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DROPBOX LINK TO DPF
Click on "download" and then "direct download".
I've been sitting on this for at leastseveral months, though most of it was written in the beginning. I have some ideas that I want to see applied to all divine classes in one form or another, and some of them are big changes that I feel still keep to the spirit of the class. These ideas exist in 3-4 classes I have not shared yet, but this cleric is kind of the base for them all.
-The class has a scaling pool of points that is used to fuel channel energy, spontaneous casting, and other miscellaneous abilities.
-Channel energy is no longer simply positive or negative. Creatures are healed or harmed depending on their alignment. Why shuldn't evil clerics be able to ingivorate their evil minions? Also, you can pump extra points into it to bolster the effects.
-Domain slots are gone, as are spontaneously casting cure and inflict spells. Instead, the cleric spends points to spontanously cast spells from her deity's domains' lists of domain spells. That was a bit of a mouthful.
-There is a list of selectable features, similar to rogue talents of magus arcana.
-The heavily armed aspect of the cleric is not automatic! You can get is back easily enough, but it must be selected.
Alright, tear into it...
Good formatting ;)
Alright, tear into it...
It reduces the amount of healing a cleric has at 1st level (since channeling is tied to favor points, and at first level, favor points equal 1 + cha mod rather than 3 + cha mod). Also, due to the limit on number of targets and radius, a cleric must spend more than 1 point to regain what was default at 1st level normally.
On the other hand, it does allow for some additional channels per day at higher levels, which is nice (or would be if the other class features didn't siphon off points). However, high level clerics have better ways to heal than with channel energy. Channel energy is the most useful at low levels, which is where you've knee-capped it.
This only gets worse when you consider that this pool is also required to cast prayers (at 2 points per prayer!) and spontaneous casting (at a number of points equal to the spell's level! Yikes!).
If this pool is going to power everything the cleric does, it needs to be a larger pool. 4 + Cha plus 2 per level thereafter, like a Bard or Barbarian would work out to around what a cleric gets now.
That said...
I love the interesting flavor this adds to the cleric. The aspects and prayers allow for much more customization of clerics (which I love), so I would certainly be up for trying this variant out - IF it had a larger point pool.
I also appreciate that you have plenty of options for lightly armored clerics - a favorite of mine. I've never understood why all of the best healer classes were stuck with Medium armor - I want to play a White Mage (wearing cloth armor or no armor) sometimes, and this variant cleric would let me do that.
So yeah - great stuff, just give the class more points to play with.
It buffs the cleric in ways I feel shouldn't be buffed (like skills) while also nerfing the class in ways I feel shouldn't be nerfed (the amount of healing). I like that you tried to add more options to customize your character, but I don't think the options will do enough to add variety to clerics. Most clerics will feel samey regardless of what prayers or aspects they choose.
Yet, I feel several of the aspects are out of line (like the one that lets you add Charisma, which is more powerful than the comparable oracle relevations).
Also, the prayer class feature's text is WAY too bloated. It's four paragraphs long when it feels like this class feature shouldn't be complicated. The worst part is that the text doesn't say what the class feature actually does. It's just nearly half a page of rules without telling you the benefits of the ability.
Good presentation. I'm not sure if it needs more favor points. Similar pools are 3 + half class level, so in the end your cleric gets more. And more evenly spread, so maybe this is better.
However, I do think the cost for spontaneous casting is too high.
Some other small details, but mostly taste.
I wouldn't do the Extra Favor as an Aspect. Firstly, it just seems like an undignified thing for an Aspect. But more to the point, that is what feats are for, and that is where you will find the equivalent for other classes.
Great ideas.
I really want priests to reflect their Gods, and be different from one another. Yours doesn't address one of my chief grievances, and that is the big fat Cleric spell list. I think the sameness of clerics begins with that list, and the class features don't help.
But, your version does address the class features, and I like where you're going with it.
Thank you for your input. Let me see if I can address some of it.
Skills
I think every class should have a minimum of four skill points, or at least those with no direct incentive to invest in Intelligence.
The Point Pool
Yes there are few points with which to fuel the various abilities, but I think that can be the price of additional versatility. In my experience playing clerics, I don't always exhaust the uses of channel energy and I never use all of my domain spells. They are two separate pools, and there can be more flexibility if they are drawn from one. Points are a little tight at low levels, but it rewards those who invest in Charisma and the cleric could choose to spend the points on channeling or spells. Less likely to end the day with left overs in two resource pools.
