|
Put simply, do I have to maintain my grapple as my first action on the round after I initiated the grapple?
For instance, may I:
1. Grab a weapon from a handy haversack as a move action, and then standard action maintain (using the weapon to deal damage)?
2. Grab some rope as a move action, then standard action maintain?
3. Cast Truestrike as a standard action, then move action maintain (with Greater Grapple, and the normal checks for concentration)?
|
|
Additionally, at what point is my foe no longer considered grappled if I choose not to maintain the grapple?
If I have greater grapple, and I take my first action as a standard action to attack, is my opponent still considered grappled then? What I full attacked instead (using other limbs)?
I'm assuming that they are grappled until the end of my turn, or I spend a free action to let go.
Grapple changes what options you have available to you.
To your questions...
1. No
*However, with Greater Grapple you can do this but they would just both be actions for you.
2. Same as 1
They are grappled until you decide they are not (free action) or you fail/decide not to maintain. If you are not going to maintain then they are free at the beginning of your turn. If you release them using the free action option, they are out of the grapple at that time.
Attacking is an option in grappling and requires a CMD check, once you do this you are still grappling them (provided you win). You cannot full attack without releasing the grapple.
Grapple says "If you do not release the grapple, you must continue to make a check each round, as a standard action, to maintain the hold."
If you do something else as your first action, then you've got Schrodinger's Grapple. You haven't released the grapple, nor have you maintained it. It is for this reason that I believe you must do one or the other before doing anything else.
If it is indeed the case that you must release or maintain a grapple before doing anything else, then your question(s) become moot.
|
|
Attacking is an option in grappling and requires a CMD check, once you do this you are still grappling them (provided you win). You cannot full attack without releasing the grapple.
I can see the full attack reasoning, but I don't think that attacking must be done through CMB checks. For instance, Move action maintain (CMB), -then- standard action vital strike (against AC) should be legal. I mean, the defender can do it, why not the controller of the grapple (so long as he maintains the grapple)?
|
|
Grapple says "If you do not release the grapple, you must continue to make a check each round, as a standard action, to maintain the hold."
If you do something else as your first action, then you've got Schrodinger's Grapple. You haven't released the grapple, nor have you maintained it. It is for this reason that I believe you must do one or the other before doing anything else.
If it is indeed the case that you must release or maintain a grapple before doing anything else, then your question(s) become moot.
I think this would be correct if the grapple condition "naturally" ends at the start of your turn (which is probably the case).
However, if the grapple naturally ends at the end of your turn, and requires a free action to let go (so you can full attack with two hands), then I don't think Schrodinger's Grapple applies: They are simply grappled until end of turn, or a free action to end the grapple, or the end of your next turn if you maintain. That's a big IF though, but it avoids the possibility of ambiguity.
|
|
Grapple says "If you do not release the grapple, you must continue to make a check each round, as a standard action, to maintain the hold."
If you do something else as your first action, then you've got Schrodinger's Grapple. You haven't released the grapple, nor have you maintained it. It is for this reason that I believe you must do one or the other before doing anything else.
If it is indeed the case that you must release or maintain a grapple before doing anything else, then your question(s) become moot.
I think this would be correct if the grapple condition "naturally" ends at the start of your turn (which is probably the case).
However, if the grapple naturally ends at the end of your turn, and requires a free action to let go (so you can full attack with two hands), then I don't think Schrodinger's Grapple applies: They are simply grappled until end of turn, or a free action to end the grapple, or the end of your next turn if you maintain. That's a big IF though, but it avoids the possibility of ambiguity.
Although both creatures have the grappled condition, you can, as the creature that initiated the grapple, release the grapple as a free action, removing the condition from both you and the target. If you do not release the grapple, you must continue to make a check each round, as a standard action, to maintain the hold.
I was wrong a bit in my last post: The grapple simply cannot end naturally.
Perhaps the Schrodinger's Grapple can be avoided by declaring that are going to maintain, but that you are going to draw a weapon first?
There is no "Schrodinger's Grapple" scenario. The act of grappling changes what you can do with all roads pointing to one of two decisions.
- [1.]I wish to MAINTAIN.
[2.]I wish to END.
