Incorporeal CMD?


Rules Questions

Scarab Sages

Incorporeal says they have no Str, and use Dex for CMB, but doesn't address Stats used for CMD.

Looking at the PFS legal Ghost Spike and I'm trying to figure out the CMD of ghosts and such.

Looking at the Wraith from Bestiary 1, looks like they are adding dex instead of Str for CMD, but I'm not sure why.

Second opinion..?

Sovereign Court

Normally CMD is 10 + BAB + Str + Dex.

It's the same for incorporeal creatures. The undefined Strength modifier is simply not added.

Incorporeal add their Charisma as a Deflection bonus to AC, and Deflection bonuses are added to CMD as well. That explains the wraith's CMD of 21:

10 + 3BAB + 3Dex +5Cha = 21

Incorporeal creatures tend to have startlingly high CMD scores.

Scarab Sages

Ascalaphus wrote:

Normally CMD is 10 + BAB + Str + Dex.

It's the same for incorporeal creatures. The undefined Strength modifier is simply not added.

Incorporeal add their Charisma as a Deflection bonus to AC, and Deflection bonuses are added to CMD as well. That explains the wraith's CMD of 21:

10 + 3BAB + 3Dex +5Cha = 21

Incorporeal creatures tend to have startlingly high CMD scores.

I would have thought a non-existant Str score would count as Str 0, and thus being a -6 to CMD. But, yeah, I suppose they are probably doing it your way (not sure why...).


Non-existent stats are almost always treated as having a 10 (no penalty or bonus) for all calculations.

Scarab Sages

Claxon wrote:
Non-existent stats are almost always treated as having a 10 (no penalty or bonus) for all calculations.

How strange. Oh well, thanks for the help (you and Ascalaphus)

Sovereign Court

Claxon wrote:
Non-existent stats are almost always treated as having a 10 (no penalty or bonus) for all calculations.

Yeah, that's the usual practice. I know it's written somewhere but couldn't find the quote.


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Some creatures do not possess a Strength score and have no modifier at all to Strength-based skills or checks.


Just realised you are talking about CMD, you always add both your strength modifier and your dex modifier to CMD - it's not an either/or - so the wraith CMD is correct.

(yeah, sometimes my brain takes a while to catch up...)

Sovereign Court

dragonhunterq wrote:
Some creatures do not possess a Strength score and have no modifier at all to Strength-based skills or checks.

That's the one.

Same logic as for creatures with no Constitution score, like constructs; they don't apply a -5 HP/level penalty for having 0 Con.

"Undefined" isn't the same a 0, it's just "not there at all".


if you wana make incorporeal undead really spooky give them one level of unchained scaled fist monk :)

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