Throwing improvised weapons

[graystone]

If you throw an improvised weapon, is it a thrown weapon? For instance, if I have Distance Thrower do I reduce my penalties on ranged attack rolls for range? Do I get the +10' range from the trait Strong Arm, Supple Wrist?

[Garbage-Tier Waifu]

If you have Throw Anything, don't you basically treat any improvised weapon as a trown weapon?

[graystone]

Garbage-Tier Waifu wrote:

If you have Throw Anything, don't you basically treat any improvised weapon as a trown weapon?

I hope so but thrown weapon isn't clearly defined so...

As a bonus, I have found monsters that use ranged improvised weapons and they add strength damage so there is that. To me it seems like they are thrown but I wanted to see if there is anything pointing to their not being thrown weapons.

[James Risner]

If you throw a weapon, it’s a thrown weapon.
If a weapon has a range and can be thrown, but you MeLee with it it isn’t a thrown weapon for that MeLee attack.

So yea things that enhance thrown weapons will do so for your improvised thrown weapon.

[graystone]

Been looking at Monk of the Empty Hand for an improvised weapon build and noticed the Far strike monk that has much better feats. However, this adds a new question.

James Risner wrote:

If you throw a weapon, it’s a thrown weapon.

If a weapon has a range and can be thrown, but you MeLee with it it isn’t a thrown weapon for that MeLee attack.

So yea things that enhance thrown weapons will do so for your improvised thrown weapon.

If that's true, then how do we reconcile a far strike monk being proficient with all thrown weapons? Does that mean that they are proficient with all improvised weapons you throw? I know it's possible to be proficient in improvised weapons as the Shikigami that has it. "A shikigami is proficient with improvised weapons." Sorry to add this now, I wasn't looking at far strike when I made the thread and it's too late to change it. I just looked at the archetype and wondered if I'd need to take Throw Anything or not, though actual proficiency would open up other feats like Disposable Weapon or Splintering Weapon.

PS: Thanks for the reply James. I assumed that's the way it worked but with all the questions about 'is an improvised weapon a weapon', I thought it best to ask to make sure I wasn't missing anything. ;)

PPS: LOVING the new support for improvised weapons in the new adventurer's armory 2. It makes it a viable build with some nice versatility. Kudo's to the authors!

[James Risner]

There is a whole lot of “the cat is superpositioned as both dead and alive” going on here.

If you are proficient with all throwing weapons, you have proficiency. That doesn’t depend on use. You’d be proficient using it as a melee weapon.

But if you have a “+2 damage on throwing weapons” and you use that as a melee then you don’t get the +2 because you attached in melee.

So for things that depend on you needing it to be throwing to gain a benefit, if you melee you don’t add. For things that don’t depend, like proficiency you don’t lose.

[graystone]

James Risner wrote:

If you are proficient with all throwing weapons, you have proficiency. That doesn’t depend on use. You’d be proficient using it as a melee weapon.

But how do you determine what a thrown weapon is then? What weapon proficiencies does a far strike monk get? The only list is the weapon group but people have said that isn't it because it has slings and such on it. So is it weapons that have a range that aren't projectile weapons? If that's the case, how do improvised weapons not fit?

So, please James, how would you determine what weapons the far strike monk can use that doesn't go through "a whole lot of “the cat is superpositioned as both dead and alive”"? Take into account that improvised weapons can have range increments: for instance, Disk-Shaped ones, like plates, "have a range increment of 20 feet" and even the generic improvised weapon "possess a range increment of 10 feet."

So what determines what a thrown weapon is if you aren't currently throwing it?

PS: And just to say, this isn't a way to 'cheese'/loophole around needing a feat to use the weapons. It's easier/better to take a Halflings with Resourceful to "not take any penalties for using improvised weapons" and "counts as the Catch Off Guard or Throw Anything feats for the purpose of qualifying for feats." Seeing far strike monk has just brought up my question of 'what's a thrown weapon' again. It just has a spin I haven't thought of before: improvised weapons.

[graystone]

I have another question: Can a far strike monk flurry with thrown improvised weapons?

[James Risner]

I interpret “proficient with all thrown weapons” as “weapons with listed ranges”. I won’t argue with “weapons in the thrown fighter weapon group” interpretation.