Grappling is normally a standard action so unless you have grab or something similar you do not perform full round actions while attempting or maintaining the grapple. As the "defender" you still can take full round actions since you do not need to maintain the grapple.
If you want option 1, first order of business is that grapple check. Then you do whatever actions, or not, maybe you failed.
If you want option 2, they are released at the start of your turn or sooner if you so wish.
There is no "Schrodinger's Grapple" scenario. The act of grappling changes what you can do with all roads pointing to one of two decisions.
[1.]I wish to MAINTAIN.
[2.]I wish to END.Grappling is normally a standard action so unless you have grab or something similar you do not perform full round actions while attempting or maintaining the grapple. As the "defender" you still can take full round actions since you do not need to maintain the grapple.
If you want option 1, first order of business is that grapple check. Then you do whatever actions, or not, maybe you failed.
If you want option 2, they are released at the start of your turn or sooner if you so wish.
There is nothing in the rules that says anything of the kind. When grappling you remain grappled until one of two things happens, you release the grapple or you fail an attempt to maintain it. If you do anything else before the maintenance roll you are still grappling and whatever action you take suffers all of the consequences of being in a grapple.
You could indeed draw a weapon as a move action and then maintain as a standard. With greater grapple you could cast Bull's Strength on yourself, assuming you succeed the concentration check for casting while grappling, and then as your move action maintain the grapple. There is nothing in the grapple rules that says the actions must be performed in a particular order.
I concur with ArmchairDM. There is nothing that says the maintain has to be your first action.
Minor nitpick, with greater grapple you only need to succeed at one of the grapple attempts to successfully maintain. Ie you can fail one and still be grappling as long as you spend the other action to maintain and succeed.
The answers should be yes for all three.
+1
So if one is grappled, one remains grappled until
a) the grappler releases you as a free action
b) the grappler attempts to maintain the grapple and fails
or
c) (here's the uncertain bit) immediately after the grappler spends the last action with which he could have maintained the grapple to do anything other than maintain the grapple.
That seems somewhat indeterminate ...
Minor nitpick, with greater grapple you only need to succeed at one of the grapple attempts to successfully maintain. Ie you can fail one and still be grappling as long as you spend the other action to maintain and succeed.
I was sure that was wrong but then went and looked up greater grapple and by George that is right after all. I've been running it wrong. Learn something new every day!
|
|
So the following turn is valid for a brawler beginning her turn with a creature pinned?
Move action: Martial Flexibility>Throat Slicer
Standard action: CDG
Free action: Release the grapple
Quite possibly.
Though, keep in mind that said character spent at least 1 round getting to that point, and at least 2 CMB checks.
A character with greater grapple could do the same, a brawler just gets access to this combo earlier (kind of like a Ranger gets special feats early).
Although, finding a feat in a player companion thats broken is when use din a specific way is nothing new either.
If you do not release the grapple, you must continue to make a check each round, as a standard action, to maintain the hold.
Always read this as, Do you want to keep grappling? Yes?
Then Roll to Maintain Grapple, depending of feats or other things it costs some kind of action.... then do whatever else you got.Reasoning behind this is the language is consistent with AOE spell saves and other things that cause a constant state. Example.
Any creature that succeeds on its save but remains in the cloud must continue to save each round on your turn
Both sentences use the "must continue to" do X structure and this happens first.
On your turn I bet you expect them to save, not at the very end of your turn when you are all done doing more things to them.
This implies an order to things, this is also what makes Greater Grapple... well... Great.
I believe that the intent is that you have to maintain first thing (unless you choose to release the grapple). But this is not spelled out.
|
|
Greater grapple would provide a benefit, allowing you to persist the grapple further on.
Releasing a grapple is a free action, why can't I do it last instead of first? As for your example, making a save is not an action, you never get to decide -when- you save. There's a clear distinction there that I hope you understand. If anything, so long as it's within the parameters set for the ability, the person who forces the save on you gets to decide when you need to make the save.
In bullet point form:
1. The save happens on your turn because of your spell, you decide when it happens.
2. The save happens not on the defending person's turn when they'd normally have agency.
3. Saves are not actions, you don't really get to decide when you're going to save!