require free hands. Special: This trait can be taken up to twice. When it is taken a second time, the race gains a fourth arm."
THIS is how races gain arms and by DEFAULT they gain "one hand is its primary hand, and all others are off hands". It's a build in aspect of having extra arms not a bonus feature you need in addition to having those arms.
EDIT: This would be the rule wraithstrike.
To my knowledge, the only thing that lets you use a two-handed weapon and make an off-hand attack is Thunderstriker, the fighter archetype that lets you use a two-handed weapon and a buckler to do two-weapon fighting.
To my knowledge, the only thing that lets you use a two-handed weapon and make an off-hand attack is Thunderstriker, the fighter archetype that lets you use a two-handed weapon and a buckler to do two-weapon fighting.
Check out the sea knife and the barbazu beard. they say "a warrior could combine use of a barbazu beard with a two-handed weapon." "This allows the wielder to use a two-handed weapon, or wield a weapon with one hand and carry a shield, and still make off-hand attacks with the sea-knife"
Before the unwritten rules FAQ, it was normal to allow non-hand offhand attacks with two handed weapons.
So no to kicking if you are dual wielding but yes if using a 2-handed weapon?
So no to kicking if you are dual wielding but yes if using a 2-handed weapon?
no it's no to both with the FAQ that blackbloodtroll linked
multi-armed special quality?
As shown in the advanced race guide, the multi-armed ability grants extra arms. Those extra arms grant the extra off hands.
Multiweapon Fighting also shows this. "Normal: A creature without this feat takes a –6 penalty on attacks made with its primary hand and a –10 penalty on attacks made with all of its off hands. (It has one primary hand, and all the others are off hands.)" The default is every extra arm grants an extra offhand. The feat requires three or more hands, not the "multi-armed special quality".
So no to kicking if you are dual wielding but yes if using a 2-handed weapon?
Nope, the unwritten rules say no...
So no to kicking if you are dual wielding but yes if using a 2-handed weapon?no it's no to both with the FAQ that blackbloodtroll linked
The FAQ was talking about hands, not feet. It said you could not use your hands for unarmed attacks. No mention of feet, elbows, knees, or headbutts.
Yes it does by every statblock Paizo uses with multilimbed monsters that use weapons. Now there should be a written rule for this but the RAI is clear.Having 4 arms actually does give you more offhands. You need a special rule, like you have with vestigial arms, to NOT gain those extra offhands.Having four arms doesn't actually give you more offhand attacks either, btw.
A creature is allowed a single offhand attack regardless of body configuration, unless you have special rules such as ITWF.
Can you give an example of a multi-limbed monster that uses weapons which doesn't have the multi-armed special quality?
If they automatically received extra offhand attacks due to having more arms, they wouldn't need this special quality in the first place.
Therev are a few. As soon as I get home I will do it.
Byakko: Where does the "consumes your off hand" rule come from?
multi-armed special quality?As shown in the advanced race guide, the multi-armed ability grants extra arms. Those extra arms grant the extra off hands.
Multiweapon Fighting also shows this. "Normal: A creature without this feat takes a –6 penalty on attacks made with its primary hand and a –10 penalty on attacks made with all of its off hands. (It has one primary hand, and all the others are off hands.)" The default is every extra arm grants an extra offhand. The feat requires three or more hands, not the "multi-armed special quality".
This doesn't change anything I've said.
If a creature were created which had 4 arms but lacked the multi-armed special quality (or some other rules text allowing it to acquire additional offhand attacks) it would still be limited to a single offhand attack.
I think you missed the point. You can't GET 4 arms without the multi-armed special quality. "Benefit: Members of this race possess three arms." "When it is taken a second time, the race gains a fourth arm."
So it's not that a race requires the quality to use it's offhands, it NEEDS the quality to get 3+ arms/hands that automatically come with offhands.
Second, the Multiweapon Fighting feat clearly shows that the normal state of things is that having 3+ arms grants an extra off hand per extra arm and does NOT require anything else. How else do you explain the normal section of that feat?
Byakko: Where does the "consumes your off hand" rule come from?