Improvised weapons are not listed, so you wouldn’t be proficient with a thrown improvised bottle. But it would be a thrown weapon when thrown.

If you are not currently throwing a weapon, it’s not a thrown weapon if the effect isn’t classification based. For example the proficient with thrown goes off the weapon classification. Something like “can craft thrown weapons at 10%” would Wouk for throwing daggers but not longbows or improvised weapons because neither are thrown weapons. Maybe they could be thrown and if thrown they would be thrown weapons for that attack.

Considering none of this is officially answers, it’s all going to be an Ask your GM thing.

[James Risner]

Far Strike flurry with improvised. I think you will have many different RAW interpretations of that questions. I’ll give you mine.

A far Strike monk throwing an improvised weapon wouldn’t be proficient.
They could negate those penalties with something that negates non proficient penalties for improvised weapons.
They could flurry as each attack is a thrown weapon attack.

I’m sure a popular interpretation is that they can’t flurrybecause improvised weapons are not classified as thrown, but have the generic “lots of things can be thrown - here is how to do it” rules.

[Craig Logan 597]

I've always interpreted it like this.

Catch off Guard - gives proficiency in improvised weapons

Throw Anything - allows you to treat improvised weapons as thrown weapons for how they are treated by feats and abilities. Similar to how Slashing Grace works.

In order for a Far Strike monk to Flurry with Improvised Weapons they would need both Catch Off Guard and Throw Anything.

[graystone]

Thanks for the replies.

James Risner wrote:

I interpret “proficient with all thrown weapons” as “weapons with listed ranges”. I won’t argue with “weapons in the thrown fighter weapon group” interpretation.

Improvised weapons do have listed ranges though. When you say listed, do you mean listed on the weapons charts?

James Risner wrote:

For example the proficient with thrown goes off the weapon classification. Something like “can craft thrown weapons at 10%” would Wouk for throwing daggers but not longbows or improvised weapons because neither are thrown weapons. Maybe they could be thrown and if thrown they would be thrown weapons for that attack.

This is the thing that throws me. [pun intended] There is no weapon classification so I'm left to guess/infer what they mean by 'thrown weapon'. [they meaning whoever made/edited the feature in question] this would be SO much easier if thrown was a weapon feature like trip, disarm or monk.

James Risner wrote:

Far Strike flurry with improvised. I think you will have many different RAW interpretations of that questions. I’ll give you mine.

Thanks!

James Risner wrote:

A far Strike monk throwing an improvised weapon wouldn’t be proficient.

They could negate those penalties with something that negates non proficient penalties for improvised weapons.
They could flurry as each attack is a thrown weapon attack.

Okie dokie. I can see the reasoning behind that. I'd be fine playing it that way but it's a bit irksome to have "thrown weapon" mean different things in the same archetype.

James Risner wrote:

I’m sure a popular interpretation is that they can’t flurrybecause improvised weapons are not classified as thrown, but have the generic “lots of things can be thrown - here is how to do it” rules.

I wouldn't be surprised at all to see this interpretation, but that leads to "what IS classified as a thrown weapon". In addition, there is a quality of improvised weapons in the adventurer's armory 2 that always has a range. [Disk-Shaped have a range increment of 20 feet] Even if generic improvised weapons wouldn't work, I'd argue that disked shapes would. In addition, I'd argue that items that are balanced and meant to be thrown would also work. Dartboard darts, jugglesticks, stuff from a juggling kit [well-balanced objects, such as balls, clubs, knives, rings, and torches], ect.

James Risner wrote:

Considering none of this is officially answers, it’s all going to be an Ask your GM thing.

I figured as much. I dug through the forum before posting so I assumed it'd be everyone's opinions, unless of course a FAQ/errata or something came out recently that I missed.

[graystone]

Replied in separate post from last one as it was getting long.

Craig Logan 597 wrote:

Catch off Guard - gives proficiency in improvised weapons

All improvised weapons and not just melee ones?

I've always read it that lack of any non-proficiency penalties meant proficiency but there is a lot of people that don't read it that way. It's functionally the same thing the proficiency feats give. [none actually grant proficiency...]

Craig Logan 597 wrote:

Throw Anything - allows you to treat improvised weapons as thrown weapons for how they are treated by feats and abilities. Similar to how Slashing Grace works.

