Started a thread for us.
I've started prepping this and have a question in the spoiler block below.
Thanks!
Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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Similar and expanded question:
This really is the make or break part of this scenario, that will determine how much fun characters are going to have. It was mentioned in the blog, but this one really needs a disclaimer, just consider the following unresolved/troublesome issues:
-Animal Companions: Some of those are relatively quick players might have ways to communicate with them, so they can meet up later during the race. Taking the mount away from a cavalier or hunter is pretty damn significant, and some builds might depend on them.
It gets even more complicated once the Paladin wants to summon his during the race.
-Familiars: Those are definitely clever enough to avoid detection, and frankly that bird... is just a bird. They don't usually have a magical aura...
-Eidolons and Phantoms: Can Eidolons compete? What is stopping the summoner to summon it later, or the a character with a phantom kicking his out of his head? Unless I missed it, it isn't actually defined as cheating.
- There are also a couple of ways to have your familiar bond to you (tattooed sorcerer, tumor familiar).. how to resolve that one ?
- Removing items: This really affects a couple of characters very harshly and almost not at all in other cases.
- Holy symbols could be hidden (but those classes often don't have great sleight of hand skills... of course they could have a tatto.
- Divine Focus: Druids and Rangers might have a harder/easier time, but it seems worthy of clarification.
Divine Focus (DF): A divine focus component is an
item of spiritual significance. The divine focus for a
cleric or a paladin is a holy symbol appropriate to the
character’s faith. The divine focus for a druid or a ranger
is a sprig of holly, or some other sacred plant.
If the Components line includes F/DF or M/DF, the
arcane version of the spell has a focus component or a
material component (the abbreviation before the slash)
and the divine version has a divine focus component (the
abbreviation after the slash).
- Spell component pouch: This is pretty huge, since some classes will be severely hampered by it, while others can pretty much ignore the problem.
- Spellbook/Arcane Bond: This really affects wizards and the occasional sorcerer and occultist... why exactly does the scenario punish them?- Weapons: Gunslingers might as well not apply, while those characters who only really work with a specific weapon (swashbuckler with rapier focus) also won't have a great time.
.... There are likely other areas, but I am seriously bothered by how much the group composition will be relevant.
A group with a CRB figher (sword and board), wizard, gunslinger, and occultisti might run into a TPK..... a group with a monk, a life oracle, a kineticist and a character with wild shape ... might not feel the difficulty at all.
I can see a lot of 1 Star reviews for this one, based in this alone, since some characters really won't enjoy this.
While the race subsystem (and compared to To Seal the Shadow I really don't have a problem with this one, it works and is intended to cover something like this) takes up a good couple of pages, the "rules" for the race are rather vague.
Things my players will likely ask:
- Can we summon mounts via spells like mount ?
-Can we use wildshape and have one or more of us act as mounts for other players ?
-Can we summon helpers?
-Does the whole team have to arrive at the finish line? What if someone dies and we can't recover the body?
- Can we attack other teams to make their progress harder?
- Are these rules written down somewhere?
- If we don't have to sleep and can cast lesser restoration, why do we have to make breaks ?
An additional, though more-so a follow up on Sebastian's points..
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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Another issue that came up in the discussion:
Various magical tattoos are available for sale, how t owe deal with that?
Another thing that came up during the discussion was that players could enter a death spiral. If you don't have a caster that can create water and don't succeed at their survival checks to search for food on the first day .... you can end up with a -10 penalty...
If you didn't have someone who was already good at survival, now your chances are even worse.
I guess GMs need to be quite upfront about the need to find food and water and the potential effects since those are penalties are not listed on the handout.
Hey gals and guys.
No answers on our questions yet, but I think I found a stat block mistake.
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I'm going to be running this tonight and, having reflected on it, I'm going to be disallowing AC's and mounts unless they attempt to conceal them. A gunslinger would otherwise be denied their gun, so it seems fair enough that a mount or AC should also be disallowed even if it is vital to the build. Phantoms, familiars, and eidolons are a bit trickier, but I think the justification is you (usually) can't ride them and it is a foot race. If that isn't sound enough reasoning, they're intelligent enough to be considered members of the team.
