I have said several time that you do not hit by any number you are hitting by a rule.
Bull Rush-
If your attack is successful, your target is pushed back 5 feet. For every 5 by which your attack exceeds your opponent's CMD you can push the target back an additional 5 feet.Lets check the first sentence: Are we successful.
"A natural 20 (the d20 comes up 20) is always a hit" = yes
Effect pushed back 5 feet.Second Sentence: For every 5 by which your attack exceeds your
opponent's CMD you can push the target back an additional 5
feet.The general rule for attacks says "When you make an attack
roll, you roll a d20 and add your attack bonus. (Other
modifiers may also apply to this roll.) If your result equals
or beats the target's Armor Class, you hit and deal damage."
The specific rule for Natural 20s says "A natural 20 (the d20
comes up 20) is always a hit.". Notice you do not add attack
bonuses to a natural 20 or compare it to the opponents AC.Since we do not compare a natural 20 to the opponents CMD we can not exceed it.
Result: Pushed back 5 feet.
In this case the result of 20 can be worse than a result of 19. Is that how you intend this interpretation to behave?
I have said several time that you do not hit by any number you are hitting by a rule.
Bull Rush-
If your attack is successful, your target is pushed back 5 feet. For every 5 by which your attack exceeds your opponent's CMD you can push the target back an additional 5 feet.Lets check the first sentence: Are we successful.
"A natural 20 (the d20 comes up 20) is always a hit" = yes
Effect pushed back 5 feet.Second Sentence: For every 5 by which your attack exceeds your
opponent's CMD you can push the target back an additional 5
feet.The general rule for attacks says "When you make an attack
roll, you roll a d20 and add your attack bonus. (Other
modifiers may also apply to this roll.) If your result equals
or beats the target's Armor Class, you hit and deal damage."
The specific rule for Natural 20s says "A natural 20 (the d20
comes up 20) is always a hit.". Notice you do not add attack
bonuses to a natural 20 or compare it to the opponents AC.Since we do not compare a natural 20 to the opponents CMD we can not exceed it.
Result: Pushed back 5 feet.
You don't still compare your total to the CMB to determine the outcome irrespective of the natural 20?
So your 20th character with +80 CMB bull rushes the puny 1st level wizard with a CMD of -1 rolls a natural 20 and only pushes him back 5'...Colour me gobsmacked...
I have said several time that you do not hit by any number you are hitting by a rule.
Bull Rush-
If your attack is successful, your target is pushed back 5 feet. For every 5 by which your attack exceeds your opponent's CMD you can push the target back an additional 5 feet.Lets check the first sentence: Are we successful.
"A natural 20 (the d20 comes up 20) is always a hit" = yes
Effect pushed back 5 feet.Second Sentence: For every 5 by which your attack exceeds your
opponent's CMD you can push the target back an additional 5
feet.The general rule for attacks says "When you make an attack
roll, you roll a d20 and add your attack bonus. (Other
modifiers may also apply to this roll.) If your result equals
or beats the target's Armor Class, you hit and deal damage."
The specific rule for Natural 20s says "A natural 20 (the d20
comes up 20) is always a hit.". Notice you do not add attack
bonuses to a natural 20 or compare it to the opponents AC.Since we do not compare a natural 20 to the opponents CMD we can not exceed it.
Result: Pushed back 5 feet.
So by this logic, if I'm attacking with a sword, and roll a nat 20, I hit, but I don't roll for any damage, since the rules regarding nat 20 always being a hit don't tell me to also roll for damage?
Just because I rolled a nat 20 (or 1), does not mean I don't evaluate any other rules that are in play. e.g, even with a nat 20 I still roll for concealment miss chance, mirror images, etc. And with bull rush add my CMB to my roll to determine distance pushed back.
In no case should rolling a nat 20 result in a lesser effect than rolling a nat 19. E.g, if my CMB is +20, and the creatures CMD is 19, and I roll a nat 20 I push it back 5', but if I roll a 19, now I push it back 20'?
Now if the creatures CMD is over 9000, and we take the above rolls, a nat 20 still pushes it back 5', but a nat 19 now does nothing.
