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Casting
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
Effect
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect one ball of ice and snow
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw Fortitude partial (see text); Spell Resistance no
Description
You conjure a ball of packed ice and snow that you can throw at a single target as a ranged touch attack. On a successful hit, the snowball deals 1d6 points of cold damage per caster level (maximum 5d6), and the target must make a successful Fortitude saving throw or be staggered for 1 round.
"You conjure a ball of packed ice and snow that you can throw at a single target as a ranged touch attack." ok - now the important question...
If my PC has a minus to her strength, does that mean she does less damage when she hits a target with the "ball of packed ice and snow"?
(if she were 1st level and have a strength of 7, would she do 1d6-2 damage?)
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If my PC has a minus to her strength, does that mean she does less damage when she hits a target with the "ball of packed ice and snow"?
no.
"If my PC has a minus to her strength, does that mean she does less damage when she hits a target with [insert other conjured object]?"
in most cases the answer here would be yes. Why is it "no" for this object? Why is this an exception to the rule of thrown items?
If my PC has a minus to her strength, does that mean she does less damage when she hits a target with the "ball of packed ice and snow"?
no.
"If my PC has a minus to her strength, does that mean she does less damage when she hits a target with [insert other conjured object]?"
in most cases the answer here would be yes. Why is it "no" for this object? Why is this an exception to the rule of thrown items?
Because it doesn't add your Strength modifier to damage at all. It does 1d6 damage/level. If your Strength modifier added or subtracted from that, it would specifically say so.
It isn't a thrown weapon. It is a spell that you just happen to throw.
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No. The damage is prescribed by the spell and you get neither bonuses nor penalties associated with strength. You only add strength to damage, as follows:
When you hit with a melee or thrown weapon, including a sling, add your Strength modifier to the damage result. A Strength penalty, but not a bonus, applies on damage rolls made with a bow that is not a composite bow."
So...strength applies to melee weapon, thrown weapon, bow (penalty only), and composite bow (bonus up to the max rating...or penalty), but not spell (or ranged machine weapon, like crossbow).
Here is the link:
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/coreRulebook/combat.html
Also, it does Cold damage. If it inflicted bludgeoning damage, then it might make sense that the harder you threw it, the harder it would bludgeon you. But throwing it harder isn't going to make it any colder.
Is the same true of the Magic Stones from the spell magic stone?
How about when I use a sling to throw them?
How about the coins used in the spell coin shot?
or the icicle created in the spell Icicle Dagger?
I ask this as a caster with a low strength... worried about bumping into this in PFS...
Icicle dagger says it creates a masterwork dagger which does normal dagger damage (with +1 cold damage added in). So like with a normal dagger, strength bonuses/penalties would apply.
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Icicle dagger says it creates a masterwork dagger which does normal dagger damage (with +1 cold damage added in). So like with a normal dagger, strength bonuses/penalties would apply.Is the same true of the Magic Stones from the spell magic stone?
How about when I use a sling to throw them?
How about the coins used in the spell coin shot?
or the icicle created in the spell Icicle Dagger?
I ask this as a caster with a low strength... worried about bumping into this in PFS...
Snowball creates a snowball - "Effect one ball of ice and snow"
Icicle dagger creates an icicle - "Effect one icicle"why does one count Strength and the other doesn't? because the dagger can be used in melee?
Magic Stone is kind of ambiguous.
In PFS there was a ruling:
The coin shot spell does not apply the caster's ability modifier (for most characters, Strength) to damage.
Snowball creates a snowball - "Effect one ball of ice and snow"
Icicle dagger creates an icicle - "Effect one icicle"why does one count Strength and the other doesn't?
The icicle is described as behaving like a masterwork dagger.
The ball of ice and snow is described as behaving completely differently from a normal chunk of ice; no physical damage, just cold damage, targets touch AC.
The Shadow Weapon allows you to "make attacks as if it were a real weapon". This implies you add strength to damage.
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Magic Stone is kind of ambiguous.
In a PFS game there was a ruling:
The coin shot spell does not apply the caster's ability modifier (for most characters, Strength) to damage.
can you give me a link on this? for reference later. (I use coin shot on a lot of weak characters - though I did create one recently where I pushed the strength up because of the strength penalty that judges in my area have been applying to it.
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Heroes of the Streets, page 30, about half way down this page
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Icicle dagger says it creates a masterwork dagger which does normal dagger damage (with +1 cold damage added in). So like with a normal dagger, strength bonuses/penalties would apply.Is the same true of the Magic Stones from the spell magic stone?
How about when I use a sling to throw them?
How about the coins used in the spell coin shot?
or the icicle created in the spell Icicle Dagger?
I ask this as a caster with a low strength... worried about bumping into this in PFS...
and snowball creates "one ball of ice and snow" ... it's not like ray of frost which has effect "ray". Why does an magically created icicle count strength, and a magically created snowball does not? because the icicle has a longer duration?
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Heroes of the Streets, page 30, about half way down this page
Thanks! I need to correct a PC now... not sure how I can do this... maybe just restart him... crud
and snowball creates "one ball of ice and snow" ... it's not like ray of frost which has effect "ray". Why does an magically created icicle count strength, and a magically created snowball does not? because the icicle has a longer duration?