Without clarification, I think this scenario is going to be an odd duck that doesn't see much play. The in-world rules are too nebulous and it severely gimps a lot of classes, more than the standard low CHA frontliner in a social scenario.
Sorry Sebastian, I meant to say that depending on their potential archetypes and what not. But true enough.
I have been prepping this one, but I think I may wait in the hopes that someone will drop a note here or elsewhere clarifying this part of the scenario. I could run it and just run my own "variation" on it until it is clarified I suppose.
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I feel like once players understand both the race rules and the pursuit mechanics, they will really take to them. Just be mindful of the limit of advantages they can earn.
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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** spoiler omitted **
The race, and survival aspects seem fine and rather fitting, personally, I would have preferred something like some sort of penalty for keeping access to certain items so players can make a somewhat informed decision.
How easily did they discover the ashen leaves plot ? The rolls are not that automatic. Did they fell that using those supplies would be going against the spirit of the rules?
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** spoiler omitted **** spoiler omitted **
After the session, I asked them what they would have done if anyone had animal companions. They told me they would have hidden them in the woods.
Developer
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Eidolons, phantoms, familiars, class-granted mounts, animal companions, and other companion creatures are not considered to be possessions, and are all assumed to be able to accompany the PCs. The PCs may not bring purchased animals, which are considered to be possessions.
I recognize that this distinction could introduce a bit of metagaming weirdness. To justify this distinction in-world, the race organizers are able to recognize the bond between the PC and a mount or animal companion because of how naturally the PC can command the creature (as per the companion’s 1st level link ability). Eidolons, phantoms, and familiars have sufficient intelligence to distinguish themselves as participants on the team. As long as there aren’t enough mounts to go around that every PC could perform the race mounted, the organizers are willing to permit a few ride-able creatures. If many PCs bring mounts, use your discretion as a GM to determine how many mounts the organizers will permit (roughly one per 2 PCs is a good guideline).
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I'm preparing this and after my first read, my big concern is weapons & armor for the party. If they don't discover (and keep) the weapons cache and they don't successfully Craft or Modify Tools in time, that first combat could TPK some parties.
Add to that the lack of warning that they should be prepared to go without their gear before the scenario and it's of concern to me. How has that angle gone for everyone?
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Ran it tonight. I have to quote the player of the Gunslinger, who did essentially nothing all session
"I personally want to kick them in the dick for this"
I had a group of 4 characters, L1, 2, 3, 3. So literally as high tier as you can be and still be clearly low tier.
They didn't get the weapons cache and had huge difficulties with all the combats. If not for the 2 level 3s they'd almost certainly have failed with at least some deaths. Heck, if I hadn't been softballing some of the combats something fierce they'd have lost characters.
The biggest problem with this scenario is that different groups are going to be affected to wildly different amounts depending on the individual characters. If your group is significantly affected then some of the battles are going to be QUITE brutal.
I'd expect a group of first levels to just die, unless they're all unchained monks or something.
This is now the second Season 8 Low Tier scenario that I will NOT run for new players
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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Ran it tonight. I have to quote the player of the Gunslinger, who did essentially nothing all session
"I personally want to kick them in the dick for this"
I had a group of 4 characters, L1, 2, 3, 3. So literally as high tier as you can be and still be clearly low tier.
They didn't get the weapons cache and had huge difficulties with all the combats. If not for the 2 level 3s they'd almost certainly have failed with at least some deaths. Heck, if I hadn't been softballing some of the combats something fierce they'd have lost characters.
The biggest problem with this scenario is that different groups are going to be affected to wildly different amounts depending on the individual characters. If your group is significantly affected then some of the battles are going to be QUITE brutal.
I'd expect a group of first levels to just die, unless they're all unchained monks or something.