Any other fashion of working with a nat 20 is a fabrication from outside of the defined rules.
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That is how examining the rules makes it appear to me. People said a long time ago in the first threat that this seems like a great thing for a GM to address as both stances lead to some odd results. The best playing solution is probably to have an inconsistent interpretation of the rules that make the result the most fun for the players.
Any ruling to the contrary has absolutely no basis in the rules at allGeneral rule for attacks "When you make an attack
roll, you roll a d20 and add your attack bonus. (Other
modifiers may also apply to this roll.) If your result equals or beats the target's Armor Class, you hit and deal damage."Specific rule for Natural 1s "A natural 1 (the d20 comes up 1) on an attack roll is always a miss"
There is no mention of adding any bonuses to the natural 1 or comparing it to the AC.
The specific rule only changes the aspect that it becomes a hit (or miss), but does not change any other aspects.
For example, the gang up feat has a specific rule that changes the positioning required to flank. It makes no mention of melee attacks only, or granting a +2 to hit. That doesn't mean the specific rule means those are no longer part of the equation, it simply means those aspects are not affected by the gang up feat.
Likewise, the specific rule of 20 auto-hit, or 1 auto-miss means we don't need to compare to AC to determine if we get to roll damage, but factors that are based on the actual final number of the attack roll still use that information.
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On a nat 1 or 20, you have a result, but you just don't look at it unless you are told to.
In the case of "miss by," you aren't told to compare, you are asked if a comparison was made and what the result of that comparison was. If you didn't compare result to defense, you can't "miss by."
In the case of "exceeded CMD by 5," you are told to compare the result of the roll to the defense, even though it automatically hit.
On a nat 1 or 20, you have a result, but you just don't look at it unless you are told to.
In the case of "miss by," you aren't told to compare, you are asked if a comparison was made and what the result of that comparison was. If you didn't compare result to defense, you can't "miss by."
In the case of "exceeded CMD by 5," you are told to compare the result of the roll to the defense, even though it automatically hit.
Does this mean you do or don't agree with Samish about a nat 20 being worse than a nat 19 sometimes?
On a nat 1 or 20, you have a result, but you just don't look at it unless you are told to.
In the case of "miss by," you aren't told to compare, you are asked if a comparison was made and what the result of that comparison was. If you didn't compare result to defense, you can't "miss by."
In the case of "exceeded CMD by 5," you are told to compare the result of the roll to the defense, even though it automatically hit.
A comparison is automatically implied by the words "miss by", we don't need to be told to make the comparison. e.g, if I roll a nat 2, how do I know if I missed by 5 or less? By making a comparison of course. How do I know to make a comparison? It's required to make that comparison in order to determine if I missed by 5 or less.
A nat 1 is no different. If I roll a nat 1 did I miss? Yes. How much did I miss by? Well, let me compare the final numbers. Even if the actual comparison says I should have hit, the specific rule of 1 always misses makes it a miss, but how much did I miss is a comparison of the numbers.
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The specific rule only changes the aspect that it becomes a hit (or miss), but does not change any other aspects.
So you contend that the specific rule "A natural 20 (the d20
comes up 20) is always a hit." only replaces the second (third) sentence of the attack general rule of "When you make an attackroll, you roll a d20 and add your attack bonus. (Other
modifiers may also apply to this roll.) If your result equals
or beats the target's Armor Class, you hit and deal damage."?
That would make the rule look like the following for Nat 1s.
"When you make an attack roll, you roll a d20 and add your attack bonus. (Other modifiers may also apply to this roll.) A natural 1 (the d20 comes up 1) on an attack roll is always a miss."
Now lets look at the what mirror image asks. "If the attack misses by 5 or less, one of your figments is destroyed by the near miss."
Now I have an attack roll total (lets say 19), I have a result (miss), and I have a condition misses by 5 for less. I don't have a number to miss by 5 or less though so it is not defined.
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On a nat 1 or 20, you have a result, but you just don't look at it unless you are told to.
In the case of "miss by," you aren't told to compare, you are asked if a comparison was made and what the result of that comparison was. If you didn't compare result to defense, you can't "miss by."
