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The logically consistent positions would seem to me to either be:
You rolled a 1 vs. an opponent with a mirror image. If you had rolled a number that is 5 higher (a 6, in other words), would you have hit? If yes, pop image.
This line of reasoning comes to the conclusion that you do pop on a 1, and also that there isn't anything special or weird about rolling a 1 vs. a 2 for things like Upsetting Strike.
OR
You rolled a 1 vs. an opponent with a mirror image, for a total of 23 to hit. If you had instead had a total of 28, would you have hit? If yes, pop image.
On this line of reasoning, you don't pop on a 1. There also isn't any weirdness for Upsetting strike with this.
Both of these positions seem logically defensible to me, so I feel like you could go either way on this one. I would rule in the first case, personally, that you pop an image.
There's a simple rules case to be made for popping on a 1.
A natural 1 on the die is just a miss, nothing worse. Mirror Image has an effect that triggers on a miss. Any roll resulting in a miss will trigger that effect. Any number on the die can be fed into the calculations required for that effect, even a 1. There is absolutely no language anywhere that would indicate otherwise.
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Which a Natural 1 can still fall under.
The core problem I have with destroying an image is an attacker benefiting on an attack roll of natural 1, I would be fine with an attacker taking an additional penalty from an attack roll of natural 1.For the Upsetting Strike example, the attacker would provoke an AOO on a natural 1.
The rules forum isn't the correct venue for discussing how you would house rule it.
It's important to understand what the actual rules are, so that when you do house rule it, you understand the impact it has on other areas of the game.
And? You still missed by 5 or less mathematically, so an image goes down due to the near miss.
The rules don't say you throw out the math of the attack roll when you roll Natural 1's or Natural 20's, regardless of whether Mirror Images are active or not, all the rules do is rig the result to "Miss" or "Hit," respectively.
This argument applies to more than just Mirror Images, as evidenced by Upsetting Strike, as well as Crane Style (Fighting Defensively), and other similar subjects.
This calls for its own FAQ thread, which I will now make and link to this thread upon its creation.
FAQ Thread made. Please hop on over there and hit the FAQ button.
Mirror Image has an effect that triggers on a miss. Any roll resulting in a miss will trigger that effect.Demonstrably false. Only rolls resulting in a miss by 5 or less will trigger that effect. In other words, only rolls that would have hit had their total numerical result been 5 higher.
The effect I meant is "check if you missed by 5 or less, if so, scratch one image".
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I do not believe you can miss by less than 5 when you roll a natural 1, because you can add five, ten, or an infinity to your roll and still miss. There is no number you can add to a natural 1 and hit, therefore you did not miss by a number.
Depends on how you think of it being added. If you add 5 to your dice roll, you would have rolled a 6 on your d20, and hit.
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Determining by how much you miss someone's AC is something that's required by some systems. A '1' being an automatic miss doesn't waive the need to do that. Someone rolls a '1', that's a miss. And if we need to know by how much you miss, we do the calculations. It's not complicated. Simple adding and subtracting.
There are plenty of rules instances that need it done, and there's not a single rule that precludes it.
So we do it.
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So, according to one interpretation, a Natural 1 is "miss by infinity".
For consistency, I presume a Natural 20 is a "hit by infinity". (Since even if you were operating with a minus on million penalty to hit, you'd still hit.)
Which means if you Bull Rush someone ("For every 5 by which your attack exceeds your opponent’s CMD you can push the target back an additional 5 feet.") and get a natural 20, you've exceeded their CMD by infinity, and you can push them an infinite distance, sending them hurtling to the far side of the universe. Who says martials can't do cool stuff in this game?
Determining by how much you miss someone's AC is something that's required by some systems. A '1' being an automatic miss doesn't waive the need to do that.Pathfinder is not a programmed system. Even if it was, this discussion is about whether your statement is true or not. You can't use your thesis as an argument.
What is the point of this? Not being argumentative here. I really don't see it.
I'm not talking about programming, just about simply following rules stated in straightforward english.
I'm also not presenting a thesis, just pointing out that '1' is a perfectly fine number to feed into the required calculation.
When you miss: AC - (attack bonus + attack roll die result) = by how much you missed.
Do the rules for automatic hits and misses on rolls of '20' or '1' contradict this? No.
Do the rules for Mirror Image contradict this? No.
Whelp, I'm too tired to write here atm. Misinterpreted you, Forseti, sorry.
No problem. I can't edit my previous post anymore to clean up the whole mess. People will just have to ignore some of it. Sorry.
