You Never See It Coming [New Class; PEACH]


Homebrew and House Rules


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Hey, this is my first PEACH (for the rare few unfamiliar with the term, it means "Please Examine And Critique Harshly"), so I might have to hold back my posts. If I seem too reactionary, let me know.

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The following is a class I developed with the help of the Persona 5 video game. The Shadow should technically be named the Trickster (as in the Arcane Trickster), but that's already taken by a certain Mythic Path, so I came up with a name that was lamer but still semi-thematic.

So with that, here's the class in all its almost-finished glory. (I haven't done the level 3-6 spells yet; I'll try to do that for the next rendition, but I want to know if I'm barking up any wrong trees first.)


Machaeus wrote:

Hey, this is my first PEACH (for the rare few unfamiliar with the term, it means "Please Examine And Critique Harshly"), so I might have to hold back my posts. If I seem too reactionary, let me know.

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The following is a class I developed with the help of the Persona 5 video game. The Shadow should technically be named the Trickster (as in the Arcane Trickster), but that's already taken by a certain Mythic Path, so I came up with a name that was lamer but still semi-thematic.

So with that, here's the class in all its almost-finished glory. (I haven't done the level 3-6 spells yet; I'll try to do that for the next rendition, but I want to know if I'm barking up any wrong trees first.)

I'm dotting for a good looksee later, when I have the time. Right now, my attention is riveted on the doc I saw when I clicked on the link -- a DropBox doc, open, no extra clicks needed. I'm new to DropBox: how did you do it?


1 person marked this as a favorite.

It means honestly, not harshly.


bitter lily wrote:
I'm dotting for a good looksee later, when I have the time. Right now, my attention is riveted on the doc I saw when I clicked on the link -- a DropBox doc, open, no extra clicks needed. I'm new to DropBox: how did you do it?

Right-click on the file once it has the green checkmark and look for "Copy Dropbox Link".

Ciaran Barnes wrote:
It means honestly, not harshly.

Oh. I'd seen "harshly" used before so...derp c:

Dark Archive

At first glance, I'm noticing a lot of adding without a lot of subtraction. Since your class is meant to be a wizardly rogue, I might remove the social skills from its list of class skills. I would also consider erring on the side of fewer skills by going to 4/level, especially because your class is going to have about as many as a rogue anyway with an intelligence focus.

I feel like Shadow Run is more complicated than it needs to be. Perhaps just have an increase to the class' base land speed? I'd also consider adding some way of gaining partial concealment from movement, maybe as a Shadow Trick.

Your sneak attack progression is awkward. Stick to having it progress every three levels.

As for spell list, is there a reason you don't want to just give the first six levels of the wizard's list?

I only just noticed the shadow points system. I would recommend removing it at this point and seeing what the power level of the class is like. You're giving sneak attack, extra movement, and rogue tricks to someone with 3/4 casting ability. See what that's like before adding even more resources.

If you DO keep the shadow points, I wouldn't key it to charisma. That's demanding three focus stats, which is far too much for most classes.


Mergy wrote:
At first glance, I'm noticing a lot of adding without a lot of subtraction. Since your class is meant to be a wizardly rogue, I might remove the social skills from its list of class skills. I would also consider erring on the side of fewer skills by going to 4/level, especially because your class is going to have about as many as a rogue anyway with an intelligence focus.

-Skills/level, -social skills. Got it.

Quote:
I feel like Shadow Run is more complicated than it needs to be. Perhaps just have an increase to the class' base land speed? I'd also consider adding some way of gaining partial concealment from movement, maybe as a Shadow Trick.

Hm, I hadn't thought it to be that complex, but you know how making game mechanics goes: you know how it's supposed to work, but then others don't understand it because you're not describing it well enough, or whatever. This is why I asked for help.

Quote:
Your sneak attack progression is awkward. Stick to having it progress every three levels.

Yeah, that's a better idea. I don't know why I didn't think of that one .-.

Quote:
As for spell list, is there a reason you don't want to just give the first six levels of the wizard's list?

I was thinking they'd be meant to be sneakier than a wizard, but I guess that would be the easier option.

Quote:

I only just noticed the shadow points system. I would recommend removing it at this point and seeing what the power level of the class is like. You're giving sneak attack, extra movement, and rogue tricks to someone with 3/4 casting ability. See what that's like before adding even more resources.

