I think what you're missing is a rule saying you can attack yourself. What AC do you use? Are you flat-footed? Touch AC? It's incorporeal-does that have an effect? Resolve this series of issues and you might get an answer, but good luck with it.
Reminder: Pathfinder is a permissive rules system. It isn't the goal of the system to tell you everything you can and cannot do; instead, it tells you what you CAN do. The rest...generally, either 'no' or 'Rule 0' aka ask the GM.
So a Wraith is Undead, its melee attacks deal negative energy damage. It doesn't specify that it only works on living foes (Lich for example can deal negative damage only to living creatures).
So, theoretically, the Wraith can hit himself and heal that way, since it doesn't state that he can't do it. And his ability doesn't say that it doesn't work on undead foes.Am I missing something or does it work like that?
Lichs can heal themselves (and other undead) with their attack. It specifically says so.
I don't see anything that would prevent a wraith from doing the same thing.
The lich has a specific rule in its entry for healing itself (full-round action by the way, not just an attack action or standard action). The wraith lacks this verbiage. As such...there's no rule for the wraith.
Now, this is the Rules Forum, so we have to work with the RAW as much as possible. Personally, ignoring RAW, I would have no problem with it given the limited healing it would provide. Using the lich as a guideline would make sense.
Now see, that's all we needed. Confusion might have sufficed too. Though it does make me wonder why the lich is worse at it....
Confusion and Terrible Remorse aren't the greatest examples at making something hit itself, as they use a wording that says they're dealing damage to itself, and a fixed amount, rather than simply making attacking themselves.
In another counter-example, I would like to bring up the salikotal devil, who needs a special ability in order to perform coup-de-grace attacks against itself. The wording generally implies that performing coup-de-grace attacks on yourself is not normally possible, even if you voluntarily make yourself helpless.
I'm not actually convinced the wraith can attack itself.
I think there is a good thought line where you could say its attacks wouldn't heal itself just because its not really creating new negative energy when it hits itself. But your looking more of a rules question I think so it sounds like it would be up to gm and a house rule.
My interpretation would be similar to channeling: positive or negative energy (unless under specific circumstances like feats or the lich rule) may either harm OR heal, and the wraith, for instance, is not cited as being able to switch between the two. I'd rule that unless specifically called out like the lich, undead negative energy attacks can only harm the living.
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My interpretation would be similar to channeling: positive or negative energy (unless under specific circumstances like feats or the lich rule) may either harm OR heal, and the wraith, for instance, is not cited as being able to switch between the two. I'd rule that unless specifically called out like the lich, undead negative energy attacks can only harm the living.
Yeah, this is my understanding as well. Just because something deals positive energy damage doesn't mean it heals the living and just because it deals negative energy damage doesn't mean it heals the undead. For channeling, you have to choose, clearly showing that there's a difference. Cure/Inflict spells, the Lich's touch attacks and the Positive/Negative Energy Plane are specifically stated to do both, again making it clear that this is not the default behavior for positive/negative energy. So, unless the creature's stat block states that this attack can heal as well as harm, it only deals damage.
However, negative energy, unless specifically stated, can never harm undead and positive energy doesn't harm the living. Look also at this FAQ post.
I doubt that the rules intended for a wraith to do this, but per RAW, it's possible, based on how undead creatures defaultly interact with Negative Energy (heal from it). Also, most Negative Energy effects usually have clauses that state it doesn't heal undead for it to, you know, not heal undead.
That being said, I'm shocked at people saying you can't attack yourself, even when it's quite obvious from a real life standpoint that you most certainly can hit yourself.
By that logic, a disgraced Samurai cannot commit Seppuku in Pathfinder (something that is honor-bound to their code), which is just plain bonkers.
I doubt that the rules intended for a wraith to do this, but per RAW, it's possible, based on how undead creatures defaultly interact with Negative Energy (heal from it). Also, most Negative Energy effects usually have clauses that state it doesn't heal undead for it to, you know, not heal undead.
That being said, I'm shocked at people saying you can't attack yourself, even when it's quite obvious from a real life standpoint that you most certainly can hit yourself.