That FAQ they posted. It an unwritten rule they came up with, so you aren't going to find it anywhere else.
Byakko: Where does the "consumes your off hand" rule come from? That FAQ they posted. It an unwritten rule they came up with, so you aren't going to find it anywhere else.
Isn't that the same thing as saying there is no rule, it's just good manners? Seems odd when discussing combat.
graystone, with all the strange and funky monsters out there, you don't think it's possible for a monster to be created with an extra arm that doesn't actually give it another attack in combat?
The ARG gives a clear set of rules on how races are made with extra arms/hands. It's clearly states how it works. Multiweapon attacks are also clearly spelled out in the feat. I think if "strange and funky monsters" are created that don't follow the rules and have arms that aren't fully functional that it would be special and pointed out instead of extra arms being special and having to be pointed out that they work as normal arms/hands.
Case in point is the Trox. It has Grabbing appendages:
"Grabbing Appendages (6 RP): Benefit: Members of this race have a small group of appendages that are useful for little more than to aid in grappling. Members of this race gain Improved Grapple as a bonus feat, and can maintain a grapple and still make attacks with their main appendages." Hey have multiple vestigial arms that don't act as normal arms and are called out as such. I'd expect other types of vestigial arms to be called out too.
Byakko: Where does the "consumes your off hand" rule come from? That FAQ they posted. It an unwritten rule they came up with, so you aren't going to find it anywhere else.Isn't that the same thing as saying there is no rule, it's just good manners? Seems odd when discussing combat.
No written rule so the FAQ follow that unwritten rule that only exists in the minds of the DEV's, their unofficial forum posts and that single FAQ.
Ah well, in the end it doesn't really matter as monsters are allowed to break the rules and generally have all their attacks listed anyway. As long as players understand that if their character acquires a new limb, it doesn't automatically grant them more attacks, it's all good.
Most of the ways to gain an extra limb will point out if grants an extra attack or not so this shouldn't be much of an issue. About the only grey area I can think of is a polymorph effects into multiarmed creatures.
The issue is that PC's are supposed to be limited by that offhand rule which works until you get a PC wirh 4 arms. Now you have 2 unwritten rules muddying the waters. Just to be clear I am stating RAI. Anyone arguing RAW should be clear so as to avoid confusion. No I am not home yet.
The issue is that PC's are supposed to be limited by that offhand rule which works until you get a PC wirh 4 arms. Now you have 2 unwritten rules muddying the waters. Just to be clear I am stating RAI. Anyone arguing RAW should be clear so as to avoid confusion. No I am not home yet.
Me, I'm debating RAW. I understand that the current DEV's see the 2 'hands of effort' as the intended norm for PC's but this makes me curious why they think that way and then add a race that breaks that assumption. It seems quite contradictory.
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Before the ARG came out no special ability was needed to give monsters off-hand attacks for every arm. However no errata has come out to say that it is needed now.
What we have is multi-weapon fighting, which reduces penalties if you use multiple off-hand attacks. This feat even says that it replaces the TWF feat if a creature would normally have two weapon fighting. We also have multiweapon mastery, which allows you to use multiple off-hand attacks with no penalties to the off-hand attacks. Neither of these abilities however give you extra off-hand attacks to use, and it has been that way for years. So it is obvious that if the D&D or PF devs thought that creatures needed an ability to gain extra-offhand attacks it would have been created.
However some will say that the ARG is a change in the rules, but there is no rulestext to say this is a requirement for every monster. What we know is that the ARG which came out around June of 2012 was used to make the Kasatha. What we also know is that Pathfinder AP 56 was being developed around the same time, and they tacked 4 arms onto a sahuagin, and it has multiweapon mastery, but it does not have Multi-Armed. The only race that has it is the kasatha, likely as a way to allow those using the ARG to make a PC with 4 arms. The ability did not even exist until that(ARG) book was made.
We also have the maralith and xill, two iconic monsters who no longer function if one is to believe it is dev intent to require multi-armed.
We also have these monsters
This monster was in Skulls and Shackles book 2 which came out around the same time as the ARG, so it is not like the ability was not unheard of yet it was not used.
