Hybridization Funnel in Society Play

[shadowkras]

I have two questions about the Hybridization Funnel

1) Does it count as one or two attacks?

2) How does it interact with abilities like a Far Strike Monk's Ki Missile.

[claudekennilol]

Flagged for the rules forum.

[GinoA]

1: One attack, two damages types. One hit. So any defenses are applied once to the total.
2: Thrown weapons and thrown splash weapons are different things with different rules. It doesn't apply at all.

Edit: Some clarification on #1.

[shadowkras]

Hey @Gino, thanks for answering.

Alchemical thrown weapons are considered ranged weapons by the rules, while thrown weapons are ranged weapons of the type "thrown" instead of "projectile". There is even an exception on the thrown weapon's rules about slash weapons (you do not add your str bonus).

Quote:

Thrown Weapons: The wielder applies his Strength modifier to damage dealt by thrown weapons (except for splash weapons).

[shadowkras]

Thanks to the mod who moved it. I didn't know if this question was here or on PFS forums since I am looking for society members feedback, so I decided to post it there.

[Firebug]

GinoA wrote:

1: One attack, two damages types. One hit. So any defenses are applied once to the total.

2: Thrown weapons and thrown splash weapons are different things with different rules. It doesn't apply at all.

Edit: Some clarification on #1.

Pretty much explicitly wrong on #1.

From the item in question "when thrown as a splash weapon, the mixture has the effects of both component substances and creatures are affected as if hit by both. "
"As if hit by both", two separate damage rolls, resistance and throw anything applies to each half.
If it was not the case, what would you do if the monster had fire resist 10 and you use acid/fire? If you had 6 on one die and a 4 on the other? Does it take 0 damage?

[The Toaster]

This is something that requires an answer from the GM... so in PFS it is very much subject to YMMV.

I could give you my answer, but - heck - it only applies when I'm the judge at your PFS table.

some of the questions the judge would need to address....

1) do you add the +1 to damage from Point Blank Shot more than once? what damage time does it do if one item is acid and the other fire?

2) do you add in the INT bonus more than once?

3) When a CRIT is rolled, what damage is doubled?

4) Can it be deflected with Deflect Arrows? Both parts, or only one? (does it count as two items or only one for things that effect one attack?)

and I am sure there are many others...

[Varrian Lunari]

To me (I agree with The Toaster about table variance), I would treat this as such:

1.) Counts as a single Attack

Throw the Alchemist's Acid Fire
Use your ranged modifier
If it hits it deals 1d6 Fire & 1d6 Acid
If it crits it deals 2d6 Fire & 2d6 Acid

2.) No

As per The Toasters comments:

1.) You add point Blank Shot once because you make one attack roll. It does both Acid and Fire damage if applicable.

2.) Not sure where INT comes into play.

3.) See above example

4.) Yes because it is one flask. It specifically states that both liquids "Success means the two materials are safely mixed into one vial that is the same volume as a normal splash weapon vial"

[The Toaster]

sorry - The Toaster is an Alchemist, so he adds his INT to splash weapon damage... and so there is the question of does he add it once or twice? "...when thrown as a splash weapon, the mixture has the effects of both component substances and creatures are affected as if hit by both. "

[Nefreet]

It's one item. You only add Int once.

Ability Modifiers don't stack unless explicitly stated.

[Varrian Lunari]

Like Nefreet said. It may be affected as if it hit by both but it is still one vial and the attack is rolled once for one item.

[The Toaster]

Nefreet wrote:

It's one item. You only add Int once.

Ability Modifiers don't stack unless explicitly stated.

and so, when you hit it with the one item and add in the INT from the Alchemist... what type of damage does the additional damage modifiers do?

Say the mixture was Fire and Acid damage (my usual mix), but the creature has Acid immunity and Fire Resistance 5. The alchemist rolls damage dice amounting to:

1d6 Fire 3,
1d6 Acid 6,
and has an INT of 16 so does +3 extra points.

if the +3 is added to the fire damage he does 6 fire, 6 acid and 1 point goes thru.

If the +3 is added to the acid damage he does 3 fire, 9 acid and 0 goes thru.

if the +3 is split evenly between each of the two damage types he does 4 fire, and 7 acid and 1 point is lost (1.5 rounds down on each damage type) and he does 0 damage.

if the +3 is split proportionally between the two damage types he does 4 fire and 8 acid and he again does 0 damage.

Adding in a +1 for Point Blank shot MIGHT round up the 1.5s to 2.0s (depends on the judge, it could be treated as 0.5 of each type which rounds down again to zero so... 1 point non-lethal? of each type?).