By that logic, a disgraced Samurai cannot commit Seppuku in Pathfinder (something that is honor-bound to their code), which is just plain bonkers.
Ah, here's the thing though: we are in the Rules Forum, so we needed to dig up a rule saying you can attack yourself. I'm not going to claim it makes sense, nor am I going to invoke real-world examples, as the rules don't have to do either. After all, the rules are notoriously silent about what actions you can take when you're dead-or even if you fall prone.
I do agree with your comment about doubting the rules intended for the wraith to heal itself, but unfortunately I can't seem to find the RAI Forum ;)
I doubt that the rules intended for a wraith to do this, but per RAW, it's possible, based on how undead creatures defaultly interact with Negative Energy (heal from it). Also, most Negative Energy effects usually have clauses that state it doesn't heal undead for it to, you know, not heal undead.
That being said, I'm shocked at people saying you can't attack yourself, even when it's quite obvious from a real life standpoint that you most certainly can hit yourself.
By that logic, a disgraced Samurai cannot commit Seppuku in Pathfinder (something that is honor-bound to their code), which is just plain bonkers.
Ah, here's the thing though: we are in the Rules Forum, so we needed to dig up a rule saying you can attack yourself. I'm not going to claim it makes sense, nor am I going to invoke real-world examples, as the rules don't have to do either. After all, the rules are notoriously silent about what actions you can take when you're dead-or even if you fall prone.
I do agree with your comment about doubting the rules intended for the wraith to heal itself, but unfortunately I can't seem to find the RAI Forum ;)
If I can attack a square that may or may not inhabit a creature (because they're invisible and I can't see them), then I can attack my own square, which I inhabit, which means that attack directs itself to me because I inhabit that square. There's your rule.
Also consider that, if I can't attack myself, then Touch Spells (or effects that require touching, such as Lay On Hands) cannot be applied to myself either, even though we have rules that say otherwise. Needless to say, an inability to affect yourself breaks the game a lot more than wraiths getting the ability to slightly heal themselves.
Now those also make sense to me as reasons to allow it. Particularly your 'attack the square' argument. Touch spells and abilities do have rules for applying them to yourselves, which I view as being related but separate. Seems to me by the rules the wraith's plan to self-heal works then.
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I doubt that the rules intended for a wraith to do this, but per RAW, it's possible, based on how undead creatures defaultly interact with Negative Energy (heal from it). Also, most Negative Energy effects usually have clauses that state it doesn't heal undead for it to, you know, not heal undead.
The latter may be so, but the FAQ is pretty clear on this. This is the entry on Positive Energy.
Individual effects will tell you whether they heal living [...], harm undead, or both.
Now, if you switch "undead" and "living", you get the rules for Negative Energy. The effect has to tell us whether it deals damage to living, heals undead or both. There is no mention of a "default behavior" as you imply.
Cure/Inflict spells and the Lich's touch attack state that they do both, Channel Energy states that you have to choose. The Wraith's touch attack doesn't explicitly tell us either, but it's in a stat block for the Wraith's melee attack. And the rules for stat blocks are as follows:Melee: The creature’s melee attacks are listed here, with its attack roll modifier listed after the attack’s name followed by the damage in parentheses.
Emphasis mine.
Putting two and two together, anything listed in parentheses for the melee attack is the damage of the attack. Damage is defined as the reduction of hitpoints. Yes, there's additional effects such as ability damage, but they either have to be explained in the creature description or are standard terms taken from the Combat section on damage of the CRB (page 179), none of which mention healing as being part of damage. Since the Wraith's touch attack doesn't say that it heals the undead, it only deals damage and doesn't heal.
But what's silly is that if I was a Dhampir with the Negative Energy Affinity trait, and a Wraith hits me, does that mean I gain hit points because the trait specifically states that Negative Energy heals me? Whereas if I was simply Undead, I wouldn't heal from it?
But what's silly is that if I was a Dhampir with the Negative Energy Affinity trait, and a Wraith hits me, does that mean I gain hit points because the trait specifically states that Negative Energy heals me? Whereas if I was simply Undead, I wouldn't heal from it?
