Sap Master Rogue 13th Level: Am I adding this correctly?


Advice


Okay, so I was building a glass cannon Rogue who's main purpose is to sneak up behind someone unnoticed, catch them flat-footed and deal enough damage to obliterate anything around the same Hit Dice. I got to 13th level and began adding the dice, and I think I'm either onto something ridiculous, or just bad at math. If someone could check me, that'd be sweet. Or if you think you can make it even more ridiculous please inform me as well.
Goal: "I may die in 1 hit, but so will you!"

13th Level, straight Rogue, Race: Drow

Rolled Stats
STR: 14
DEX: 18
CON: 14
INT: 13
WIS: 12
CHA: 9

Modified Stats (After Levels & Race)
STR: 14
DEX: 23
CON: 12
INT: 13
WIS: 12
CHA: 13
Starter gold: 140k
Weapons: Dual wielding Speedy Stalking Sap (+5 weapons = 100k gold)

Level 1 Feat: Two-Weapon Fighting

2nd Level Rogue Talent: Finesse Rogue

Level 3 Feat: Sap Adept

4th Level Rogue Talent: Surprise Attack

Level 5 Feat: Sap Master

6th Level Rogue Talent: Offensive Defense

Level 7 Feat: Extra Rogue Talent

Extra Rogue Talent: Powerful Sneak

8th Level Rogue Talent: Ki Pool

Level 9 Feat: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting

10th Level Advanced Rogue Talent: Deadly Sneak

Level 11 Feat: Extra Rogue Talent
Extra Rogue Talent => Advanced Rogue Talent: Improved Evasion

12th Level Advanced Rogue Talent: Hunter's Surprise

Level 13 Feat: Extra Rogue Talent
Extra Rogue Talent => Advanced Rogue Talent: Master Trick
Ninja Advanced Trick: Ghost Step

Reasons for Ki Pool & Ghost Step: Pure Flavor. I think it'd be kinda cool for a rogue to sneak up, bap someone in the back of the head, and then phase through a wall, but maybe that's just me.

So here's my Math:
Sneak Attack at 13th Level: 7d6 +7 (+7 from Sap Adept)
On Flat Footed enemy damage becomes: 14d6 +14
Damage Dealt by Sap: 1d6 + 2 for main hand
1d6 + 1 for off-hand
Study the target for 10 rounds and add 5d6 damage on each sap

Attack bonuses (which suck I know): +11/+11/+6 (because speedy) for each sap (Using Deadly sneak for -2 to hit all 1's and 2's become 3's)

Unaware target who is flatfooted, if a full-attack action is available, should receive the following damage if all hits connect correct?

3*(1d6 +2 + 14d6 + 14) + 5d6 + 3*(1d6 +1 + 14d6 + 14) + 5d6

for a disgusting total(if they all hit) of:
3*(15d6 + 16) + 3*(15d6 + 15) + 10d6
45d6 + 48 + 45d6 + 45 + 10d6

100d6 + 93 and 1's and 2's count as 3's

Minimum damage there is 393 and max is 693 if you hit with all your attacks (which is unlikely but hey he's a glass cannon that can't hit often but if he does, it's a whallop)

Note: This is all non-lethal damage and is useless against opponents that can't be caught flat-footed. I realize this.

Is this correct? Am I reading one of the abilities wrong and adding it up incorrectly? Or is this complete ridiculousness actually legal?


I haven't read through everything yet, but the firs thing I noticed is you're calling out 2 saps with the speed and stalking special abilities.

However, speed will give you only 1 extra attack, it's basically like having haste. Having speed on both weapons is a waste.

Also, flat-footed only occurs on the first turn of combat before the enemy has acted (unless you have some other method of causing them to become flat-footed). Being invisible or being hidden doesn't cause flat-footed (though it does deny dex to AC). It's also worth noting that on your first attack, you break stealth or invisibility (if you have it) and your subsequent attacks are no longer sneak attacks. Unless you have some other way to cause denied dex/flat-footed (or flanking) you will only get sneak attack on one attack.

I don't have time to do the mathematical breakdown, but deadly sneak is a terrible talent that actually decreases your damage on average. Don't use it. Also, at level 13 your attack bonus is so incredibly terrible you will almost never hit anything. At level 13 your going to be fighting things with an average AC of 28. On your best attack you need to roll a 17 to hit. Meaning you only have a 20% chance to hit with your best attack.

