The problem I see with the rogue is there really have no way of increasing their to hit bonus. Take Vivisectionist Alchemist, they have sneak attack but can boost their to hit. So they can sneak attack better than rogue.
Take a ELF and using 15 point build you have Str 16, Dex 12, Con 12, Int 14, Wis 10, Chr 8
Using a mutagen you have 20 Str same as a rogue with Dex of 18 but you get +5 damage from strength and don't need to blow feat on Weapon Finesse. At level 2 the Alchemist gets even better. Feral Mutagen for 3 attacks at the full attack bonus with full strength bonus. Didn't have to waste a feat on Two Weapon fighting. Now a good chance to hit for 3 sneak attacks. It just get better as the Alchemist goes up too.
I mean you see this and start to question the rogues role. What else can the rogue do, skills? Nope, the Bard does that much better than the rogue with versatile performance, loremaster and Jack of all trades.
So traps seem to be the only remaining thing a rogue can do that most other classes can't but even there couple ranger archetypes and a bard archetype can fill that role. Traps aren't all that much of problem anyways so being super specialized in traps doesn't buy you much.
In the end anything that is left the ninja can do better.
I'm almost of the opinion that the rogue class doesn't need to exist.
In my games there has always been a rogue in the group. People love the concept. Damage wise the rogue does tend dominate DPR up to level 5. From level 6-10 they slide down the scaled. Currently have rogue struggling to hit level appropriate creatures where the rogues is level 13. The Paladin and Ranger are dishing out about 2-3 times the damage the rogue does. The rogue used to out damage them back when we first started. Every so often that player gets lucky and does about the same as the other characters.
So even as weak as the rogue is players still love playing them.
Here, my house rules for Rogues. In my experience, they make rogues a tad more effective in combat, but not that much as to overclass a ranger and probably on the level of a melee bard.
Skirmish:
- All rogues receive the scout archetype's "skirmisher" talent and normal sneak attacks at first level.
Nimble Mind : A rogue can add his dexterity bonus to his will check to resist mind affecting effects to a maximum of his rogue level.
Precise strike:
- Starting at level 3 A rogue can sacrifice, as a free action, a dice of sneak attack for a bonus of +1 on his BAB. He can only sacrifice a maximum of half his dices (round down) this way and must choose to do so before the roll is made. The BAB bonus granted by Precise strike can also be used on disarm, trip and sunder attemps. If sundering, the remaining sneak attack dices also apply to overcome the hardness of the object being sundered.
Shadow Strike:
All rogues gain the feat Shadow Strike for free at fifth level, if they already have Shadow Strike, they can choose another feat or rogue talent instead.
Dextrous Strike
Starting at level 7, a rogue may add his dexterity bonus to damage on any sneak attack. This bonus is multiplied in case of a critical strike.
Sneaky strike:
Sarting at level 11, the rogue may choose to sacrifice a maximum of half his sneak attack dices for BAB after the roll is made.
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So even as weak as the rogue is players still love playing them.
I think this is an excellent point.
The rogue concept is awesome, the execution...
Full BaB would open up a lot of things, but I don't know that the rogue should be as weapon effective as a fighter/ranger/barbarian when you consider that is going to up the number of attack significantly, which is the name of the game with sneak attack.
I think the rogue needs to be better able to get sneak attack of without so much dependence on others, as well in situations where they aren't in as much jeopardy for having a full attack coming right back at them.