I hope this is the way it works but I've been surprised by rulings before.

Craig Logan 597 wrote:

In order for a Far Strike monk to Flurry with Improvised Weapons they would need both Catch Off Guard and Throw Anything.

This confuses me. You don't have to be proficient in a weapon to flurry with it. A core monk can pick up a seven branch sword and flurry with it, he just takes a -4 non proficiency penalty. There is also the question I asked under the Catch Off-guard post.

[VIPfr33dom]

Catch Off-Guard (Combat)

Foes are surprised by your skilled use of unorthodox and improvised weapons.

Benefit: You do not suffer any penalties for using an improvised melee weapon. Unarmed opponents are flat-footed against any attacks you make with an improvised melee weapon.

Normal: You take a –4 penalty on attack rolls made with an improvised weapon.
Source: Catch-off-guard, Feats

Throw Anything (Combat)

You are used to throwing things you have on hand.

Benefit: You do not suffer any penalties for using an improvised ranged weapon. You receive a +1 circumstance bonus on attack rolls made with thrown splash weapons.

Normal: You take a –4 penalty on attack rolls made with an improvised weapon.

Source:
Throw Anything, Feats

Melee and Ranged Weapons

Melee weapons are used for making melee attacks, though some of them can be thrown as well. Ranged weapons are thrown weapons or projectile weapons that are not effective in melee.

Reach Weapons: A reach weapon is a melee weapon that allows its wielder to strike at targets that aren’t adjacent to him. Most reach weapons double the wielder’s natural reach, meaning that a typical Small or Medium wielder of such a weapon can attack a creature 10 feet away, but not a creature in an adjacent square. A typical Large character wielding a reach weapon of the appropriate size can attack a creature 15 or 20 feet away, but not adjacent creatures or creatures up to 10 feet away.

Double Weapons: A character can fight with both ends of a double weapon as if fighting with two weapons, but he incurs all the normal attack penalties associated with two-weapon combat, just as though the character were wielding a one-handed weapon and a light weapon. The character can also choose to use a double weapon two-handed, attacking with only one end of it. A creature wielding a double weapon in one hand can’t use it as a double weapon—only one end of the weapon can be used in any given round.

Thrown Weapons: The wielder applies his Strength modifier to damage dealt by thrown weapons (except for splash weapons). It is possible to throw a weapon that isn’t designed to be thrown (that is, a melee weapon that doesn’t have a numeric entry in the Range column on Table: Weapons), and a character who does so takes a –4 penalty on the attack roll. Throwing a light or one-handed weapon is a standard action, while throwing a two-handed weapon is a full-round action. Regardless of the type of weapon, such an attack scores a threat only on a natural 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. Such a weapon has a range increment of 10 feet.

Projectile Weapons: Most projectile weapons require two hands to use (see specific weapon descriptions). A character gets no Strength bonus on damage rolls with a projectile weapon unless it’s a specially built composite shortbow or longbow, or a sling. If the character has a penalty for low Strength, apply it to damage rolls when he uses a bow or a sling.

Ammunition: Projectile weapons use ammunition: arrows (for bows), bolts (for crossbows), darts (for blowguns), or sling bullets (for slings and halfling sling staves). When using a bow, a character can draw ammunition as a free action; crossbows and slings require an action for reloading (as noted in their descriptions). Generally speaking, ammunition that hits its target is destroyed or rendered useless, while ammunition that misses has a 50% chance of being destroyed or lost. Although they are thrown weapons, shuriken are treated as ammunition for the purposes of drawing them, crafting masterwork or otherwise special versions of them, and what happens to them after they are thrown.
Source:
Weapons

Weapon and Armor Proficiency

Monks of the empty hand are proficient with the shuriken only. A monk of the empty hand treats normal weapons as improvised weapons with the following equivalencies (substituting all of their statistics for the listed weapon): a light weapon functions as a light hammer, a one-handed weapon functions as a club, and a Two-handed weapon functions as a quarterstaff.

This replaces the normal monk weapon proficiencies.
Flurry of Blows (Ex)

Starting at 1st level, a monk of the empty hand can make a flurry of blows using any combination of unarmed strikes or attacks with an improvised weapon. He may not make a flurry of blows with any other weapons, including special monk weapons.