In the case of "exceeded CMD by 5," you are told to compare the result of the roll to the defense, even though it automatically hit.
A comparison is automatically implied by the words "miss by", we don't need to be told to make the comparison. e.g, if I roll a nat 2, how do I know if I missed by 5 or less? By making a comparison of course. How do I know to make a comparison? It's required to make that comparison in order to determine if I missed by 5 or less.
A nat 1 is no different. If I roll a nat 1 did I miss? Yes. How much did I miss by? Well, let me compare the final numbers. Even if the actual comparison says I should have hit, the specific rule of 1 always misses makes it a miss, but how much did I miss is a comparison of the numbers.
I see a distinction between "miss by" and "if your attack roll fell short of AC by less than"
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It looks like King is saying that they are both specific cases and one calls out for a comparison and the other does not. So bull rush could benefit from extra distance that comparing your roll to CMD generates because it asks you too, but mirror image does not ask you to compare the attack roll vs AC so it does not so you can not miss by 5 or less.
I don't have a number to miss by 5 or less though so it is not defined.
But you very clearly do have a number. That there's a special rule about automatic success/failure doesn't change the fact that there's a value that you've rolled.
There is no mention of adding any bonuses to the natural 1 or comparing it to the AC.
Yes there is. YOU quoted it. "roll a d20 and add your attack bonus". Where does it say that 1 or 20 on the d20 rolls excluded it from the "add your attack bonus" part? How does auto hit/miss contradict "add your attack bonus"? And if it doesn't, then the specific doesn't override the general.
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Now if you say you compare the number rolled to the target's AC you get back to the start of the argument which is how do you determine if you miss by 5 or less. Do you subtract your roll from the targets AC and look for a number less than 5, or do you add 5 to your roll and see if you now generate a hit.
The specific rule only changes the aspect that it becomes a hit (or miss), but does not change any other aspects.So you contend that the specific rule "A natural 20 (the d20
comes up 20) is always a hit." only replaces the second (third) sentence of the attack general rule of "When you make an attack
roll, you roll a d20 and add your attack bonus. (Other
modifiers may also apply to this roll.) If your result equals
or beats the target's Armor Class, you hit and deal damage."?That would make the rule look like the following for Nat 1s.
"When you make an attack roll, you roll a d20 and add your attack bonus. (Other modifiers may also apply to this roll.) A natural 1 (the d20 comes up 1) on an attack roll is always a miss."
Now lets look at the what mirror image asks. "If the attack misses by 5 or less, one of your figments is destroyed by the near miss."
Now I have an attack roll total (lets say 19), I have a result (miss), and I have a condition misses by 5 for less. I don't have a number to miss by 5 or less though so it is not defined.
I'm not sure which sentence you are calling as the third one. But let me respond in this way. It doesn't replace any sentences. Combined the rules become:
"If your result equals or beats the target's Armor Class (or you roll a natural 20), you hit and deal damage."
Conversely:
"If your result is less than the target's Armor Class (or you roll a natueral 1), you miss."
Everything else in that whole block of rules still applies, because the specific rules on auto-hit/miss don't tell us to do anything differently.
A nat 1 plus whatever you attack bonuses are minus the target's AC still gives you a number you missed by, even if that means you missed by -50.
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If you roll a natural 1, the condition logic is short-circuited and the difference isn't stored in the register.
What part of the rules tell us to do that for nat 1's but not nat 20's?
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If you roll a natural 1, the condition logic is short-circuited and the difference isn't stored in the register.
Except it's pretty easy to look down at your dice and do some basic addition and come up with a number.
If you roll a natural 1, the condition logic is short-circuited and the difference isn't stored in the register.What part of the rules tell us to do that for nat 1's but not nat 20's?
What part of the rules tells us to do it at all?
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King never claimed you do it for one and not the other. He claimed the specific ability Bull Rush asks you to compare the original roll to CMD and that the specific effect Mirror Image does not mention AC or CMD anywhere. That is why he is treating what happens to Bull Rush and Mirror Image differently on a nat 1 or 20.