Because the icicle dagger spell creates a masterwork dagger. That means the masterwork dagger rules (i.e., melee combat) apply. Snowball specifically says it is a ranged touch attack, not a "thrown improvised weapon attack" (which is what an ordinary, non-magical chunk of snow and ice would be). Therefore the thrown improvised weapon rules do not apply, the ranged touch spell rules apply. Which don't typically add the Strength modifier.
Unless one believes that all spell touch attacks should apply the Strength modifier (positive or negative) to damage, there's no reason to say that snowball's ranged touch attack should (just because the designers decided to be creative with the effect's description).
and snowball creates "one ball of ice and snow" ... it's not like ray of frost which has effect "ray". Why does an magically created icicle count strength, and a magically created snowball does not?
The usual answer to questions like that is "Because Magic".
It's not a ray, but like many ray spells it targets touch AC and inflicts energy damage, suggesting there's no physical attack component to be enhanced by strength. This is somewhat muddled by the flavor description - if it's conjuring an actual chunk of ice and snow, why does a +5 shield offer no protection against it? Because it's magic, presumably.|
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and snowball creates "one ball of ice and snow" ... it's not like ray of frost which has effect "ray". Why does an magically created icicle count strength, and a magically created snowball does not? because the icicle has a longer duration?Because the icicle dagger spell creates a masterwork dagger. That means the masterwork dagger rules (i.e., melee combat) apply. Snowball specifically says it is a ranged touch attack, not a "thrown improvised weapon attack". Therefore the thrown improvised weapon rules do not apply, the ranged touch spell rules apply. Which don't typically add the Strength modifier.
Unless you believe that all spell touch attacks should apply the Strength modifier (positive or negative) to damage, there's no reason to say that snowball's ranged touch attack should (just because the designers decided to be creative with the effect's description).
wait... if a spell creates an object. And you then throw that object... Most spells that have a ranged touch attack create a "Ray".
And (until Matthew Downie provided me with the link above) I was under the impression that Strength did apply to spells such as coin shot and magic stone (having had it come up as a "gotcha" moment with my low strength casters who had been using them to get an effective missile attack.)
wait... if a spell creates an object. And you then throw that object... Most spells that have a ranged touch attack create a "Ray".
And I was under the impression that Strength did apply to spells such as coin shot and magic stone (having had it come up as a "gotcha" moment with my low strength casters who had been using them to get an effective missile attack.)
Coin shot has been addressed above.
Magic stone explicitly says "The user of the stones makes a normal ranged attack" -- which means the normal ranged attack rolls about throwing stuff apply.
I agree that it is unusual that there is a spell that is a ranged touch attack that isn't specifically called a "ray", but I don't see any reason why the ranged touch attack would add Strength to elemental damage. Think of it as creative license, so that rather than another bland souped-up ray of frost but better spell, the effect is a snowball.
EDIT: Also, the fact that the description doesn't treat it like a weapon by giving it a range increment further bolsters the idea that the "snowball" is mechanically a spell, whose range is Close. Thrown weapons (which apply the Strength modifier) have range increments, not spell ranges.
It's not unusual for something to have a ranged touch attack that isn't a ray - Acid Arrow, for example. But it is unusual for you to have to throw them.
I imagine the snowball is solid when you throw it, but it bursts into an explosion of cold on contact, or something like that.
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wait... if a spell creates an object. And you then throw that object... Most spells that have a ranged touch attack create a "Ray".
And I was under the impression that Strength did apply to spells such as coin shot and magic stone (having had it come up as a "gotcha" moment with my low strength casters who had been using them to get an effective missile attack.)
Coin shot has been addressed above.
Magic stone explicitly says "The user of the stones makes a normal ranged attack" -- which means the normal ranged attack rolls about throwing stuff apply.
I agree that it is unusual that there is a spell that is a ranged touch attack that isn't specifically called a "ray", but I don't see any reason why the ranged touch attack would add Strength to elemental damage. Think of it as creative license, so that rather than another bland souped-up ray of frost but better spell, the effect is a snowball.
now I just need to convince my local PFS judges of this... The coin shot link above will help. Then my cat riding Gnome druid will have an effective missile weapon! yeah!
Hopefully so! Because every cat-riding Gnome druid should be able to throw snowballs effectively. It's, like, part of the Green Faith or something :)
EDIT: Oh, another thing to bring up, if the judges object. Consider produce flame. I've never heard anyone say that because it's a thrown weapon, not a ray, that it should apply the Strength penalty to the elemental damage it does. And that spell's been around forever. It just does the damage the description says it does, not that plus/minus Strength mod.
Snowball clearly says "cold damage", there is no damage from impact because it is not a weapon. Icicle Dagger creates a weapon, a dagger, and is treated like a weapon that adds some cold damage on top of the weapons usual effect. Same for Magic Stone, a normal attack, and combat feats, modifiers and all weapon based effects are in play. Think of snowball as more in line with other energy spells, scorching ray, fireball, etc,. It requires a touch attack, a "hit" on the target, like a ray, but the effects are all magical. If the target has ER/Cold high enough to avoid the cold damage, it would have no effect, since it is not a weapon, while an Icicle Dagger would still do the dagger's normal damage.