Channel Energy
At low level, my way means the cleric can channel energy fewer times but note that Charisma is added to the 1d6. I think that counts for something. At higher level, there are way to bolster the ability and accomplish more with a single action. For example, this cleric can heal and harm at the same time.
Domain Spells
Maybe the point cost is high, maybe its not, but the formula is simple. My reasoning is that instead of being stuck with the few spells chosen at the beginning of the day, this cleric has a broad pool of spells to choose from. Note that this cleric has access to the spells from all the deity's domains. The cleric could blow a bunch of points on two high level spells and hopefully get some mileage out of it, and not be left with unused spells at the end of the day.
Aspects
Yeah there are probably too many, but I wanted to get some brainstorming in. Cyrad, did you have a problem with all of the Cha aspects?
Prayers
I wanted to give some emphasis to domains, and this is what I came up with. Its not perfect. Should I lower the point cost? I don't mind the cost at low level because the is versatility in have access to several options, but at higher level the cost can get pretty high. I suppose that hardens back to making choices on where to spend the points.
If a cleric is 10th level and has 12 points, he could spontaneously cast one 5th level spell of her choice (5 points), use one +4 prayer (4 points), and use a powerful channel energy (3 points). Alternately, she could spontaneously cast two 5th level spells and channel energy twice. Or, she could usefour 3rd level spells. There are no left over domain spells. I understand that it can be tight if you decide to go big, but that is a choice. If the consensus is that the point pool is still small, I will increase it.
Spell List
I did not tackle the existing spell list or the existing domains, even though I don't love either one. I wanted this to be compatible with what already exists. Those two things are another battle.
I believe 9-level spellcasters should not have the same skill points as most martials. Especially a class that gets 3/4 BAB. They have plenty of ways to provide utility to a party without skills thanks to spells.
I did not notice the Cha bonus to AC was an armor bonus, but it's still problematic as it's largely useless on a class that gets light armor. Speaking of which, why did you remove medium armor? You made the class really MAD as a result.
Again, I feel strongly that you took a really tightly designed class and nerfed and buffed many things in unnecessary ways that now make the class kind of a mess. Now it has two talent pools that feel kind of the same and don't really enable you to build or play differently or add more flavor. Now channel energy is a lot more complicated and requires you (and the GM) to figure out the alignments of creatures in the radius. Now the class is more MAD than before because now they can't wear medium armor unless they take an option for it.
Do you have a problem with the oracle having extra skill points?
I don't believe that that removing medium armor makes it more MAD. Lots of characters wear light armor because there is no loss of speed/less ACP. Some clerics aren't melee oriented, and don't pursue higher AC. Medium armor is an aspect available at 1st level.
The Cha to AC aspect is mostly there because I like the flavor of the cleric being protected by faith. Its not a big bonus, but it works even when she doesn't have armor on and it can be a perk for those who invest in Charisma.
I don't really think of the original cleric as tightly designed, if I understand what you mean by that. Its a class like the fighter whose class features have little flavor. It is more of a blank slate for the player to RP as desired. And the features that have flavor (Channel Energy and Domains) feel like a minor feature of the class. They are second banana to spells. You once advised me that brevity and simplicity in class features - something I strove for in the past - was not neccessarily good. I have made more complex ones and now I have gone to far?
Some of the choices available to this cleric are not neccessary to the charcater being effective. But the point is that there are choices that can be made. Some older class have few to make and as time goes on classes generally have more choices available. A player could choose to stick to the simplest Channel Energy and only use a few favorite domain spells. Thats simple, but at least the player could look beyond that if needed or desired.
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Super cool.
I can echo the feedback about the Prayer mechanic. I like the idea, and how it is tied to Domains, just not exactly how it is executed here.
What if it was something chosen when the Cleric regained spells, lasting until the next time he prays? Prayers about a specific person, place, or thing could be vested here, granting special effects that the Cleric has specifically asked their Deity for.
Cheers!
Dot for an iteresting idea
V.interesting concept... and congrats on the work
I agree with your ideas in several ways, but I do have a few suggestions:
1) Your cleric is rightly more towards the pure caster than the current version.... I've always disliked how the cleric is interpretted in PF (and other RPGs). However, your version is very MAD due to its high level of CHA dependency. Favor points should be WIS/Caster level combo based.
2) Favor points are a soild idea and tie in with the concept of your deity boosting your spell effects (a touch of the Arcanist style?). I like the idea of 'Aspects' as a more thematic way of adding bonus feats.
3) IMO the class only should be 2 skill points/level. Make its class abilities WIS based and then that means ability score points have to be invested in INT to balance things.
