The left-behind body

[Viondar]

Concerning possession, magic jar, and (although that one is kinda clear) clone.

If you leave your body behind to possess something else, is your body actually a dead body?

How does it respond to the death watch spell?

And if it is a dead body, can it be targeted by spells that target objects, like shrink item? or an invisibility spell made permanent?

If, on the other hand, your dead body is still a creature, does that mean it can be targeted by spells that target creatures? Or, for that matter, humanoids?

[Nixitur]

Magic Jar says it's "leaving your body lifeless". Both Magic Jar and Possession say that, "as near as anyone can tell", it's a dead body. To be consistent, this would have to include magical means, so Deathwatch would see it as dead. So, everything points to it effectively being an object. If a creature-affecting spell worked on it or an object-affecting one didn't, the caster could tell that it's not a dead body, clearly violating the spell description.
So, I would definitely treat it as an object for all intents and purposes. So, yes, you could shrink it and make it permanently invisible. But if it became not-an-object (by the caster shifting back to it), all effects on it that only affect objects should cease functioning or even be dispelled.

The last part isn't stated in the rules, though. RAW, checking whether something is a valid target is only done at the moment of casting, not at any other point during the duration. That's some pretty heavy rules lawyering, but as far as I know, technically correct.
As an aside, this applies not only to "effectively dead" bodies with Magic Jar and Possession, but also actually dead ones that are later resurrected with Raise Dead because the body doesn't change.

[Viondar]

Hahaha, so that's actually a way to get some permanent stuff on me :D

Well, as you say, that's not what it's for.

It's enough for me to know that I can put myself in my pocket while traveling, or apport object myself in shrunk form :)

Thanks!

[JDLPF]

It's a similar grey area to the Flesh to Stone spell.

"The subject, along with all its carried gear, turns into a mindless, inert statue. If the statue resulting from this spell is broken or damaged, the subject (if ever returned to its original state) has similar damage or deformities. The creature is not dead, but it does not seem to be alive either when viewed with spells such as deathwatch."

Usually when one of my players gets creative with these type of loopholes, I remind them that anything valid for their characters is valid for the enemy as well.

[Nixitur]

JDLPF wrote:

It's a similar grey area to the Flesh to Stone spell.

"The subject, along with all its carried gear, turns into a mindless, inert statue. If the statue resulting from this spell is broken or damaged, the subject (if ever returned to its original state) has similar damage or deformities. The creature is not dead, but it does not seem to be alive either when viewed with spells such as deathwatch."

Usually when one of my players gets creative with these type of loopholes, I remind them that anything valid for their characters is valid for the enemy as well.

True, but this loophole is even more brutal. Flesh to Stone specifically mentions that it doesn't seem alive when viewed with specific spells. It does not say that it seems dead when examined through any other magical means.

Magic Jar, on the other hand, pretty unambiguously states that there is nothing anyone else can do that makes it not seem like a dead body. "As near as anyone can tell" is way more all-encompassing than I suspect the writer intended and should logically entail that you could use object-only spells on it.

As an aside, while Magic Jar uses this language, Possession actually does not, it merely says "your body appears to be dead". I would say that that probably only extends to mundane means of telling dead from alive as magic is concerned with more than just appearance. Whether it should include magical ways of detection or even trying object-only spells on it is probably a GM call, but neither supported nor forbidden by the rules. Regardless, that's a mistake in my previous post.

[Murdock Mudeater]

Viondar wrote:

And if it is a dead body, can it be targeted by spells that target objects, like shrink item? or an invisibility spell made permanent?

If, on the other hand, your dead body is still a creature, does that mean it can be targeted by spells that target creatures? Or, for that matter, humanoids?

Corpses, in rules, are both objects and creatures. Definitely legal grey area. Up to the GM, mainly. If you are the GM, I'd suggest caution, and resolving things on a case by case basis, rather than a hard rule. There's just lots of bizzare rules interactions when something common is both an item and a creature in the pathfinder game mechanics.

As for magic jar, you body isn't dead, just mostly dead. Your body retains it's HP, and can become a true corpse if it is "destroyed" while you are off in another body. Although your body would detect as dead and appear as a corpse, your body wouldn't be dead for the purposes of spells that target corpses (like animate dead), plus detect magic should reveal 5th level necromancy in use.

Mechically, I suggest treating the discarded body of Magic Jar as an unconscious version of the character. Treat it as a creature, not an object. That is, until it is "destroyed" or slain, then treat it as the corpse it is.

[Ascalaphus]

Nixitur wrote:

Magic Jar, on the other hand, pretty unambiguously states that there is nothing anyone else can do that makes it not seem like a dead body. "As near as anyone can tell" is way more all-encompassing than I suspect the writer intended and should logically entail that you could use object-only spells on it.

I think that might be over-interpreting it. I think it just means that normal inspection for a pulse or breathing don't show any. A simple Heal check to distinguish dead from unconscious isn't going to suffice. But making it impossible even with appropriate magic (Death Watch) would deserve an explicit mention.

[Nixitur]

Ascalaphus wrote:

I think that might be over-interpreting it. I think it just means that normal inspection for a pulse or breathing don't show any. A simple Heal check to distinguish dead from unconscious isn't going to suffice. But making it impossible even with appropriate magic (Death Watch) would deserve an explicit mention.

