Ghosting is to just vanish without a trace.
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"ghosting in a game you don't like" - what does that mean?
Ghosting means dropping out without saying anything. You just disappear.
I've had a similar experience in offline games as well. One player just wasn't up for the time commitment an AP requires. We weren't mad at him not showing, we were upset that he didn't communicate with us so we could recruit a new player.
I see. I thought from this it was to cheat in a game you don't like. Thanks for clearing up my misconception.
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Lots of interesting advice/discussion here.
I'm finding subsystems are really a killer in a lot of games, and I definitely pick my games to avoid those now. I've had to throw out all the kingdom-building stuff (and likely mass combat) in my Kingmaker game, and my Skull & Shackles game also fell apart despite being a great group (it was the second campaign I was running with that group and while not the only factor in its demise, I think the subsystem aspects definitely were a large part of it).
I would definitely look for games that don't use a lot of subsystems.
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As others have said, being upfront about expectations is really important. Making sure someone's willing to track loot can take some effort off the GM (who's handling so much already). Also, I'm always very explicit that I won't be angry if you have to drop out of a game -- but I *will* be angry if you just disappear (as player or GM). That's so frustrating. As a GM, I try to be very upfront about when I think I won't be able to post (I skip a day from time to time if I'm busy, but longer than that deserves some notice).
I have noticed a few items that seem to cause the death of PbP campaigns.
1- As others have said, mismatch of expectations. As an example: One GM evidently got upset that we weren't 'role playing.' We were confused. We described our actions and reasons for them. Had fairly long detailed interactions with some interesting NPC's. Had long term plans and worked on ways to accomplish them. Etc... Apparently his definition of 'role playing' requires long internal monologues, unrequited passion, love/hate relationships with betweenthe PC's, etc... He pointed out examples of what he wanted/expected to see from other PbP's. From my point of view the main thing he wanted were the worst and silliest parts of the Lord of the Rings trilogy. If I had known that from the start, I would never have even applied for the game and maybe he would have found some players looking for the same type of game he wanted to run.
2- GM'ing a PbP is a tough job. I don't think a lot of GM's realize how tough it will be. There is a lot involved. If you aren't very organized and a very clear communicator, it just makes it that much worse. There were several times where a poorly worded description, typo, or omitted piece of data left us completely perplexed or trying to do the wrong thing. And with the slow nature of PbP it can sometimes take a week or more to even figure out what the problem is. Then everyone is frustrated and out of character.
3- It can even be tough for a player. If the pace slows down, I've had a rough day at work, or even just been concentrating on something else; I can find myself just unable to get in character or forgetting what was going on in the plot. Then I have to read back through the last several pages to get myself into the right head space.
4- All the AP's and even most of the homebrew start at 1st level. Some players just can't stand constantly being a 1st level character for the next 3 months. Then the game dies and they start a new at 1st level for 3 more months. ...
5- No end in sight. It is harder to get excited about something where the major mile markers are years rather than days away. Anticipation is really a large part of the joy of gaming. It is hard to keep anticipation up for that long.
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Sorry, that ended up being more of a wall of text than I expected.
Yet those are also (I believe) the reasons PFS PbP seem to be so much more successful.
-Most people seem to know what to expect in PFS games.
-If there is a mismatch among the players/GM, it is ok since it will over shortly and beginning again with a (probably) completely different group.
-There are scenarios of all different levels.
-The end is in a few weeks rather than several years, so it is easier to remain committed and excited.
If you are applying to a non PFS game the key is to vet the DM. I've been burned recently by not following my own advice! Don't submit to a PbP where the DM has little to no experience on the boards running a game. Tough advice as the amount of Recruitments available do not come close to equaling demand for them. This advice could keep you out of what may turn out to be stellar game but will save a lot of personal time wasted on Recruitments that go nowhere.
I have noticed a few items that seem to cause the death of PbP campaigns.
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3- It can even be tough for a player. If the pace slows down, I've had a rough day at work, or even just been concentrating on something else; I can find myself just unable to get in character or forgetting what was going on in the plot. Then I have to read back through the last several pages to get myself into the right head space.
<...>
That's something that can come with overcommitting as a player, as well. If you're playing in a bunch of campaigns and each of the GMs would prefer at least one post/day, that can be a significant time commitment in itself. It takes time to switch mindset from one character to another, and if you've had a bad day at work or are otherwise distracted, you may not have that time. I get that there are a lot of great-sounding and fun campaigns out there recruiting, but it's OK as a player to let most of them go.