4) There is the potential to hybridise the BAB/HD in a similar way to the Cardinal (horrendous archetype BTW). Give it D8 HD but 1/2 BAB...... and this would be thematically appropriate. This gives you some extra leeway now with abilities. A good idea considering cleric touch spells would be to give some kind of boost to touch spells via an Aspect??
5) I like the minimum armour/weapons..... although I would strip shield prof too.
6) One of the biggest (if not THE) probs with current cleric is the insistence that it channels. Channel even when optimised is barely even worth it. How about making it an option that can be taken? Maybe as an aspect? Channeling isnt something that a player should be forced to take. I do like how you've made it more viable though overall.
7) The domain thing is a bit hit and miss IMO.... I like how you've dropped the domain slot. But in keeping with the caster leaning, I would simply have the Cleric pick a domain at first, then give it a 2nd at 6th level and a 3rd at 12th level (or something like that). Domain spells can be prepped in normal slots. Domain abilities can be chosen each day when preparing spells from those available from their deity.
8) I like how your idea borrows on the Arcanist and Oracle to give it some flavour.
rainzex,
Yes, the execution for prayer is an experiment. If you think its bad now you then its good you didn't see ethe first two iterations! As usual you have some good ideas, but I don't neccessarily follow. Could you expand upon them a bit?
doc roc,
1) Distribution of ability scores over the class features is something that has changed as the class has changed. My intent here was not to make a divine wizard - it was to give the player a choice to focus or casting or martial. The standard cleric can do either, but there is little incentive to focus on one or the other except by spell and equipment choice. My feeling on the Cha/Wis matter is that a cleric who invests little or nothing into Cha can still use those abilities, but the cleric who does will be a little better. I don't believe that a class with two ability scores mentioned in class features should be required to invest heavily in both. My understanding is that most people who play the standard cleric do not invest much into Cha.
2 & 8) I think the arcanist and oracle are both good classes (I've played an oracle for 9 levels), but there was no intentionally infusion of them except in the sense that newer classes have more options than older classes.
3) Do you think that Cha should be removed from all of the class features? I don't like the idea of it, but I might I be the only one who feels that way. I think it would be good to discourage SAD classes. The wizard for example could stand to have a class feature that keyed off of something other than Int. He wouldn't have to invest heavily in the second ability score, but the option is there.
4) For simplicity's sake, I will keep the 3/4 BAB and d8 hit die.
5) I thought about removing the shield, but I would like the option for the cleric to help out in combat even if she does not excel. I suppose I could add shield proficiency to the "warpriest" aspect.
6) I think I will keep Channel Energy. I feel that it was introduced for a good reason. Without it, a "party healbot" might have to spend half of their spells slots on cure spells. I think that channel energy mitigates that and lets the cleric cast more interesting spells.
7) My intention with domain spells is that the cleric doesn't have to pick dumb domain spells that may or may not get used. No domain has a great selection. While this cleric's cost to spontaneously cast spells from a variety of domains is a bit high, she only pays for the spells she uses - there are no spells left over because you had one that you never would have picked.
Do you have a problem with the oracle having extra skill points?
I'm more lenient with the oracle considering that they have a spells list designed for a class that knows all spells, they have to pick a curse that cripples them, they don't get as many sustainable abilities as the cleric, and they're a spontaneous Cha-based spellcaster.
I don't believe that that removing medium armor makes it more MAD. Lots of characters wear light armor because there is no loss of speed/less ACP. Some clerics aren't melee oriented, and don't pursue higher AC. Medium armor is an aspect available at 1st level.
Giving a class only light armor proficiency means the class has to build more Dexterity. It's standard for players to upgrade to mithral medium armor even if they build higher Dexterity or value movement speed. By removing medium armor, you eliminate this option and force most players to build higher Dexterity unless they're willing to waste an option for it. it's a significant nerf that makes the class more MAD.
I still feel that classes like the cleric and fighter should have 4 skill points, but your explanation for the oracle makes sense. I'm on the fence about it. Don't know what I would remove to justify more skill points.
My first level cleric has a similar bag of tricks to the standard cleric: spells, domain spells, and channel energy. The only reason my first level cleric gets an aspect at first level is so that she can regain it is she likes. I wrote a lower power aspects specifically for this reason. I feel like my cleric could begin play with medium armor proficiency and not actually lose anything except the option to choose something else.
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Prayers:
As you have them currently written, the Cleric takes a combat action to pray for a little boon, and in this way it is very similar to a spell, but costing Favor.