Full BaB doesn't solve the problems I have with the class, and it doesn't make the rogue more "rogue-like" so I would pass on adding it, personally.
rouges should deal less damage then a fighter/ranger/barb/pali but If they max dex like the fighter/barb they should be able to hit almost as well. while using a light weapon and they probably have the same amount to hit since the rouge probably isn't power attacking. now if the rouge feels that they need to spend points elsewhere in their stats it is because they dont want to be as good in combat as a class entirely based around combat. but they can hit just as easily as a full bab class. now if you add 2wf and power attack the -3 + -1 /4 bab will kill your to hit not to mention the weapon cost. I like 2wf rouges they deal the most damage on paper that I had ever seen in a martial class before the solo a tauraque build and RAGELANCEPOUNCE build. sorry for double post
I disagree, the classes you mentioned all have an ability to improve their chances to hit, the rogue does not, beyond status effects, and conditions. Fighters have weapon training, Barbarians rage, rangers have favored enemy, paladins smite, and even the ninja can strike from invisibility.
Here, my house rules for Rogues. In my experience, they make rogues a tad more effective in combat, but not that much as to overclass a ranger and probably on the level of a melee bard.
Skirmish:
- All rogues receive the scout archetype's "skirmisher" talent and normal sneak attacks at first level.Nimble Mind : A rogue can add his dexterity bonus to his will check to resist mind affecting effects to a maximum of his rogue level.
Precise strike:
- Starting at level 3 A rogue can sacrifice, as a free action, a dice of sneak attack for a bonus of +1 on his BAB. He can only sacrifice a maximum of half his dices (round down) this way and must choose to do so before the roll is made. The BAB bonus granted by Precise strike can also be used on disarm, trip and sunder attemps. If sundering, the remaining sneak attack dices also apply to overcome the hardness of the object being sundered.Shadow Strike:
All rogues gain the feat Shadow Strike for free at fifth level, if they already have Shadow Strike, they can choose another feat or rogue talent instead.Dextrous Strike
Starting at level 7, a rogue may add his dexterity bonus to damage on any sneak attack. This bonus is multiplied in case of a critical strike.Sneaky strike:
Sarting at level 11, the rogue may choose to sacrifice a maximum of half his sneak attack dices for BAB after the roll is made.
I really like the Precise Strike idea. I think I may still it for my game.
Master Arminas
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what about a scout? move 10 ft then sneak attack get spring attack and you are fine. fighters deal +1dmg/4 levels at level 5 and an additional +2 dmg at level 4 and 12. weapon training and weapon spec. adding full bab to the rouge is just wrong I would NEVER make a fighter if I could play a class with sneak attack and full BAB. add the +6? skill points a level and evasion and now I've got gravy. You still can get a feat every even level (rouge talent) although a much more restrictive 1. In my campaigns the fighters do the most damage. The scout gets at least 1 sneak attack per round at level 8. If you want people to play a rouge add a trap everywhere and make them magical traps. Or throw 2 scouts at your party and have them kill a character or 2. they just may not have the imagination to see how good the rouge really is.
However the class doesn't get any advantages to speed or to obtaining spring attack.
Monks for example, both have a movement advantage and can get spring attack without the pre-requisites. Nice for the "Stun and Run" move.
That 10 feet of movement negates your ability to make multiple attacks and doesn't arrive until 8th level, when most things you are fighting have reach.
Also, fighters primary is Strength, which both adds to damage and ability to hit.
Rogues need Dex to be able to position and to take advantage of the light armor requirement of evasion. Weapon Finesse doesn't add damage, so you are basically left doing just weapon damage and sneak attack damage if you are properly positioned.
A 1st level Fighter with 18 strength and a two handed weapon does more damage with a higher attack than most rogues rogue making a sneak attack, for example. (+6 for the fighter 2 handed)
Scout isn't bad, and it is a fair trade off for the uncanny dodge chain but it doesn't fix much.
I'm seriously considering giving Rogues the Anti-Paladin's Cruelty mechanic. It would be an Extraordinary ability instead of Supernatural, but that means Diseased, Cursed and Poison effects are no longer available. The Save DCs are based off the Rogue's Int modifier instead of Charisma (although, I'm considering Dex modifier). In order to use Cruelty (I'm looking to change the name, any ideas?), the rogue must perform a Sneak Attack on the intended target, but only once per round.
I removed a post and a reply to it. Be nice. And flag it and move on.