It's also worth remembering that in the first round of combat, you're usually going to have to move to your enemy so you wont get to full attack them. You'll get one attack with sneak attack damage.


Also, you're calculating weapon costs wrong.

You need a +6 weapon on each hand, because you must first have a +1 before you can apply special abilities. You need a +1 stalking speed sap. Of course, you don't want speed on the second hand because it wont do you any good.

Also, you're using stalking wrong, or at least you appear to be using it wrong.

It adds a number of d6 equal to the rounds studied, up to the enhancement bonus of the weapon. With a +1 enhancement bonus only, you only get 1 bonus die max. Also, the damage only applies on the first successful attack with that weapon.

It's not clear exactly how you're calculating it, but it definitely looks like you're calculating it incorrectly to me.


To make opponents flat footed, you are probably going to want to do it with an intimidate/shatter defenses build.

This requires weapon focus, dazzling display, shatter defenses and some mechanism to intimidate as a free/swift like enforcer or cornugon smash.


Also, if the +1 stalking speed sap costs 72,000gp of your 140,000gp for a 13th level character.

Slightly more than half your wealth by level, something you're not supposed to do.

Quote:
Table: Character Wealth by Level can also be used to budget gear for characters starting above 1st level, such as a new character created to replace a dead one. Characters should spend no more than half their total wealth on any single item. For a balanced approach, PCs that are built after 1st level should spend no more than 25% of their wealth on weapons, 25% on armor and protective devices, 25% on other magic items, 15% on disposable items like potions, scrolls, and wands, and 10% on ordinary gear and coins. Different character types might spend their wealth differently than these percentages suggest; for example, arcane casters might spend very little on weapons but a great deal more on other magic items and disposable items.


Optimization wise, you are much better off not doing speed on weapons and buying boots of speed.


Claxon: I did calculate it on the first hit only (that's the added 10d6 near the end).
Also I stated that it was assuming Flat-footed opponent & full round action. Now I know these will most likely never occur.
However, even fixing the problem with my misunderstanding of Stalking, and ditching it, I'm still at the problem of 90d6 of sneak attack damage if all hit.
Now I realize the shortcomings of the build (trust me I know it can't hit the broad side of a barn). However "Hitting" something isn't my worry. The point was to MAX sneak damage and if I was maxing it correctly.

Nicholas Storm:: There are a lot of feats to swap around with this build and that feat progression could be a possibility.


So, fixing gear problems, change it to this then:

+4 Saps (or +1 and some type of ability) (64k)
Boots of Speed (12k)

Nixing the 10d6 from stalking, using the boots, and +1 wep:

+12/+12/+7 to hit (with just a +1 wep)

3*(1d6 +3 + 14d6 + 14) + 3*(1d6 +2 + 14d6 + 14)

90d6 + 99 and 1's and 2's count as 3's


From your description i am unsure you handly the Surprise Rund correctly.

1st. Sneaky Rogue gets into position right behind victim. No combat yet, because Rogue is unnoticed.

2nd. Rogue starts Combat with a Surprise Round against the flat-footed victim. Due to surprise round, only 1 Move Action, or 1 Standart Action. No Full-Attack possible yet.

3rd. If victim is skill conscious you need to win Initiative against him to give him a full-attack and still catch him flat-footed. Once he got to act, flatfooted happy-sap-time is over.

Anyway, if you hit in these situations a Sap Master Rogue will deal MASSIVE amounts of damage. IF you hit. For your character your to-hit-bonus is terrible.
My advice would be to get some simple +5 Saps and a bigger DEX-booster item, which boosts to-hit indirectly, as well as other nice stuff. Also there is an Ioun Stone for 4k iirc that gives a +1 competence bonus to hit. And i'd stack up on Potions of Heroism. Its a great buff, comes with +2 morale on to-hit and can be drunk silently. The cost is very affordable at level 13.

With the massive amounts of surprise subdual damage you can deal, it is much more important to make sure you actually hit your enemies, instead of trying to get 2 or 4 more D6 to damage.

P.S.
Like CLaxon said Deadly Sneak & Powerful Sneak are trap options! The actual increase in average damage deal is tiny (yet positive). Add the -2 to-hit on top of this, and it becomes a net loss of expected damage! You are more dangerous and deadly NOT using it!