Or perhaps the Alchemist can assign his bonus damage as he wishes? Or is it determined by the judge?

I have encountered all the options listed above with PFS judges at least once - including having the damage type being determined by judges whim which changed from attack to attack.

[Friendly "Fire"]

an interesting "creation" with this is to "mix" an Acid flash and an Alkali flask, so the result does:

1d6 acid (Acid flask) damage plus 1d6 acid (Alkali flask) damage.

This does run into problems with something with acid resistance, as "affected as if it hit by both" means that both dice have their damage reduced by the resistance amount. My wife's' Oread alchemist looked at this early on, as it meant that being in the splash area of her own weapons wouldn't normally get thru her Acid Resistance 5. (1d6-5 acid, and 1d6-5 alkali). (Her INT bonus is only +2, so... depending on how it get's added in, it often is reduced away...)

[Gwaihir Scout]

Only things you're damaging with that combo are slugs and akatas.

(acid + alkali = water and a salt)

(Yes, yes, I know. My chemistry degree demands it.)

[Friendly "Fire"]

Gwaihir Scout wrote:

Only things you're damaging with that combo are slugs and akatas.

(acid + alkali = water and a salt)

(Yes, yes, I know. My chemistry degree demands it.)

which is one of the reasons I love the combo in PFS! LOL!

that, and it's one of the cheapest to make (10gp + 15gp)...

[Pink Dragon]

Hybridization Funnel:
"Success means the two materials are safely mixed into one vial that is the same volume as a normal splash weapon vial; when thrown as a splash weapon, the mixture has the effects of both component substances and creatures are affected as if hit by both."

It seems that there are a number of possible interpretations.

1. Treat the two materials as completely separate attacks.
This option would mean rolling two attack rolls, adding any modifiers separately for each attack and resolving the damage separately for each attack. Essentially, this would allow two attacks with a single standard action.

2. Treat the attack as a single splash weapon combining the effects of both materials.
This option would mean rolling one attack roll, adding any modifiers only once, rolling the damage dice together and treating the energy type as "one AND the other" (e.g. acid AND fire). The last bit of this means that if the damage rolled on the 2d6 is 7 and the target has 10 acid resistance and no fire resistance, the target still takes all 7 points of damage.

3. Treat the attack roll as a single splash weapon, but treat the damage as separate splash weapons - Version 1.
This option would mean rolling one attack and adding any attack modifiers only once. However, damage rolls are made separately for each material type, damage modifiers are added to both damage rolls and the damage rolls are resolved separately.

4. Treat the attack roll as a single splash weapon, treat the damage as separate splash weapons - Version 2.
This option would mean rolling one attack and adding any attack modifiers only once. Then, damage rolls are made separately for each material type but damage modifiers are added to only one of the damage rolls or the damage modifiers are split between the two damage rolls. The damage rolls are then resolved separately.

There may be more variations.

Of the above, I dislike interpretation 4 the most because it raises far too many ancillary questions about how to apply damage modifiers.

I dislike interpretation 1 the second most because it seems counter to the one standard action per turn notion and is counter to the "one vial ... thrown as a splash weapon" text in the item description.

I am on the fence between interpretations 2 and 3, but lean towards 2 because it is the simplest, and under interpretation 2 the mixture still has the effects of both component substances (i.e. energy type X AND energy type Y) and creatures are affected as if hit by both (i.e. 1d6 + 1d6 = 2d6 damage).

Edit: On re-reading the above, the damage modifier aspects of interpretations 3 and 4 are all variations on the same difficulty in deciding how to resolve damage under the notion of 1 attack but separate damage roll paradigm. Makes me lean harder to interpretation 2.

[Nefreet]

The Toaster wrote:

I have encountered all the options listed above with PFS judges at least once - including having the damage type being determined by judges whim which changed from attack to attack.

That's not a fault of PFS. That's simply variations in interpretation. You're seeing the same thing in this thread. PFS considers this to be an acceptable level of table variation. Whether the extra 1 point of damage gets past resistance shouldn't be hindering your entire character build and making your PC unplayable.

It's more one of those things where if GM A rules that it's split evenly, and GM B rules that it's your choice, you go "Cool, thanks!" and move on.

[The Toaster]

Nefreet wrote:

The Toaster wrote:

I have encountered all the options listed above with PFS judges at least once - including having the damage type being determined by judges whim which changed from attack to attack.

That's not a fault of PFS. That's simply variations in interpretation. You're seeing the same thing in this thread. PFS considers this to be an acceptable level of table variation. Whether the extra 1 point of damage gets past resistance shouldn't be hindering your entire character build and making your PC unplayable.