If you DO keep the shadow points, I wouldn't key it to charisma. That's demanding three focus stats, which is far too much for most classes.

Intelligence, then? I was thinking the Charisma method would be sort of a counterbalance to the other things. The extra movement was mostly to cover a couple dead levels (although you get a new spell level at one of them), but I could probably drop it. Besides, many of the Shadow Tricks require shadow points, and so does the Shadow Step ability.

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Thanks for the help! I'll want your updated thoughts on the shadow points thing, but I'll take the rest of it into account immediately.


Since you asked for a harsh critique...

I'm not sure what the Shadow brings to the table in terms of unique role or gameplay that isn't already covered by: Wizard with VMC rogue, Wizard with levels in Arcane Trickster, or the rogue Eldritch Scoundrel archetype. Most of the features you list for Shadow are poached from the Unchained Rogue, Monk, or Shadowdancer, and the spell list doesn't evoke anything in particular (unlike say the bard, who gets sonic effects, supportive magic, mind-affecting CC, and mild utility abilities).

I would say you need to define a clear niche here to differentiate it game-play wise and make it stand out as its own standalone class.

Persona 5 fanboying and more critique:
I got really REALLY excited when I saw your post saying this was related to Persona 5, but after reading it, other than a few throwaway references (Third Eye, Light Em Up) I'm not seeing how this emulates the Phantom Thieves in any way. I expected:

  • Spontaneous casting from a super limited list based on which persona you're using
  • Special abilities to make you super stealthy when hiding around corners or behind chairs
  • Something to make you awesome at ambushing foes
  • Making infiltration tools
  • Harnessing bonds with your allies and confidants
  • Stealing the hearts of weakened foes to make them no longer evil

    I definitely didn't expect:

  • Spellbooks and prepared spellcasting
  • Sneak attack
  • Trapfinding
  • RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

    The biggest problem I have with this class is that it lacks a strong evocative class feature to hold it all together. Shadow walk is a fairly boring ability and almost all other class features were stolen directly from the rogue. This class is also lacking in class features compared to similar classes. For example, the bard starts off with more abilities and better proficiencies.

    Most of the shadow tricks look okay, but you should not allow this class to take the Combat Trick and Feat shadow tricks multiple times. This essentially gives the class a better combat feat progression than the fighter. This should not happen.

    You also seem to be under the misconception that constructs and undead are immune to precision damage. This is not the case in Pathfinder. The only creatures immune to precision damage are elementals, oozes, and other creatures that lack a discernible anatomy.


    Cellion wrote:

    Since you asked for a harsh critique...

    I'm not sure what the Shadow brings to the table in terms of unique role or gameplay that isn't already covered by: Wizard with VMC rogue, Wizard with levels in Arcane Trickster, or the rogue Eldritch Scoundrel archetype. Most of the features you list for Shadow are poached from the Unchained Rogue, Monk, or Shadowdancer, and the spell list doesn't evoke anything in particular (unlike say the bard, who gets sonic effects, supportive magic, mind-affecting CC, and mild utility abilities).

    I would say you need to define a clear niche here to differentiate it game-play wise and make it stand out as its own standalone class.

    ** spoiler omitted **

    Alright. The main idea was similar to the Magus, which was: take the Eldritch Knight and make it a base class. Only in this case, I was using the Arcane Trickster (and I swiped a bit from Shadowdancer too, as you noticed).

    As to the fanboi-ing...yeah, I would be lying if I didn't say that the list you provided would be difficult to pull off. I just swiped a single leaf from their book, and to be honest, that leaf didn't even make the final cut.

    Sorry to disappoint.

    Cyrad wrote:

    The biggest problem I have with this class is that it lacks a strong evocative class feature to hold it all together. Shadow walk is a fairly boring ability and almost all other class features were stolen directly from the rogue. This class is also lacking in class features compared to similar classes. For example, the bard starts off with more abilities and better proficiencies.

    Most of the shadow tricks look okay, but you should not allow this class to take the Combat Trick and Feat shadow tricks multiple times. This essentially gives the class a better combat feat progression than the fighter. This should not happen.

    You also seem to be under the misconception that constructs and undead are immune to precision damage. This is not the case in Pathfinder. The only creatures immune to precision damage are elementals, oozes, and other creatures that lack a discernible anatomy.