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So then I don't get knocked prone or drop my weapons if I roll a one for Trip or Disarm even if I would on a 2? Since its if your attack fails by and not compare to CMD?
King never claimed you do it for one and not the other. He claimed the specific ability Bull Rush asks you to compare the original roll to CMD and that the specific effect Mirror Image does not mention AC or CMD anywhere. That is why he is treating what happens to Bull Rush and Mirror Image differently on a nat 1 or 20.
So can you explain to me then, if I roll a nat 15, how do I know if I pop a mirror image or not?
The part that specifically says to compare to CMD, rather than if you "hit by more than."If you roll a natural 1, the condition logic is short-circuited and the difference isn't stored in the register.What part of the rules tell us to do that for nat 1's but not nat 20's?
Aside from the pedantic nature of your argument, here are the actual rules for bull rush.
You can make a bull rush as a standard action or as part of a charge, in place of the melee attack. You can only bull rush an opponent who is no more than one size category larger than you. A bull rush attempts to push an opponent straight back without doing any harm. If you do not have the Improved Bull Rush feat, or a similar ability, initiating a bull rush provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver.If your attack is successful, your target is pushed back 5 feet. For every 5 by which your attack exceeds your opponent's CMD you can push the target back an additional 5 feet. You can move with the target if you wish but you must have the available movement to do so. If your attack fails, your movement ends in front of the target.
An enemy being moved by a bull rush does not provoke an attack of opportunity because of the movement unless you possess the Greater Bull Rush feat. You cannot bull rush a creature into a square that is occupied by a solid object or obstacle. If there is another creature in the way of your bull rush, you must immediately make a combat maneuver check to bull rush that creature. You take a –4 penalty on this check for each creature being pushed beyond the first. If you are successful, you can continue to push the creatures a distance equal to the lesser result. For example, if a fighter bull rushes a goblin for a total of 15 feet, but there is another goblin 5 feet behind the first, he must make another combat maneuver check against the second goblin after having pushed the first 5 feet. If his check reveals that he can push the second goblin a total of 20 feet, he can continue to push both goblins another 10 feet (since the first goblin will have moved a total of 15 feet).
The word compare does not appear in the entire text.
And here is a link to the combat chapter. The word "compare" does not appear in the entire chapter.
So your entire premise, besides being overly pedantic, is also entirely founded upon wording that is not actually in the rules.
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You can make a bull rush as a standard action or as part of a charge, in place of the melee attack. You can only bull rush an opponent who is no more than one size category larger than you. A bull rush attempts to push an opponent straight back without doing any harm. If you do not have the Improved Bull Rush feat, or a similar ability, initiating a bull rush provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver.
If your attack is successful, your target is pushed back 5 feet. For every 5 by which your attack exceeds your opponent's CMD you can push the target back an additional 5 feet. You can move with the target if you wish but you must have the available movement to do so. If your attack fails, your movement ends in front of the target.
An enemy being moved by a bull rush does not provoke an attack of opportunity because of the movement unless you possess the Greater Bull Rush feat. You cannot bull rush a creature into a square that is occupied by a solid object or obstacle. If there is another creature in the way of your bull rush, you must immediately make a combat maneuver check to bull rush that creature. You take a –4 penalty on this check for each creature being pushed beyond the first. If you are successful, you can continue to push the creatures a distance equal to the lesser result. For example, if a fighter bull rushes a goblin for a total of 15 feet, but there is another goblin 5 feet behind the first, he must make another combat maneuver check against the second goblin after having pushed
It says right there. The phrase "exceeds your opponent's CMD" tells you explicitly to take your numbers and look at them together.
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King never claimed you do it for one and not the other. He claimed the specific ability Bull Rush asks you to compare the original roll to CMD and that the specific effect Mirror Image does not mention AC or CMD anywhere. That is why he is treating what happens to Bull Rush and Mirror Image differently on a nat 1 or 20.So can you explain to me then, if I roll a nat 15, how do I know if I pop a mirror image or not?
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How do you know if you hit or not?