As I could see it functioning differently, the Cleric "prepares" a few Prayers in the morning, costing Favor, perhaps most similar to the Medium's Seance or the Occultist's Focus, where they choose from buffs tied to their domains, and make specific Prayers about specific persons, places, or things.
The mechanical different is slight, but I feel it captures more the theme of praying to a deity for stuff. From there, you could expand your list so that each Domain has more than a single boon to choose from. For example:
Healing
1) One ally has healing spells cast on him maximized.
2) One healing kit may make standard action healing checks as a move action.
3) Against one named foe, magical healing they receive duplicates on one ally within 30 feet.
War
1) One ally gains listed bonus to initiative checks.
2) One weapon gains listed bonus to damage rolls on attacks of opportunity.
3) Against one named foe, allies gain the listed bonus to combat maneuver attack rolls.
OK, so multiple prayer options per domain. More work, but doable. Do you see the prayers lasting the whole day, or they have a duration? Maybe there is a longer prep time (at start of day or at other time) but the benefit activation is quicker?
So one spell per day, no favor points?
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No. Spells are prepared as normal, and in addition to that, Favor points may be used to enact Prayers. (Or saved for later to power Channels or Domain spells, as you have written).
Honestly, I don't exactly know where I'm going with this. Perhaps your original ideas are better. I just like your homebrew here and am throwing out ideas.
Cheers!
Interesting idea. I'm on board with 4 + IntMod skill points per level, but then again I also think that anyone who isn't an Int-based caster should get at least this much.
Additional Domains are gained too rapidly -- Clerics will quickly get all Domains offered by their deity.
I am trying to think (but need further study) of whether this chassis would work with my idea of moving Channel Energy and its variants (Alignment Channel(*), Elemental Channel(*), and the various Variant Channeling types) should be moved to some new Domains, thereby becoming the 1st level active Domain Power of these Domains (and spontaneous casting moves over to the 1st level passive Domain Power of these Domains), and then give Clerics 3 starting Domains so that they have room to get the Channeling-enabled Domains if they want them (or skip them if not), and giving the new Domains to deities as thematically appropriate, while still keeping the rate of acquisition of new Domains with level advancement down to a manageable speed.
(*)And fix the way these work -- the current Rules As Written for these just don't make sense.
Examples of new Domains (including fixed Alignment/Elemental Channeling) -- these are currently incomplete (missing some Domain Powers):
- Curing Domain (no longer strictly tied to non-Evil Clerics/Deities): 1st level active Domain Power is traditional Channel Positive Energy; 1st level passive Domain Power is spontaneous casting of Cure-series spells (still needs 8th level Domain Power)
- Infliction Domain (no longer strictly tied to non-Good Clerics/Deities): 1st level active Domain Power is traditional Channel Negative Energy; 1st level passive Domain Power is spontaneous casting of Inflict-series spells (still needs 8th level Domain Power)
- Celestial Domain (THIS is tied to Good Clerics/Deities): 1st level active Domain Power is Channel to Heal Good or Harm Evil (still needs 1st level passive Domain Power and 8th level Domain Power)
- Fiendish Domain (THIS is tied to Evil Clerics/Deities): 1st level active Domain Power is Channel to Heal Evil or Harm Good (still needs 1st level passive Domain Power and 8th level Domain Power)
- Resolute Domain (THIS is tied to Lawful Clerics/Deities): 1st level active Domain Power is Channel to Heal Law or Harm Chaos (still needs 1st level passive Domain Power and 8th level Domain Power)
- Entropic Domain (THIS is tied to Chaotic Clerics/Deities): 1st level active Domain Power is Channel to Heal Chaos or Harm Law (still needs 1st level passive Domain Power and 8th level Domain Power)
- Burning Domain (THIS is tied to Fire/Heat Clerics/Deities): 1st level active Domain Power is Channel to Heal Fire/Heat or Harm Cold/Water (still needs 1st level passive Domain Power and 8th level Domain Power)
- Aqueous Domain (THIS is tied to Cold/Water Clerics/Deities): 1st level active Domain Power is Channel to Heal Cold/Water or Harm Fire/Heat (still needs 1st level passive Domain Power and 8th level Domain Power)
- Mineral Domain (THIS is tied to Acid/Earth Clerics/Deities): 1st level active Domain Power is Channel to Heal Acid/Earth or Harm Air/Electricity (still needs 1st level passive Domain Power and 8th level Domain Power)
- Storm Domain (THIS is tied to Air/Electricity Clerics/Deities): 1st level active Domain Power is Channel to Heal Air/Electricity or Harm Acid/Earth (still needs 1st level passive Domain Power and 8th level Domain Power)
Alternatively (actually better but a LOT more work), rework Domains as mini-Mysteries.