    ...the feat thing is correct. I goof'd big time on that :I Good eye.

    (rereads the last paragraph) Wait, they aren't? Uh...pooshit. All this time I'd...bleh, learn something new every day. Or maybe I'd just forgotten, I'm not quite sure now.


    Instead of extra speed why don't you give it the conjuration classes Shift power so it can teleport across the battlefield.


    Um, no one seems to have blinked at the Dex to damage. Why?

    I didn't think that something like Bleeding Attack belonged here.

    Another minor note: I couldn't read the capstone ability, because of the hideous word wrap. I'd put the cool graphic on the far left or right, and wrap the text on one side only.

    However, for my main reaction: I liked the idea of an Arcane Trickster as a full (hybrid) class, but was disappointed by not seeing the Arcane Trickster's best features:

    <> Ranged Legerdemain
    <> Impromptu Sneak Attack
    <> Invisible Thief
    <> Surprise Spells

    <> You do have Tricky Spells (as Sneaky Mage), but not well-worded. It's not clear, for instance, what happens if I pick the ability at 8th or later. Wouldn't it be better to copy Tricky Spells, and specify a minimum of 6th level?

    Right now, I'd consider taking this class as my platform for reaching Arcane Trickster, but not as the alternative I'd hoped for.


    Dex to damage has sort of become a feature to expect from rogue classes of late. It's power creep, but it keeps us from having everyone running around with dervish dance and 3 ranks of perform (dance) so it's all good.

    RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

    bitter lily wrote:
    Um, no one seems to have blinked at the Dex to damage. Why?

    The unchained rogue's finesse is a clutch designed to make up for the fact that the unchained rogue is still a non-spellcasting martial class with a 3/4 BAB. Though, I don't think there's anything wrong with Dex-to-damage as long as it's well designed.

    This class is lacking, so I didn't really care they got the ability.

    Liberty's Edge

    There actually IS such a class ;)

    The Trickster


    Create Mr. Pitt wrote:
    Instead of extra speed why don't you give it the conjuration classes Shift power so it can teleport across the battlefield.

    Dimensional Steps, huh? Duh. Thanks for the idea, I might use that in place of the current Shadow Step.

    bitter lily wrote:

    Um, no one seems to have blinked at the Dex to damage. Why?

    I didn't think that something like Bleeding Attack belonged here.

    ...probably not. I'll remove it.

    Quote:
    Another minor note: I couldn't read the capstone ability, because of the hideous word wrap. I'd put the cool graphic on the far left or right, and wrap the text on one side only.

    Wait, did it - oh, sorry about that!

    Quote:

    However, for my main reaction: I liked the idea of an Arcane Trickster as a full (hybrid) class, but was disappointed by not seeing the Arcane Trickster's best features:

    <> Ranged Legerdemain
    <> Impromptu Sneak Attack
    <> Invisible Thief
    <> Surprise Spells

    <> You do have Tricky Spells (as Sneaky Mage), but not well-worded. It's not clear, for instance, what happens if I pick the ability at 8th or later. Wouldn't it be better to copy Tricky Spells, and specify a minimum of 6th level?

    I'll take a closer look at the Arcane Trickster, but I think a couple of those are available as Shadow Tricks.

    Marc Radle wrote:

    There actually IS such a class ;)

    The Trickster

    ...well pooshit. Nice signal boost anyway :P

    I think I might have that PDF too...


    I'm not sure why wizard is listed as a parent class. The only thing I see from the wizard is a spell book.

    I think that having a class feature called armor training is confusing because there is already a fighter feature with that name. You can incorporate this into the armor proficiencies. See the bard class to see how that is done.

    I agree that this should be a 4 + Int skill class.

    I think i get how shadow run works, but why not just call this fast movement? A plain increase to speed in exactly what the barbarian and monk get, so why get fancy? I don't think the acrobatics bonus is neccessary. You're squeezing in an awful lot, and increases in speed already grant a bonus to jumping. The higher level functions of this (running un walls, etc.) should have their own class features. What does this running have to do with shadows anyways?

    Finesse training has some weird wording. At "4th level or higher"? Did you mean to say "At 4th level"? 4th or higher implies that the character can wait and choose later.

    You are cramming an awful lot into this class. It should be trimmed down. This could be a full class without spellcasting, but the character gets a load of features and wizard spells on top of it.

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