Here is the sahuagin stackblock
In the monster codex(a newer book) we have a spell that makes a sahuagin have 4 arms, and it grants multiweapon fighting, and multiattack as feats. However it does not grant multi-armed so if extra arms do not automatically grant more off-hand attacks then the devs are not following the rules even in newer books.
Here is another monster created for Carrion Crown.
4 armed undead thingy
It also does not have multi-armed, but it does have multi-weapon mastery as a bonus feat. No the ability did not exist then, but it does show once again the multiple arms equal more off-hand attacks. Otherwise it could not qualify for the feat.
Now someone did mention antiquated rules so have a monster that came out in bestiary 4, which is after the ARG
shobhad
This monster has multi-weapon fighting as feat, which it could not wield multiple weapons, but it does not have multi-armed.
Basically no monster except for one uses multi-armed. Every other monster, even newer ones use multiple-weapons, and either has a feat or special ability, and statblock showing it is not needed. There was even a spell listed.
What Paizo needs to do to clear this up is just say that PC's races with the feat can't use multiple-offhand attacks. The eidolon while being a class feature is still not a PC race so it should not need this. They can also say that it should be assumed that every race with multiple arms has the trait, but so far the monster history is not showing that every creature is limited to one off-hand attacks.
The issue is that PC's are supposed to be limited by that offhand rule which works until you get a PC wirh 4 arms. Now you have 2 unwritten rules muddying the waters. Just to be clear I am stating RAI. Anyone arguing RAW should be clear so as to avoid confusion. No I am not home yet.Me, I'm debating RAW. I understand that the current DEV's see the 2 'hands of effort' as the intended norm for PC's but this makes me curious why they think that way and then add a race that breaks that assumption. It seems quite contradictory.
I agree that it does not make sense. If PC's are not supposed to be able to do it then just don't make it, or at least put a warning out saying "allow at your own risk" to GM's.
edit: They may have such a warning now that I think about it. I will check the book that the Kasatha is in.
edit 2: I see there is no warning in the "People Beyond the Stars" book. I guess them saying they are a 20 point race is supposed to be the warning.
wraithstrike, thanks for your research.
It looks like monsters and PCs are kinda playing by different rules when it comes to offhand attacks.
Btw, does this mean that one of these 4-armed races could:
Equip a shield in their "main hand",
perform a series of unarmed strikes with kicks,
add 3 offhand attacks with their 3 "off hands",
and finish by tacking on any natural attacks they have?Hmn.
kicks being being unarmed strikes count as iterative attacks so you would get your those, and the 3 off-hand attacks, and any natural attacks that are not using the limbs you used to make any normal attacks with. As an example if you had claw attacks and you used your off-hand attacks to punch the you do not get those claw attacks, but if you had tentacles and/or a bite attack as an example you would get those.
wraithstrike, thanks for your research.
It looks like monsters and PCs are kinda playing by different rules when it comes to offhand attacks.
Btw, does this mean that one of these 4-armed races could:
Equip a shield in their "main hand",
perform a series of unarmed strikes with kicks,
add 3 offhand attacks with their 3 "off hands",
and finish by tacking on any natural attacks they have?Hmn.
For the same reason you aren't allowed to do TWF and off hand attacks in the FAQ, you would be limited with the unarmed strikes and "offhand" kicks no? Then you have to get into where the natural attacks are located. If they are claws on the ends of the arms, using the limbs for unarmed strikes would remove the ability to use the claws on those limbs.
Yes it should be able to make off-hand attack with a kick as they are still metaphysical, but that would mean it take away an offhand "hand" attack.
Yes his total offhand attacks still count as being used even when not using a "hand".
So, your conclusion is that a creature with 4 arms gets 3 offhand attacks... even if it's not actually using its arms to attack?
Time to break out a Kasatha brawler wearing 4 shields. The adventurers may laugh now, but just wait... they're going to have some seriously sore shins!
(I know shield bonuses don't stack. Move along.)
Yes. The rules for off-hand attacks apply when not using "hands". That is how spiked armor works, so if you had 3 extra hands you could hold a shield, use spiked armor, and use a weapon in one of your empty hands.