A player insisted on second/third/etc. opinions because they disagreed with my reading of the situation, so:
One of LT Simoun's powers is:
"You may evade your encounter. If you do, move and end your turn."
Another power is:
"When you move, you may examine the top card of your location deck. If it is a monster, you may encounter it"
My questions are:
- if you evade - are you allowed to examine the top of your location after you move and before you end your turn?
- if YES to the above - are you then allowed to encounter an examined monster before you end your turn?
Hmmm... the first power end the turn so I would say no...
If the ansver to the first is yes, then second is yes too, but then you need to get the first yes from some AI or other supreme being! It all depends on if powers Are interrupts or not. But if I am not wron, you have to finish one thing in the Pathfinder before starting another, so thats why I Expect the ansver to be no. In MTG the result would be yes, because there Are interrupts in that game...
Yay, Hawkmoon. Read his stuff :)
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This is a bit tricky, and comes down to how "forceful" the instruction to end your turn is.
First, I think the easiest thing to say you can't do is actually encounter the card. I'd say that because of this:
If you are forced to end your turn during an encounter, shuffle the encountered card back into the deck, or if it was summoned, banish it; it is neither defeated nor undefeated, and the encounter is over.
If you can't continue an encounter when you are forced to end your turn during the encounter, I can't see how you should be allowed to continue an encounter when you are forced to end your turn prior to the encounter. So, actually encountering seems off the table.
So, the real question is whether you should be allowed to examine the card or not. I'd personally say no. Once you are forced to end your turn, I'd say you can continue to resolve anything that is still in play, but you can't activate new powers. That is, after all, the basic thrust of this rule:
End Your Turn: First, apply any effects that happen at the end of the turn. While you do this, unless a power directed you to end your turn, you may play cards and use powers.
So, for example, if a spell was played but not recharged because you were interrupted and forced to end your turn. Even if that spell doesn't technically recharge at the end of the turn, I'd take care of recharging it, but not allow cards to be used or powers to be played. I'm not sure that example could really happen, but it is what I would do.
If Lightning Thief was worded as "move then end your turn" you might have a bit of a case for letting you activate powers related to moving. But even that would be stretching it. But as is, move is linked with ending your turn. I treat them as basically one instruction.
If Lightning Thief was worded as "move then end your turn" ...
To be clear, I'd treat that power as saying "then", as "and" is an unfortunate choice of word, when it comes to timing. It's obvious you can't *simultaneously* move and end your turn (or otherwise, there could be an argument that you're allowed to chose the order - i.e. end your turn, and *then* move - which is *not* strictly forbidden by the rules, but would be a very weird precedent of "between turns" timing), so you first move, and "then" move.
The above didn't really enter into our argument however. To be precise, just as everyone else, the only rule we discovere even tangentially related to the issue is the above-mentioned:
End Your Turn: First, apply any effects that happen at the end of the turn. While you do this, unless a power directed you to end your turn, you may play cards and use powers.
However, Simoun's power is worded
"When you move,..."
...so one side's argument is that this is 'triggered' power, i.e. it 'must' happen, every time the 'when' condition occurs. Therefore, you being granted the choice to examine is not "playing a power", but an automatic consequence, similar to "Reduce damage dealt to you by 1".
The above made me realize, there seems to be an unecessary confusion on our table if "When..." and other 'automatic' powers being triggered is in fact "playing a power", and I can't seem to find a relevant rule in the Rulebook. So, clearing this up will also be greatly appreciated :)
Ah. I see. You are getting at whether mandatory powers still happen when you can't use powers. First, Simoun's power isn't mandatory.
When you move, you may examine the top card of your location deck. If it is a monster, you may encounter it.
The "when" part only means that she can ignore the "once per step" limit. But since the power also says "may" it isn't mandatory (i.e. it is still optional).
But, let's consider a scenario power that said "When you move, you are dealt 2 Mental damage that may not be reduced."
Now, let's look at Lightning Thief Simoun. If she evades her encounter, moves and ends her turn, does she still take 2 Mental damage?
And if the answer is yes, then why is that any different from using her "when you move, you may examine" power?
Is that what you are getting at?
Picking up where I left off, but let me note I'm just conjecturing a bit here. I think the most relevant thing is this:
RULES: ACTIVE AND OPTIONAL POWERS
In the Pathfinder Adventure Card Game, there are always a lot of cards in play. But you don’t need to worry about doing what all of them say all the time. Generally, powers on cards are only active in certain situations.
• Cards in your hand
Powers on cards in your hand are active only when you choose
to play them.
• Cards you examine
When you examine cards, only powers that say they happen when you examine the card are active.
• Banes you encounter
All of a bane’s applicable powers are active while you encounter it.
• Boons you encounter
When you encounter a boon, the only powers that are active are ones that say they happen when you encounter it, if you acquire it, or if you fail to acquire it.
• Other cards you encounter
When you encounter a card that isn’t a bane or a boon, the only powers that are active are ones that say they happen when you encounter it.