A monk of the empty hand’s flurry of blows otherwise functions as normal for a monk of his level.

Source:
Monk, Archetype

These sources should aid you.

[graystone]

VIPfr33dom: Those literally offer nothing new to the debate. None of those sources offer any real insight into a improvised 'thrown weapon' as far as rules interactions. In addition, the monk archetype isn't the one in question.

I #1 looked at every one of those rules you linked BEFORE I posted and #2 you posted the wrong archetype, as that one has NO special interaction with thrown weapons. So I'm unsure why you posted that wall of text.

So while I appreciate the effort, it really wasn't any help. Remember, I'm asking about the interaction between improvised weapons and thrown weapons, so simply posting rules that only talk about one or the other aren't useful. [I've already looked at them].

Also, the bolded part in your thrown weapon quote isn't about improvised weapons. You get full bonuses with the weapon, like magic, weapon focus, ect, when throwing a weapon not meant be thrown: You take a "–4 penalty on the attack roll" not the you're "considered to be nonproficient with it" that improvised weapons has.

PS: The reason I'm looking at far strike vs empty hand is that far strike actually has useful bonus feats for thrown ranged combat. It's fairly feat intensive to use and far strike gets you point blank, far shot and quickdraw by second level. Even if I can't flurry with improvised weapons, far strike is still FAR superior if I'm throwing things.

[VIPfr33dom]

graystone wrote:

If you throw an improvised weapon, is it a thrown weapon? For instance, if I have Distance Thrower do I reduce my penalties on ranged attack rolls for range? Do I get the +10' range from the trait Strong Arm, Supple Wrist?

I responded to your initial post, where my reference to 'Thrown Weapons' categorized what a thrown weapon is, according to RAW.

Which justifies the use of both 'Distance thrower' and Strong arm, Supple Wrist.

Weapons are categorized as reach, melee, thrown and projectile, which I referenced, for ease. The feat's Catch-off-guard and Throw Anything clarifies how you may wield improvised weapons (melee & as thrown weapons), I referenced that.

Responses to above:
#1 Your posts didnt imply you had already doublechecked these sources.
#2 I did accidently copy-paste lookup the wrong archetype out of the two you had listed, sorry about that, now the debate makes alot more sense :)

Far Strike Monk:

Weapon and Armor Proficiency

In addition to the standard monk weapon proficiencies, a far strike monk is proficient with all thrown weapons.

Flurry of Blows (Ex)

A far strike monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action as long as he’s attacking with thrown weapons. He can’t make a flurry of blows with his unarmed attacks or any other weapons.

A far strike monk’s flurry of blows otherwise functions as the standard monk class feature.

A far strike monk can’t use Rapid Shot when making a flurry of blows with a thrown weapon.

This ability alters flurry of blows.
Source: Correct Monk Archetype

I sort of second James, even though he doesn't need it;
The Monk gains proficiency in the thrown weapon group (including listed throwable weapons, excluding improvised). You gain proficiency in the weapon rather than 'proficiency in throwing weapons for the purpose of throwing'.
But flurry of blows is likely referencing the way you wield the weapon rather than a weapongroup, so you'd only be able to throw weapons (including listed and improvised weapons) as part of a flurry. So you'd be unable to strike with weapons of the 'thrown weapon group' in melee during a flurry.

[graystone]

VIPfr33dom: Sorry if my posts aren't clear. Yeah, I dug into everything I could find first. My real confusion comes from 'thrown weapons' sometimes being how you are attacking and at others a weapon group/type. It would be nice if there was a way to differentiate between the two.

WHile I HOPE it works as you and James say, it's equally valid to say a rule is using thrown weapons as the weapon type/group: For instance, a far strike monk flurrying in melee with a 'thrown weapon'. It's hard to say with 100% certainty when the term means multiple things.

Then you add in improvised, which isn't clearly it's own group/type or a subsection of other types/groups. I'm just trying to avoid as many obstacles with my imp weapon build. I figured if nothing else I could point a prospective DM to here if they questioned it.

SO thanks for the opinion/post. So far everyone seems to be more or less on the same page, so I'm getting more confident in my ability to use my build. Luckily, I can avoid one pitfall of far strike monk by not using a traditional weapon so I can avoid the issue of what weapons they are proficient in.