If you had to add up your number and compare to AC to know, then you might have missed by a value. If you only had to look at the die, you didn't miss by any value.
Well, I can certainly see why the CRB authors chose to leave all this implicit in the simple "natural 20 always hits, natural 1 always misses" rule. If they'd spelled it all out explicitly, readers' heads would have exploded, and that's bad for business.
It says right there. The phrase "exceeds your opponent's CMD" tells you explicitly to take your numbers and look at them together.You can make a bull rush as a standard action or as part of a charge, in place of the melee attack. You can only bull rush an opponent who is no more than one size category larger than you. A bull rush attempts to push an opponent straight back without doing any harm. If you do not have the Improved Bull Rush feat, or a similar ability, initiating a bull rush provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver.
If your attack is successful, your target is pushed back 5 feet. For every 5 by which your attack exceeds your opponent's CMD you can push the target back an additional 5 feet. You can move with the target if you wish but you must have the available movement to do so. If your attack fails, your movement ends in front of the target.
An enemy being moved by a bull rush does not provoke an attack of opportunity because of the movement unless you possess the Greater Bull Rush feat. You cannot bull rush a creature into a square that is occupied by a solid object or obstacle. If there is another creature in the way of your bull rush, you must immediately make a combat maneuver check to bull rush that creature. You take a –4 penalty on this check for each creature being pushed beyond the first. If you are successful, you can continue to push the creatures a distance equal to the lesser result. For example, if a fighter bull rushes a goblin for a total of 15 feet, but there is another goblin 5 feet behind the first, he must make another combat maneuver check against the second goblin after having pushed
Mirror Image does the exact same thing: "If the attack misses by 5 or less, one of your figments is destroyed by the near miss."
It says right there. The phrase "exceeds your opponent's CMD" tells you explicitly to take your numbers and look at them together.
That doesn't say to compare them. That only tells you if you exceed by x. Which is just the opposite spectrum of if you miss by x. In order to determine either side of that equation you need to compare the numbers.
And that's what it looks like on both ends for disarm.
If your attack is successful, your target drops one item it is carrying of your choice (even if the item is wielded with two hands). If your attack exceeds the CMD of the target by 10 or more, the target drops the items it is carrying in both hands (maximum two items if the target has more than two hands). If your attack fails by 10 or more, you drop the weapon that you were using to attempt the disarm.
So what happens with a nat 1 or nat 20 on a disarm attempt?
Ah but you are not asked to compare it vs AC.
Why does it matter, the first line STILL told you to add it and NOTHING in the third tells you not to. Nothing in automatic hit/miss says to ignore the basics.
So the question on mirror image becomes does a 19 miss by five or less?
I don't get the quandary. Even if the automatic nature of natural 1 and 20 negates the need to compare total hit numbers for success/failure, nothing in that rule stops the initial rule of adding bonuses/taking penalties to the roll or other rules from looking at that total to determine something other than just hitting or missing.
There is not enough information to answer that.
There is but you're not seeing it.
See nothing says 'if you roll a 1 or 20, DON'T add bonuses or take penalties'. It DOES say the first thing you do IS roll dice and add modifiers. General rule not overridden by specific. Ergo, all hit rolls add modifiers. Just because most people skip that step, as it's unneeded unless degree of success/failure, doesn't mean it isn't there.
The natural 1 or 20 rule doesn't require checking the target number to figure out success/failure. Nothing is said about not checking the total for degree of success or failure. General rule not overridden by specific. Ergo, normal method is used to figure it out.
So if you JUST follow the existing rules and don't add in restrictions that don't exist, you have your answer.
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The rules do not tell you how to determine a near miss. I believe we all agree that a natural 1 does not hit and that you can not add any number to a natural 1 and get a hit. We disagree on the math for determining a near miss.
I believe that since you can not add any number to a natural one and get a hit you can not miss by 5 or less, as no amount of immediate reaction bonus to hit or forgotten bonuses like bard song can turn your miss into a hit.
You believe that you can subtract the attack roll from the AC and determine a number you missed by despite the fact that if you added that number to your attack roll you would not have hit.