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I assume then that the reverse isn't true the Nat 1 also doesn't miss by more than five either?
If the nat 1 would miss by less than 5 point, you would be able to hit using one of the abilities that allow you to add some point to an attack after comparing it to the target AC?
If your reply is yes, you have missed by a specific amount, and you can pop a mirror image.
If your reply is now, you have missed by an infinite amount, and you can't pop an image.
As the rule answer is "no", you have missed by an infinite amount.
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Take Upsetting Strike for example:
Benefit(s): While you are using Upsetting Shield Style, if a foe is taking a penalty on attack rolls against you as a result of Upsetting Shield Style, and that foe makes a melee attack roll against you that misses your AC by 5 or more, that foe provokes an attack of opportunity from you.
If I roll a 2 and miss you by say 12, you get to attack me. If I roll a 1, you don't get to attack me?
I'd say that they should get an attack.
Of course, logically speaking, the other side would have to say "He doesn't get an attack," for the same logic they give for "He doesn't destroy an illusion."
Otherwise, they're moving goal posts.
(Yes, I close-captioned his rhetorical point, deal with it.)
Read my post above, you have missed by an infinite number, as you can add as much as you want, you never get to hit, so actually with a nat 1 you always miss by more that 12, 42 or whatever number you want.
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Take Upsetting Strike for example:
Benefit(s): While you are using Upsetting Shield Style, if a foe is taking a penalty on attack rolls against you as a result of Upsetting Shield Style, and that foe makes a melee attack roll against you that misses your AC by 5 or more, that foe provokes an attack of opportunity from you.
If I roll a 2 and miss you by say 12, you get to attack me. If I roll a 1, you don't get to attack me?
I'd say that they should get an attack.
Of course, logically speaking, the other side would have to say "He doesn't get an attack," for the same logic they give for "He doesn't destroy an illusion."
Otherwise, they're moving goal posts.
(Yes, I close-captioned his rhetorical point, deal with it.)
This applies to attacks that succeed by more than X as well.
For example,
For every 5 by which your attack exceeds your opponent’s CMD you can push the target back an additional 5 feet.[Ed.: Dirty Trick, Disarm, Drag, Overrun, and Resposition have similar overkill riders.]So if I bull rush the wizard, I can push him back fifteen or twenty feet if I roll a 19, but only five feet if I roll a 20?
And, of course, if I miss my trip by more than 10, I "am knocked prone instead." So I may be knocked prone rolling a 2, but not a 1?
This line of reasoning is, in my opinion, clearly spurious.
That generate some problem for my argument, as with a nat 20 you hit, and even if you have some way to increase your AC after the attack you will never avoid the hit that way. So you would have succeeded by an infinite number. Peasant railgun cannon ensue.
Probably I would limit that to a automatic hit and an additional +20 to the total modified result of the attack for the additional effects generated.
No. you rolled a 1. The image has an armor class . You still missed that.Images have no armor class.
[Citation needed.]Technically, they have one:
Mirror Image
School illusion (figment);
Figment: ...A figment's AC is equal to 10 + its size modifier.
:P
That's a general statement.
Mirror Images can't be specifically targeted with a given attack, so it has no AC to compare it with.
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I do not believe you can miss by less than 5 when you roll a natural 1, because you can add five, ten, or an infinity to your roll and still miss. There is no number you can add to a natural 1 and hit, therefore you did not miss by a number.Depends on how you think of it being added. If you add 5 to your dice roll, you would have rolled a 6 on your d20, and hit.
No, if you modify your dice roll that would happen, but if you add to it you are doing the normal attack math and get nothing.
So, according to one interpretation, a Natural 1 is "miss by infinity".
For consistency, I presume a Natural 20 is a "hit by infinity". (Since even if you were operating with a minus on million penalty to hit, you'd still hit.)
Which means if you Bull Rush someone ("For every 5 by which your attack exceeds your opponent’s CMD you can push the target back an additional 5 feet.") and get a natural 20, you've exceeded their CMD by infinity, and you can push them an infinite distance, sending them hurtling to the far side of the universe. Who says martials can't do cool stuff in this game?
Only up to your movement, but I get your point, Ancalagon pushed away by a tiny hobbit would be hilarious.
And while we're at it, I think they're not the same. While it's true that there isn't any official reference/faq/rule/clarificatrion/etc my humble and imperfect mind interpret it as follows, because again we have no official answers to rely on, and they should be!