No, there's an FAQ that basically revises how Negative Energy Affinity works. In my opinion, it's more of an errata than an FAQ since the rules are not just unclear, but have different effects on the game, but details.
Negative Energy Affinity (Ex) The creature is alive, but is treated as undead for all effects that affect undead differently than living creatures, such as cure spells and channeled energy.
So, you are treated as undead for the purpose of the Wraith's touch attack. It makes no mention of turning damage into healing or the other way around. And the only default consequence of negative energy on an undead is that it doesn't harm you. Again, back to the previous FAQ on negative energy.
Positive energy [...] never directly damages the living or heals undead, barring some special effect that explicitly changes this
If you switch "positive" with "negative" and switch "living" and "undead", you get the rules for negative energy. Since negative energy affects living differently from undead, the Wraith's touch attack is a negative energy effect and dhampirs are treated as undead for such an effect, you simply don't take damage.
Its possible for living creatures to take damage from Positive Energy, so I would say Undead could take damage from Negative Energy.
Yes, but only if a more specific rule "explicitly changes this", such as Negative Energy Affinity. I don't know of any other rule or effect that says that positive energy deals damage to living creatures or that negative energy deals damage to undead. Certainly, there is no such rule governing the Wraith's touch attack. The major positive-dominant trait for planes doesn't count since it doesn't actually deal damage, just state that the creature dies.
Interestingly, the positive-dominant trait, unlike negative-dominant, does not specifically call out living or undead creatures, so going purely by the rules, undead creatures (and dhampir) would also gain fast healing on positive-dominant planes which doesn't seem like the intention at all.
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Its possible for li8ving creatures to take damage from Positive Energy, so I would say Undead could take damage from Negative Energy.Yes, but only if a more specific rule "explicitly changes this", such as Negative Energy Affinity. I don't know of any other rule or effect that says that positive energy deals damage to living creatures or that negative energy deals damage to undead. Certainly, there is no such rule governing the Wraith's touch attack. The major positive-dominant trait for planes doesn't count since it doesn't actually deal damage, just state that the creature dies.
Interestingly, the positive-dominant trait, unlike negative-dominant, does not specifically call out living or undead creatures, so going purely by the rules, undead creatures (and dhampir) would also gain fast healing on positive-dominant planes which doesn't seem like the intention at all.
I believe the "default" is that all damage removes hit point from creatures, and other rules create exceptions to this. I don't think that there is a general rule that states that negative energy typed damage does not remove hitpoints from undead creatures nor positive energy from living creatures, only specific rules that specific instances of positive/negative typed energy damage do something other than remove hit points.
I believe the "default" is that all damage removes hit point from creatures, and other rules create exceptions to this. I don't think that there is a general rule that states that negative energy typed damage does not remove hitpoints from undead creatures nor positive energy from living creatures
Yep, that's a fair assessment, but it depends on what you mean by a "general" rule. To me, the FAQ seems pretty unambiguous in establishing general rules for positive and negative energy and makes it clear that positive energy harming living creatures and negative energy harming undead creatures would be the exception rather than the rule. It states that, generally speaking, positive energy never harms the living and negative energy never harms undead.
I suppose it would depend on which ruling you see as more general and which as more specific. Are the combat rules in the CRB (defining damage as loss of hit points) more general? In that case, the rules in the FAQ would hold even for things that are defined as positive/negative energy damage. The living would be immune to positive energy damage and undead to negative energy damage.But if the rules governing all positive/negative energy in the FAQ are more general, then living creatures generally still get harmed by positive energy damage and vice versa for negative energy damage and undead.
I'm not sure if there's a good precedent of which option to choose. I would think it's the former, but I can definitely see a good reason for choosing the latter.
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By that logic, a disgraced Samurai cannot commit Seppuku in Pathfinder (something that is honor-bound to their code), which is just plain bonkers.
There's actually a rule for that in Jade Regent - you can make a coup de grace attack on yourself.