The challenge you have is showing where in the rules it lets you add numbers to an attack roll of natural 1 and get a hit.
Rules that explain what constitutes a near miss (in mirror image spell).
If the attack misses by 5 or less, one of your figments is destroyed by the near miss.
Just because I could add 50 to the roll, and still result in a miss, does not mean it is not a near miss.
Is the AC - (the final result of the die + bonuses) <= 5? Did we get a nat 1 and auto miss no matter what the roll? If yes to both, it was a near miss, no matter what that final result was.
You've yet to show a rule that contradicts this. Your turn though since I've shown the rule that defines what a near miss is (for purposes of mirror image), and the rules on how to calculate that.
King never claimed you do it for one and not the other. He claimed the specific ability Bull Rush asks you to compare the original roll to CMD and that the specific effect Mirror Image does not mention AC or CMD anywhere. That is why he is treating what happens to Bull Rush and Mirror Image differently on a nat 1 or 20.So can you explain to me then, if I roll a nat 15, how do I know if I pop a mirror image or not?\
How do you know if you hit or not?
If you had to add up your number and compare to AC to know, then you might have missed by a value. If you only had to look at the die, you didn't miss by any value.
So if I roll a nat 20 on a bull rush or disarm attempt, I don't need to add any numbers, I just know I succeeded, right? How much did I succeed by? No idea, according to this logic I don't get to check. So I can't push a person more than 5' on a nat 20, or disarm them of more than 1 item on a nat 20.
Likewise if I roll a nat 2 on a disarm, and fail by 10, I'm disarmed, but if I roll a nat 1, nothing happens to me since I didn't miss by any specific amount.
If the rules lead you to say that rolling a nat 19 can be better than rolling a nat 20, or that rolling a nat 2 could be worse than rolling a nat 1, there is a very high chance you are reading the rules wrong.
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The rules do not tell you how to determine a near miss.
Yes it does. Check the rules that care about near misses. For instance mirror image counts a near miss as an attack that misses by 5 or less.
I believe we all agree that a natural 1 does not hit and that you can not add any number to a natural 1 and get a hit.
Good so far.
We disagree on the math for determining a near miss.
I don't see why.
I believe that since you can not add any number to a natural one
This is incorrect, full stop: NOTHING in natural 1 or 20 rule says you don't complete the normal roll + modifiers part of the rules, so you do them.
The challenge you have is showing where in the rules it lets you add numbers to an attack roll of natural 1 and get a hit.
Ok, I'll do it again. "roll a d20 and add your attack bonus". PLEASE show me where the rules for natural one that say NOT to do this rule. NOTHING is making the attack automatic stops it from having the modifiers added; It just doesn't matter most times.
If you feel this is wrong, please show me the exception that gives you a more specific rule for adding bonuses to attack rolls. Where does it say or infer that you shouldn't follow the normal rules for adding modifiers.
I tried to flag Samish, but there is no 'this is a troll' in the drop down.
When someone closes their eyes, refuses to listen to what you say, screams 'nuh uh nuh uh nuh uh', and smashes their head into the book over and over again, you don't engage them in further conversation. You throw them out of the shop.
*Make an attack roll: 1d20+Modifier
*Check AC: If your attack roll meets or exceeds the AC of the target, you hit. If it fails to meet the AC of the target, you miss.
*A natural 1 always misses. A natural 20 always hits, and threatens a critical hit.
Sometimes you miss an AC24 by rolling 28. Sometimes you hit by -7. These circumstances do not in ANY WAY change the rules as written. It just means that sometimes the commoner can shove the horse, and sometimes your swing misses the barn door. It happens.
Do not invent intervening steps. Do not apply new math. Do not feed the trolls. Do not attempt to match their insane troll logic.
At no point, ever, does anything say 'start adding modifiers and see where you hit'. You are following an inane and frankly insane way of looking at a basic mathematical process. If I have a +22 modifier to hit, and I roll a 1, I get a 23. Then we look at your AC. Did I hit? Did I miss? That total is the only number that EVER matters. If your AC is 24 I missed by 1, not INFINITY.