- CMB vs CMD is a contest in which every die number from 1 to 20 has a mathematical value.
- Same goes with initiative. If you have +0 and roll a 20 you still go second against an enemy with with +6 that rolls a 17.
- Skills also follow this logic as long as are a contest (Stealth vs Perception). Otherwise what'll happen if both sides roll a 1?
- Attack vs AC and saving throws should be the only ones to fall under the '20 always is a success, 1 is always a miss', stripped from their numerical value.
In the case posted by the OP, given the number 1 value, you're nerfing the spell and at some point you will make it useless.
Then again, it's only my point of view.
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When you are determining what happens after you miss an attack you have already missed.... the fact of whether you rolled a natural 1 or rolled a 19 is irrelevant - once you have missed the natural 1 is irrelevant to determining what happens.
or to put it another way:
A natural 1's only relevance is whether you hit or not. It has no impact when determining what happens after you miss.
I assume then that the reverse isn't true the Nat 1 also doesn't miss by more than five either?If the nat 1 would miss by less than 5 point, you would be able to hit using one of the abilities that allow you to add some point to an attack after comparing it to the target AC?
If your reply is yes, you have missed by a specific amount, and you can pop a mirror image.
If your reply is now, you have missed by an infinite amount, and you can't pop an image.
As the rule answer is "no", you have missed by an infinite amount.
Actually, you missed because you rolled a natural '1'.
The only thing that the rules state about the consequences of a natural '1' on an attack roll is that it results in an automatic miss. There's no language at all to imply, explicitly or implicitly, that this natural '1' is anything other than just a number on a die for purposes other than that.
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So, according to one interpretation, a Natural 1 is "miss by infinity".
If you look at what I said I did not say you missed by infinity; I said you could add any amount to the roll and still miss, therefore you did not miss by any number. To find out what you missed by look at what would need to change so you hit. In that case you would have missed by the rule saying 1s always miss.
For consistency, I presume a Natural 20 is a "hit by infinity". (Since even if you were operating with a minus on million penalty to hit, you'd still hit.)".
Since I never said you hit by infinity you do not get you magically add whatever you want on a 20. At worst it means on a 20 you would only do the minimum effect of push them back 5 feet.
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Rolling a 1 or a 20 rigs the result; that's all it does. You otherwise missed by a negative number. Mathematically speaking, that number is still less than 5, which means you're still popping an image.
After all, if you're going to say -2 > 5, then why are we playing AD&D with the horrid THAC0 rules?
Using that logic also makes for weird results when applied to Bull Rush and rolling a 20. You could Bull Rush roll a nat 20 and exceed their CMD by -5 or -10 and not move them or pull them towards you.
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If your attack is successful, your target is pushed back 5 feet. For every 5 by which your attack exceeds your opponent's CMD you can push the target back an additional 5 feet. You can move with the target if you wish but you must have the available movement to do so. If your attack fails, your movement ends in front of the target.
Nice try, the rules for Bull Rush already cover this.
So, according to one interpretation, a Natural 1 is "miss by infinity".
For consistency, I presume a Natural 20 is a "hit by infinity". (Since even if you were operating with a minus on million penalty to hit, you'd still hit.)
Which means if you Bull Rush someone ("For every 5 by which your attack exceeds your opponent’s CMD you can push the target back an additional 5 feet.") and get a natural 20, you've exceeded their CMD by infinity, and you can push them an infinite distance, sending them hurtling to the far side of the universe. Who says martials can't do cool stuff in this game?
Only up to your movement, but I get your point, Ancalagon pushed away by a tiny hobbit would be hilarious.
No. If you want to move with your opponent during a bull rush, your own movement is limited by your own movement speed, that target however is not. If you move 55' as part of a charge before hitting the bull rush target, then roll +15 over, you can personally move 5 more feet, but still knock the opponent back 15' from its position.
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Natural 20 and Natural 1: On attack rolls and saving throws, a natural 20 is an automatic success and a natural 1 is an automatic failure. But should I treat them differently than other results when deciding if a roll succeeded or failed by 5 or more, when comparing two opposed attack rolls to see which is a higher result, or other similar situations?
No, unless a specific rule tells you otherwise, treat a natural 20 or natural 1 result on an attack roll or saving throw the same as any other result when comparing the total result to other numbers. For example, if a fighter rolls a natural 1 for a total of 31 against the wizard’s AC of 33, the attack misses by 5 or less and destroys one of the wizard’s mirror images.
And we have an answer.