I agree with that being the most reasonable interpretation, but I don't know how it's supported by the rules. For example, if an effect states that a character "cannot heal" or "cannot be healed" (like Gift of Blood from a Martyred Bloodline Sorcerer), I'm certain that that doesn't just apply to mundane healing, but also makes magical healing impossible.

By extension, if an effect (Magic Jar in this case) states, with no further qualifiers, that others cannot tell that a body is not actually dead, then it should logically also apply to magical means.
Don't get me wrong, I don't think it should, but I think it's the most consistent interpretation.

[Pizza Lord]

Murdock Mudeater wrote:

Mechically, I suggest treating the discarded body of Magic Jar as an unconscious version of the character. Treat it as a creature, not an object. That is, until it is "destroyed" or slain, then treat it as the corpse it is.

This is usually the right line of interpretation. For most GMs it's just finding the right balance of how to apply it. I tend to treat them as a dead body a bit more than an unconscious person. Obviously there are all sorts of corner cases, but since it [magic jar] pretty much states they body is almost indistinguishable from being dead, the assumption is practically no breathing, no pulse/heartbeat, etc.

So if it's a situation that involves breathing or physical circulation, I tend to view the body as immune. This means trying to drown it, putting it in a box, carrying it through poison gas, etc. It also applies to venom or other poison. The body would be harmed by a scorpion sting but any poison would not affect it. However, it also wouldn't just clear (unless that toxin specifically has a breakdown time beyond a victim making a number of saves to clear it,) so it would become 'active' when the soul returned and life functions resumed.

However, I don't count it as just an object. Certainly, mental effects like a charm would just fail cast on the body (if they were previously in place, I have them remain with the psyche when it moves), but I have no problem with someone casting mage armor or cure light wounds on the inert form even though those don't normally effect objects. This is a very rare situation to normal rules and interactions, so having a one-size-fits-all answer isn't reasonable, all a GM can try and do is make a fair ruling (even if it differs from how others do it) and be consistent.

[Ascalaphus]

I think Pizza Lord's approach makes sense.

For my own sanity I'm not going to treat every "suspended animation" effect very differently. In almost all cases I'd say the following holds:

• Looks neither alive nor dead nor undead to Deathwatch, which is a strong clue about what's going on.
  
• Very hard to impossible to distinguish from being dead with Heal, unless specialized tools are employed.
  
• Can be healed if injured.
  
• If the soul is not home (magic jar) then not subject to mind-affecting effects, but possession style effects can hijack the empty body.
  
• Poison can be introduced via Injection/Injury and Contact but doesn't take effect until the body wakes again. By which time a dangerously large dose can be present. Ingested and Inhaled poisons don't get into the body since it's not swallowing or breathing.
  
• Inhaled gas effects and drowning/suffocation don't happen as there's no breathing going on. Going into suspended animation can be a strategy for surviving air-tight imprisonment.
  
• Some spells can't be used, particularly spells that require living targets. Spells that also work on objects and lifeless creatures should usually work.
  

[Scott Wilhelm]

While you are possessing someone else, can a Cleric Heal the body you left behind?

While you are possessing someone else, can the Cleric cast Animate Dead on your body and take it with him? What happens when you return to your body?

[Ascalaphus]

Scott Wilhelm wrote:

While you are possessing someone else, can a Cleric Heal the body you left behind?

Sure.

Quote:

While you are possessing someone else, can the Cleric cast Animate Dead on your body and take it with him? What happens when you return to your body?

Nope. It's not actually dead, it just looks like it's dead.

[Duiker]

It's easy to tell whether it's a corpse or a magic jarred body. The latter should have an attached note saying "I aten't ded"

[Viondar]

Ok, do we've established a suspended animation state that the body is in. That means it's still a creature, and not dead. This would make shrink item impossible, but reduce person is a good start :)

By the by...
If dead bodies are considered creatures as well as objects... That should mean you can possess dead bodies.
Is that correct? Seems kinda strong! My group has always considered dead bodies to be objects only... Were we wrong?

[Viondar]

Duiker wrote:

It's easy to tell whether it's a corpse or a magic jarred body. The latter should have an attached note saying "I aten't ded"

Terry Pratchett rules :D

Edit: to stay on topic... He rules posthumously... Sort of like in suspended animation... Possessing his books and our minds, our imagination! What a wizard... (or wizzard?)

[Pizza Lord]

Viondar wrote:

My group has always considered dead bodies to be objects only... Were we wrong?

It's not necessarily wrong. Just like what we're discussing here... on some forum way back in the day someone posed a question regarding the interaction of a spell or effect with a body. Something along the lines of 'What happens to spells on a character if they die?' etc. Whether it was that specific one or not, a developer response was to consider it an object.

Many people decided to interpret that as meaning a corpse or a dead body counts as an object in all cases, when the actual intent was for that particular answer. A lot of people have a hard time with things that aren't A or B, Right or Wrong, Black or White. The truth is, corpses are a gray area and with all the possible spells, targeting rules, effects, etc. it's not reasonable (nor should it be asked) to try and cover everything.

In the case of inhabiting a 'vacated' body rather than a true corpse... that depends on the ability being used. If it's a power that animates a 'body' then it may work. If it's like magic jar technically you have to evict a current soul. Personally I don't see why a person using magic jar couldn't inhabit a vacated body (other than the extreme targeting restrictions, in that you can't actually target anything other than by noting the lifeforce, which isn't there in a vacated body). A possession spell may get around this or a ghost's malevolence since they can see and target their choices. That's your call though.