Sometimes 28 misses AC24. Sometimes you hit by -7. That is all.
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Also, I iirc gods always start with a roll of 20, and then roll to confirm. Their skills are always the ideal, their attacks are always amazing. The mice aren't safe.
Also, rolling a 1 on a skill can, and often does, still succeed. There is no modification to the roll, and the natural 1 and natural 20 rule only applies to attack rolls.
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Edited for quote.
Ok, I'll do it again. "roll a d20 and add your attack bonus". PLEASE show me where the rules for natural one that say NOT to do this rule. NOTHING is making the attack automatic stops it from having the modifiers added; It just doesn't matter most times.
Now "roll a d20 and add your attack bonus"+5 did you hit? If yes you have a near miss, if no you do not. That is the part where we disagree and that we have not found any clear way of convincing the other.
Now "roll a d20 and add your attack bonus"+5 did you hit? If yes you have a near miss, if no you do not. That is the part where we disagree and that we have not found any clear way of convincing the other.
I don't understand your post. Who are you replying to? Normally the answer to "did you hit?" isn't "If yes you have a near miss".
I have said you missed because of a rule and not because of a number.
Yes, but it never says that you don't add your modifiers to that number and instead tells you that you do two sentences before.
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I believe we are not going to agree on what the rules say here. I think if you look at my post near the top of the page you will see I endorse playing in a way that does not strictly follow the rules in this instance to increase the fun for the players. If that means leaving images on a PC mage that is near death or destroying images that is on an NPC wizard that is killing them I am fine being inconsistent with the interpretation. I am not sure if there is anything left to discuss.
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I believe we are not going to agree on what the rules say here. I think if you look at my post near the top of the page you will see I endorse playing in a way that does not strictly follow the rules in this instance to increase the fun for the players. If that means leaving images on a PC mage that is near death or destroying images that is on an NPC wizard that is killing them I am fine being inconsistent with the interpretation. I am not sure if there is anything left to discuss.
Your wrong and this is the rules forum where we ask and answer rules questions. Fudging things doesn't have a place here.
I believe we are not going to agree on what the rules say here. I think if you look at my post near the top of the page you will see I endorse playing in a way that does not strictly follow the rules in this instance to increase the fun for the players. If that means leaving images on a PC mage that is near death or destroying images that is on an NPC wizard that is killing them I am fine being inconsistent with the interpretation. I am not sure if there is anything left to discuss.
Then take your discussion to the house rules forum, not the rules forum. You don't have to like how a rule works, and are free to house rule it, but this forum is for understanding what the rules actually are, so that you can make intelligent house rules around ones you don't like.
I believe we are not going to agree on what the rules say here.
There is a difference though. When you asked for rules backing up my side, I posted them. When I asked you for them... You went back to saying what you said before. This can be solved VERY, VERY easily.
Point out where it tells you not to add modifiers to natural 1's or 20's like the start of the paragraph says. Once you do that, I'll agree I'm wrong. If you can't, you are ignoring the written rules or ignoring them.
I think if you look at my post near the top of the page you will see I endorse playing in a way that does not strictly follow the rules in this instance to increase the fun for the players. If that means leaving images on a PC mage that is near death or destroying images that is on an NPC wizard that is killing them I am fine being inconsistent with the interpretation. I am not sure if there is anything left to discuss.
If you are advocating for a houserule that ignores the actual rules, them I have no issue with you. I just wish that had been clearer from the start. It's only if you are trying to say what you've been saying are the actual rules that I have an issue with your statements.
How much did you miss by?
All of it
That sounds like more than 5.
How much did you miss by?
All of it
That sounds like more than 5.
But if you can only ever mathematically miss by 4 or less, then what difference does it make if you miss by "all of it" than by any other number you can possibly miss by, when it all falls into the same threshold on a given number line?
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Don't skip step one because you're so concerned with step three. If the AC is 11 and you have +11 and you roll a 1, you didn't miss by all of it. You missed by less than zero. 12>11 but I miss because I roll a 1. That is, in fact, less than 4. When your attack bonus is so high you can't help but hit, all misses are near misses!