It's more one of those things where if GM A rules that it's split evenly, and GM B rules that it's your choice, you go "Cool, thanks!" and move on.

I'm sorry to have left you with the impression that this issue was "...hindering your entire character build and making your PC unplayable...". It doesn't. It does make this ITEM almost unplayable, as the effects it generates are very random and prone to causing upset in judges. It is so poorly written as to be effectively unusable in PFS. Kind of like having a sword that does either 1d8, 1d6 or 3d4 Hit Points of Piercing or Slashing damage, depending on the judges whim of the moment. It is in fact much easier to just not bother with the item.

It takes a lot of investment to use requiring
1) a DC25 Craft Alchemy skill check per vial produced,
2) cost of the substances, (which is spent even if the item is not used, see #4 below)
3) 10 minutes per check (one check per item)
4) and has a shelf life of one day

Resulting in effectively requiring an Alchemist of about 5th level to spend an hour to get 6 items that do 1 dice less damage than his bombs, and have half the range... and that don't scale up as he increases in level. The items produced ARE better than a normal splash weapon, doing 1d6 more damage (as long as there is no Energy Resistances involved and as long as additional damage is not split between energy types done, rounding down).

(edit: a note on the level of the Alchemist using it. It requires an Alchemist to make a DC25 (DC 30 if using Holy Water) to mix the liquids. This means they would need to have a +15 if Take 10 is allowed... +5 for INT of 20, +5 for ranks, +3 class skill, +2 for alchemist lab and a 5th level Alchemist with a 20 INT could do it... if he had an Alchemy Lab on hand.)

[Nefreet]

Level 1, really.

+1 Rank
+2 Tool
+3 Class Skill
+4 Int of 18
+5 Crafter's Fortune

Another +2 if you're Half-elf. Another +1 if you're an Alchemist.

Taking 10 is allowed, unless you're in the middle of combat.

You should also ask your GM before the Adventure begins. If you don't like the answer you receive, don't use the item for that Adventure.

[The Toaster]

Nefreet wrote:

Level 1, really.

+1 Rank
+2 Tool
+3 Class Skill
+4 Int of 18
+5 Crafter's Fortune

Another +2 if you're Half-elf. Another +1 if you're an Alchemist.

Taking 10 is allowed, unless you're in the middle of combat.

You should also ask your GM before the Adventure begins. If you don't like the answer you receive, don't use the item for that Adventure.

Crafters Fortune would require one of the two extracts a day that the 1st level Alchemist has - so at most 2 of these items could be created per day.

The +1 you list above as "+1 if you're an Alchemist" - is this the bonus from "When using Craft (alchemy) to create an alchemical item, an alchemist gains a competence bonus equal to his class level on the Craft (alchemy) check."? is so, it would not apply as the Alchemist is not creating an alchemical item, he is mixing two he has already created (or paid full price for). This could be made up for by increasing the INT to 20 (which would also give another Extract a day for Crafters Fortune upping the total items available to three). Or it could be made up for with a Trait... perhaps? Not sure if there is one available to a half elf though...

The tool bonus would only be available for a Lab right? so 200 gp and 40 lbs makes it hard for a 1st level to come up with... but possible (not likely on adventure though...).

so... with an investment of 200 GP and the Race (Half Elf) of the alchemist, as well as investing in a 20 INT, it becomes possible at 1st level to create 2 (3?) of these items a day. But then we have entered the realm of "...hindering your entire character build and making your PC unplayable..." if the judge rules against the items use in some way.

Still, as the character advances in level, it becomes more possible to create these items. By 4th level one might be able to create 4 or 5 a day - with the investment of a majority of the alchemists daily extracts and a good chunk of gold...

edit: and this item is a magic item and costs 200gp, so ... a 1st level guy would have to have 5 PP to even buy it unless it is available on a CR... so effectively only available after no less than 3 scenarios (perhaps more)... so not available until a PC is 2nd level anyway.

[Nefreet]

If you're set on not using it, then don't use it. I've seen plenty of characters use them, myself included, and have never encountered this level of drama.

I just checked my Investigator and he indeed did purchase one as soon as he hit 6 Prestige. He theoretically could have purchased it at 1st level using 2pp, though that's not really a worthwhile expenditure.

He's now 5th level, and has used it to great effect (combining Slime Grenades and Artokus's Fire for 4d6).

I would personally allow the Alchemist's level bonus to apply to the hybridized flask. You are indeed creating an alchemical item. But I suppose that would add to the level of table variation that you're already encountering.