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If you are applying to a non PFS game the key is to vet the DM. I've been burned recently by not following my own advice! Don't submit to a PbP where the DM has little to no experience on the boards running a game. Tough advice as the amount of Recruitments available do not come close to equaling demand for them. This advice could keep you out of what may turn out to be stellar game but will save a lot of personal time wasted on Recruitments that go nowhere.
I think there's something to be said for a group of dedicated players recruiting for a GM. Although I've never done it, I wonder how much traction it would get on the recruitment threads.
If you are applying to a non PFS game the key is to vet the DM. I've been burned recently by not following my own advice! Don't submit to a PbP where the DM has little to no experience on the boards running a game. Tough advice as the amount of Recruitments available do not come close to equaling demand for them. This advice could keep you out of what may turn out to be stellar game but will save a lot of personal time wasted on Recruitments that go nowhere.I think there's something to be said for a group of dedicated players recruiting for a GM. Although I've never done it, I wonder how much traction it would get on the recruitment threads.
I don't think I've ever seen a group of players put out a competitive request for a GM. I've seen groups of players looking for a GM, but there are few enough GMs out there who can deal with ceding control of the player selection process that the player groups generally go with the first interested party.
I managed to step in and GM for a dedicated group that was looking for someone to give their regular GM a break. Turned out fairly well.
I've stepped in for 3 (or maybe 4) groups as a DM. All the games are still going though some of the original players have left for various RL reasons.
I fact I just gave a group looking for advice how to craft a DM Recruitment thread and they had a DM within the next two days. If you do it right, it can work.
I don't think I've ever seen a group of players put out a competitive request for a GM. I've seen groups of players looking for a GM, but there are few enough GMs out there who can deal with ceding control of the player selection process that the player groups generally go with the first interested party.If you are applying to a non PFS game the key is to vet the DM. I've been burned recently by not following my own advice! Don't submit to a PbP where the DM has little to no experience on the boards running a game. Tough advice as the amount of Recruitments available do not come close to equaling demand for them. This advice could keep you out of what may turn out to be stellar game but will save a lot of personal time wasted on Recruitments that go nowhere.I think there's something to be said for a group of dedicated players recruiting for a GM. Although I've never done it, I wonder how much traction it would get on the recruitment threads.
I saw this once. The group had three or four GM's interestingly enough and they selected the one they wanted.
I've also Recruited for DM's for AP's (or other games) I wanted to play in. One worked out and one not so much.
I think there's something to be said for a group of dedicated players recruiting for a GM. Although I've never done it, I wonder how much traction it would get on the recruitment threads.
I have taken over two PbP on these boards. Both RotRL. I also volunteered to take over a third one, however another DM also volunteered so I removed my name from consideration.
-- david
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Yeah, I think DMs kill games more than players. If a DM posts regularly, and reaches out to slow posting players, they can keep the momentum - but it's a lot of work. And you have to be willing to cut players who slow things down overmuch. Remember, you answer to all the players, not just one.
But it's a long marathon. My first DMed game took a little over 2 years and the next is about to end at almost exactly 2 years. That's a long time to keep up with a daily routine and pressure to move forward.
If anyone wants it, I have a Treasure Sheet (link) that I've borrowed from others and improved. It's very clean and simple and I'm happy to share it out to anyone who wants it so you can see how it's built, copy it, whatever. Just PM me.
Lets see...
Start date: Nov 6, 2016, 09:11 am
I've been flogging my players hard with whips and all, and it's now 14 July 2017. Can we finish ROW in less then a year? =)
I was aiming for 1 month per book, but at higher levels combat slows down...
Oh my goodness that's incredible progress. Hats off, that takes dedication from all involved.
I was aiming for 1 month per book, but at higher levels, combat slows down...
Wow.
My Runelords campaign started in July 2014. We're still in Book 1.
I've been running the boss battle of Burnt Offerings since mid-July. We're in Round 12.
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Reign of Winter complete in less then a year.
Many thanks to my players for keeping up the insane pace I set.
Reign of Winter complete in less then a year.
Many thanks to my players for keeping up the insane pace I set.
Amazing! It would be hard to do that on table top much less PbP! ;-)
Hi Storyteller Shadow. We are fellow hydraheads =)
*Bumps head*
I guess adjectives commonly used to describe me are stubborn and persistent.
Hi Storyteller Shadow. We are fellow hydraheads =)
*Bumps head*
I guess adjectives commonly used to describe me are stubborn and persistent.
Ah yes, so we are :-0
Really enjoying that one so far!
Congrats, Mort!
(This is Beachhead.)
Reign of Winter complete in less then a year.
Many thanks to my players for keeping up the insane pace I set.