Guru-Meditation: Alright, so boosting that to-hit:
Drop feat for extra rogue talent, grab Weapon Focus (Sap) +1 to hit,
drop Powerful & Deadly sneak +2 to hit,
+5 weapon +4 to hit (from the previous post),
grab +4 to Dex item for +2 to hit,
Get the Ion Stone for +1 to hit,
Haste +1,
and Potion of Heroism +2 to hit for a total:

New to hit: +25/+25/+20

(+9 base + 8 Dex + 5 Wep + 1 Wep Foc + 1 Ion Stone +1 haste + 2 Heroism - 2 TWF)

With a bit more damage: 90d6 + 123.

3*(1d6 + 7 + 14d6 +14) + 3*(1d6 + 6 + 14d6 +14)

Yeah?

Still an impressive minimum damage of 213
and ear-shattering, brain splatting max of: 663

Also Note: Yeah, I know getting an enemy Flat-Footed and getting that Full Attack in is a 1/100 chance. But I decided to focus on that 1/100 chance to see what could happen when it does.


Much better. When figuring out damage per round, at level 13 I assume an enemy AC of 28.

Pale green cracked ioun stone gives +1 competence bonus to hit (if no bard in the party). Haste also gives +1 to hit.


Also, is there a reason you aren't an unchained rogue? It's way better than core rogue.


I'm just used to Core Classes and dabble very little in Other Races. Personal Preference due to familiarity really. And my GM doesn't like unchained either.


Feat Changes:

Level 7: Weapon Focus (Sap)
=> Drop Powerful Sneak

10th Level Advanced Rogue Talent: Improved Evasion
==> Dropped Deadly Sneak

Level 11: Improved Initiative

Initiative bonus: +12

Noted Drawbacks: His flanking damage is only 1d6 + 7 + 7d6 + 7 Main Hand
and 1d6 + 6 + 7d6 + 7 off hand

Hitting with all attacks if flanking with someone:
+27/+27/+22 to hit
3*(8d6 + 14) + 3*(8d6 +13) = 48d6 + 81

Impressive, however he's a real glass cannon. This correct?


I have a clarification question on the Talent "Offensive Defense"

Benefit: When a rogue with this talent hits a creature with a melee attack that deals sneak attack damage, the rogue gains a +1 dodge bonus to AC for each sneak attack die rolled for one round.

Now how I'm reading it is like this:

Say I have +2 Padded Armor, +1 Amulet of Nat Armor, +1 Ring of Prot. giving this character a pitiful 23AC.

Surprise round: I strike with 14d6 sneak attack damage b/c of Sap Master.
Does that mean I get +14 dodge bonus to my AC boosting it (until next round) to a 37?
Then in subsequent rounds it'll just be 7d6 sneak attack to bring my AC up by +7 to a 30?
Also does this boost to AC increase my AC vs all targets or just the poor soul who got bludgeoned?


Fangteeth2 wrote:

Claxon: I did calculate it on the first hit only (that's the added 10d6 near the end).

Also I stated that it was assuming Flat-footed opponent & full round action. Now I know these will most likely never occur.
However, even fixing the problem with my misunderstanding of Stalking, and ditching it, I'm still at the problem of 90d6 of sneak attack damage if all hit.
Now I realize the shortcomings of the build (trust me I know it can't hit the broad side of a barn). However "Hitting" something isn't my worry. The point was to MAX sneak damage and if I was maxing it correctly.

Nicholas Storm:: There are a lot of feats to swap around with this build and that feat progression could be a possibility.

You were still wrong because you would only have 5 attacks, not 6.

As I mentioned, speed will only give you 1 extra attack total, not 1 per weapon.

So you're down even more damage.

You get 2 attacks for two weapon fighting, 4 with improved two weapon fighting. You don't qualify for Greater Two Weapon fighting yet. And speed or haste will add only 1 attack.

You will only have 5 attacks.


Offensive Defense has been through a couple of different iterations, and the exact wording will depend on which edition of the text you've got. Here's the FAQ. It boils down to:

1) Multiple bonuses from the same source don't stack even if they're dodge bonuses. So if you successfully sneak attack twice in one round, you only get to count the sneak attack dice from one hit for the AC bonus.

2) The AC bonus only applies against the creature that was hit, so if you're fighting multiple creatures you could easily sneak attack one but then get demolished by its buddies.

Ask your GM about whether Sap Master increases the AC bonus. At my table, I would say no. Offensive Defense counts the number of dice rolled in a round. Sap Master does not technically ADD sneak attack dice; it lets you roll your existing dice twice. However, it's a fine distinction, and could easily be argued the other way. So check with your GM. In the end, it's their opinion that matters, not random strangers on the Internet.


Food for thought.

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