• Cards in the blessings deck and discard pile With regard to these cards, the only powers that are active are ones that say they happen when they are discarded from the blessings deck or while on top of the blessings discard pile.
• Location cards
Most powers on location cards are active only when players are at that location, but a few location powers affect other situations.
• Other cards on the table
Powers on cards on the table—including story cards, character cards, and displayed cards—are active whenever they are appropriate.
Playing cards from your hand is always optional. Active powers on all other cards are only optional if they say “you may” do something.
That last sentence is the key. "Active powers on all other cards (i.e cards not in your hand) are only optional if they say “you may” do something." So, Lightning Theif's "when you move you may examine" power is optional. The "when you move you are dealt 2 mental damage" scenario power I made up is not optional.
I think when you are forced to end your turn, the optional powers are what you can't use anymore. But any active power that isn't optional is still in applied.
So, the distinction isn't so much between card type (boon vs. bane vs. story) as it is between whether the power is optional or not.
When you move, you may examine the top card of your location deck. If it is a monster, you may encounter it.
Optional. Both the examining and encountering are optional. If you are forced to end your turn before you've activated this power, you can't use it.
When you move, you are dealt 2 Mental damage that may not be reduced.
Not optional. If you are forced to end your turn before you've applied this power, you must still apply it if is it applicable.
Now, the problem with that is this:
You automatically succeed at your check to recharge a spell with the Arcane trait.
That doesn't seem to be optional (no "may"). That means, if the distinction is between optional and mandatory, Seoni can still use this power when forced to end her turn. And I've always acted like she can't.
So, there might be some need for a more direct rule to address this.
Is that what you are getting at?
Yeah, seems like it.
(EDIT: I wrote this before your second post, so you solved your own example. What I'm left with is:)
- Specifically, are the "triggered" powers, being "played"?
- The specific "mandatory" argument is along the lines of:
"I an *mandatorily* granted a *choice*, therefore I *must be allowed to chose."
...if that makes sense? I may be having difficulties conveying the meaning in English. So, to elaborate, that is why I allow a possible distinction between the examine and the encounter being legal:
- you are MADE to chose if to examine - so you may chose to do it
- you are not made to encounter the monster, so you may not do it
RotR Seoni wrote:
You automatically succeed at your check to recharge a spell with the Arcane trait.
That doesn't seem to be optional (no "may"). That means, if the distinction is between optional and mandatory, Seoni can still use this power when forced to end her turn. And I've always acted like she can't.
This would seem to matter only if something forces you to EoT mid-encounter (before 'defeated/undefeated' is determined), and I don't remember having run across such effect. Still, by your own explanation - I don't see why you *wouldn't* apply that power:
- Seoni *choses* whether to recharge her spell- if she does, she *mandatorily* recharges it, no choice involved (similar really to Simoun's "Add Perception VS Traps" power)
- Specifically, are the "triggered" powers, being "played"?
Yes, you are still using the power.
- The specific "mandatory" argument is along the lines of:
"I an *mandatorily* granted a *choice*, therefore I *must be allowed to chose."
...if that makes sense? I may be having difficulties conveying the meaning in English. So, to elaborate, that is why I allow a possible distinction between the examine and the encounter being legal:
- you are MADE to chose if to examine - so you may chose to do it
- you are not made to encounter the monster, so you may not do it.
The "when" part of the power doesn't make it mandatory. The only thing that makes it mandatory or optional is whether is uses the word "may" in the text. "When" is just a condition to that must be met for the power to be applicable. But just because that condition is met doesn't make the power mandatory. You still get to choose whether or not to activate the power because it says "may".
Wben ending your turn, you do required triggers but you cannot chose to do things. MM rulebook p8: "If a power says it may be used when something happens, you may use it every time that happens."
That quote makes it clear that choosing to do a "when you may" power counts as using a power. Ending your turn says you can't use powers, ergo no optional things for you.
The crux of the issue I think is whether or not the "end your turn" is an intrinsic part of moving or should be done after the move is completed and all movement-related powers resolved (p8: "Always perform the first action required by a power before performing any other action."). I feel that by RAW you do the move and fully resolve all movement-related effects (including optional powers, encounters, etc) and then end your turn once all of that is finished. I'm not sure what the RAI is, but I feel that doing all of that stuff is less complicated than figuring out what does or doesn't fire off.
To be clear, I'd treat that power as saying "then", as "and" is an unfortunate choice of word, when it comes to timing. ..."If Lightning Thief was worded as "move then end your turn" ...
Hum... I'm not an expert as you are but I agree with Hawk even if unclear in rules.
The "move and end your turn" or "move then end your turn" prohibits you to do any additional act (playing card, using an optional power...) after moving.
Note that if ruled otherwise, it would in fact recreate the MTG stacking that not-this-Mike tries to avoid:
- I evade
-- I move
--- I decide to examine
---- Wow a monster hench, I decide to encounter
----- Wow I defeat it so I decide to close
------ Wow due to closing condition now I can immediately move
------- But then, the process forks...
and I never get to end my turn?