Wow, that's impressive. Remind me to keep an eye out for your recruitments. I love a fast pace, but it's so hard to maintain as a GM. It's all I can do to not let the game I'm GMing die. As a player I don't have as much trouble.
Try this for really crazy cross posting lol...but I admit keeping THAT pace is tiring for me too.
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I've run a number of PbP on here, and been in quite a few as well. Took a hiatus from it for two years before I just recently started one for Starfinder.
The games I DMd lasted for about a year each. After that point real life commitments got in my way and so I had to bow out as DM. The option is always there for someone else to,take it over, but that rarely happens and so the game just folds. Every time I've had to give it away, I have given solid notice though.
Issues I've had to deal with as a DM that make it hard to keep the motivation going.
- people dropping out without notice. Lack of communication is the worst for killing a game.
- people committing to a game based on posting expectations and campaign outline, only to change the moment they're accepted. Suddenly saying you're unable to post weekends or asking why you can't play a drow having just been accepted in a game is really poor form.
- player disagreements. I've seen arguments over gear, I've seen arguments over character actions and alignment, I've seen arguments over the reading of spoilers when you shouldn't be doing so. I already have to deal with poor behaviour and manage disagreements as a teacher. I'm not interested in doing that in my gaming, especially for folks I don't know.
- cheating. Before Paizo implemented their dice function on these boards, we had to use other sites and post links. So many players just cheated, and got bent out of shape when called on it. Now the cheating comes from pre reading the games or acting on knowledge your characters just wouldn't have. Again leading to uncomfortable confrontations when a player is called on it.
What I've learned from these is
1) be clear on expectations leading in to a game. Include a time line for when you will just cut a player from a game and recruit anew. Don't be afraid to cut a player if they are causing delays without notice or very regularly.
2) outline some quick rules before the game on how looting is going to work. If more than one person wants an item, I will do a roll off as DM, using the dice roller here. Usually we have the caveat that if a player recently acquired useful gear and the other player hasn't, then the gear goes to the guy who's waited the longest for gear.
3) disagreements about character actions between players needs to be done via PM. It is not the job of the DM or other payers to sort your issues with each other. A GM can wade in if he/she desires, but it is not an expectation of the role.
4) if one player is causing grief for every other player, don't be afraid to cut them, and re recruit. Make sure this is done after some discussion with the problem player first to try and resolve what's happening, preferably in PM so it doesn't drag uninterested parties into the issue.
5) don't commit to more than you know you'll achieve. I was running three games at one point, plus a face to face game. That was way more than I could realistically manage over the long hall. For my latest game I've committed to the first part of the adventure AP and that's it. If things are still travelling well at that point, we'll extend it. If not, I made the expectation clear at recruit,ent.
Ultimately PbP is about continuing communication between everyone involved. If that stops for whatever reason, the game dies.
As a GM, the biggest killer of games I've tried to start or run has been player commitment. Many many many times over, I've tried to start games and the people who told me they want to play just don't even get to rolling scores. And then with recruiting, I pick characters based off backgrounds because I'm a very story driven GM. But then players just drop off like they never existed, and not just in my game, but on the boards period. As a player, it's the same thing. I don't mind a GM who doesn't post 10 times a day. Personally I feel that a GM shouldn't have to post that often. The GM should be prepared to if the players consistently post on an active basis though. But because of this, I've seen players leave because the GM didn't post for two days or didn't get back to their question in less than 2 hours. And then I've seen players just straight drop from the face of the planet.
All in all, just as much as a GM can kill a game on their own actions, I've seen many more games die because of the players.
On a side note, I'm in Haladir's game, and am probably the character he mentioned that had to resign. Luckily the group took me back, and it's still a great game. But in my case, it's also a good example as well. I have a lot of stress that goes on in my life because life seems to hate me for stupid reasons. So sometimes I day a good couple of days to a week to try and sort things out. Which also ends up cutting into my posting rate. But I do my best to communicate with the group to let them know what's going on. How Haladir and the group has allowed me to stay with the group despite my huge frustrations with the forum coding right now and trying to get back into my character is beyond me lol. So in the end, I think a key to trying to keep a game going is understanding in a group with communication. In the 3 years his game originally started with the orginal GM, I've suffered a broken engagement, a few job losses, a couple of long distance moves, and some seriously heavy medical diagnosis'. And I know a couple of the other players have had to take some time because of personal reasons. But we've constantly communicated, and continue to find ways and discuss how to keep things going and not stagnant once situations crop up.
Try this for really crazy cross posting lol...but I admit keeping THAT pace is tiring for me too.
There was a Skull and Shackles game that went by in under a year with awesome communication that involved forum,facebook and email communication.