Finally, Typos:
Change "Blood Sacrafice" to "Blood Sacrifice".
Near the end: Trickery: "The cleric or a gains" is missing something.
The concept is solid but I still maintain it has the same fundamental problem that the current cleric has..... its forced into channeling.
Things have changed vastly in recent years...... everyman and his dog can heal and even then the omnipotent wand of CLW can do a reasonable stand in!
There is just no real need for channeling as an obligatory option... it serves no purpose. If someone wants to have a channel build then fine, the option can be built in as an 'Aspect' or tied to a domain ability, but to force it upon the class, especially when its worth its highly dubious in 2017 PF just doesnt sit right.
Having everything key off WIS wouldnt make it too SAD, especially if you had it at 2+INT skill. Also if you kept it light armour only, a bit of DEX or CON investment would be necessary too.
The cleric is still stuck back in 1990 IMO.... it cant keep on clinging to the mace, armour and heal spells!
Since there are much better options for the 'Divine Warrior' type, any Cleric re-write really does have to make a 1/2 step (if not 3/4!!) towards a pure divine caster in order to breathe life back into it in 2017.
But overall, your idea is defintely a step in the right direction. Huge kudos for the hard work. :))
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Interesting class - nice work, I can see some great potential!
If I might, since many have said they are looking for more of a "pure divine caster", there is always THIS :)
rainzax,
No worries bud. I appreciate the brainstorming. I'm currently working on generating additonal prayer powers - two to three per domain. Even if I revert to only one I will end up with a much larger pool of powers to choose from. And I'm sure some of them will be better than whats there now.
UnArcaneElection,
Regarding the swift accumulation of domains, my original draft had them gaining all domains at 1st level. I though that taking away automatic domain spells, but replacing it with spending points to spontaneously cast from domains would be a good change. I want to encourage representation of the deity's entire portfolio - not just the couple of domains chosen at 1st level. I will slow it down, but I don't want the cleric to wait until high level to have all of the domains. I'd like to use existing domains for the purpose of compatibility, but if there were new domains I would like to see it done game wide - not just for one class.
doc roc,
Your point is noted. Please also note that my version of channeling can be used to heal allies and harm foes with no regard to them being living or not. It can easily be used offensively. Still, I am working on ideas for an alternate feature. Maybe a smite ability or a way to use the deity's influence to hinder or assist the attacks of other creatures.
Still a work in progress folks. Thank you for the input.
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Alternate Progression?
1 - Domain, Aspects, Channel 1d6, Prayer +1
2 - Aspect, Favor Pool
3 - Channel 2d6
4 - Aspect
5 - Prayer +2
6 - Aspect
7 - Channel 3d6
8 - Aspect
9 - Prayer +3
10 - Greater Aspects
11 - Channel 4d6
12 - Aspect
13 - Prayer +4
14 - Aspect
15 - Channel 5d6
16 - Aspect
17 - Prayer +5
18 - Aspect
19 - Channel 6d6
20 - Aspect
Domain
Starts with one Domain, which grants 1st-level domain power, bonus spells known, and access to Prayers. Additional domains may be taken by Aspects, up to Deity's full portfolio.
Aspects
More or less what you have in your draft.
Add to that the option to take additional domains, as well as the option to learn the advanced powers of domains already taken, or channelling feats.
Channel
As you have written.
Prayer
Here is the big idea.
Prayers have a base ability that doesn't cost Favor, and can be amplified with Favor points as well.
Favor Pool
Gained at 2nd level.
Pretty much as you have written. Spontaneous domain spells, channel buffs, stronger prayers.
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The options for Prayer have been expanded significantly. There are now three options per domain, but I have not yet rewritten the base class feature itself. I don't know if I will rewrite in such a way that you have access to all of them, or if this will simply end up as a brainstorming session and I remove a bunch of them.
rainzax,
If I go the route that additional domains have to be gained through aspects, then I would want to increase the number of aspects that are gained. Also, I wanted to start the prayers at +2, because using a favor point to gain a +1 to a skill just doesn't seem worthwhile.
This looks good. I like that you've broken things down to have a better range of options. Well done.
Good to see some free rewritten cleric stuff out there. ;)
For anyone who is still interested, I have been continuing to revise the PDF.