This is now the second Season 8 Low Tier scenario that I will NOT run for new players
That's not too far or from what I feared, what I really would like to know, is how the characters spend their actions on the run. Did they try to create weapons (like bows for the gunslinger) , did tey have trouble with finding water/food? Did anyone have something to essentially (legally) cheat (eidolon/phantom, casters with eschew materials, wild shape)?
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Ran it tonight. I have to quote the player of the Gunslinger, who did essentially nothing all session
"I personally want to kick them in the dick for this"
I had a group of 4 characters, L1, 2, 3, 3. So literally as high tier as you can be and still be clearly low tier.
They didn't get the weapons cache and had huge difficulties with all the combats. If not for the 2 level 3s they'd almost certainly have failed with at least some deaths. Heck, if I hadn't been softballing some of the combats something fierce they'd have lost characters.
The biggest problem with this scenario is that different groups are going to be affected to wildly different amounts depending on the individual characters. If your group is significantly affected then some of the battles are going to be QUITE brutal.
I'd expect a group of first levels to just die, unless they're all unchained monks or something.
This is now the second Season 8 Low Tier scenario that I will NOT run for new players
In this case, you should have looked at the party make up and recommended they play down. This is a fringe case specifically called out in the RPGG. If they ignored the recommendation, it would be on them. I am running this at Paizocon. Getting heads up info like this thread is helping me plan what to do there.
In the fringe case where there are no PCs that are high enough level to have reached the subtier level (such as a party of six 3rd-level characters), the group can decide to play the lower subtier.
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Ran it tonight. I have to quote the player of the Gunslinger, who did essentially nothing all session
"I personally want to kick them in the dick for this"
I had a group of 4 characters, L1, 2, 3, 3. So literally as high tier as you can be and still be clearly low tier.
They didn't get the weapons cache and had huge difficulties with all the combats. If not for the 2 level 3s they'd almost certainly have failed with at least some deaths. Heck, if I hadn't been softballing some of the combats something fierce they'd have lost characters.
The biggest problem with this scenario is that different groups are going to be affected to wildly different amounts depending on the individual characters. If your group is significantly affected then some of the battles are going to be QUITE brutal.
I'd expect a group of first levels to just die, unless they're all unchained monks or something.
This is now the second Season 8 Low Tier scenario that I will NOT run for new players
In this case, you should have looked at the party make up and recommended they play down. This is a fringe case specifically called out in the RPGG. If they ignored the recommendation, it would be on them. I am running this at Paizocon. Getting heads up info like this thread is helping me plan what to do there.
In the fringe case where there are no PCs that are high enough level to have reached the subtier level (such as a party of six 3rd-level characters), the group can decide to play the lower subtier.
I don't think that Paul was saying his group played high tier. I think he was saying that they were low tier but still had huge problems despite the level 3s.
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I don't think that Paul was saying his group played high tier. I think he was saying that they were low tier but still had huge problems despite the level 3s.
That is correct.
The group had a cleric with create water and so just ignored the water issues (they were out before food was an issue).
They spent the first session trying to craft stuff and did middling well. Crucially, they made the cleric Holy Symbol. But they failed to create a bow (not that it would have been THAT useful since the gunslinger had dumped strength)
Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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We played this today under the auspices of one of our fledgling-getting-mature GMs. This was his first time running a brand-new scenario with tricky mechanics though. It went pretty well though.
We had a party consisting of a L3 shaman, L3 hunter (wolf), a L5 paladin/bloodrager, L4 Amiri pregen new player, L5 spirit whisperer wizard and L5 spiritualist. That put us squarely in the high tier. (Since I'd heard that we'd be doing a no-gear game I helped the new player pick a pregen that could adapt to different weaponry easily.)
After the mission briefing the question came up of spell components, and there was a moment of uncertainty about what a shaman's divine focus actually is. (This question seems to be unresolved.) The shaman went to get a holy symbol tattoo and the tattoo artist told him "we get a lot of those this time of year".
We easily picked up on the nobles' treachery and both my Iroran spiritualist and the paladin felt that this was unsportsmanlike, so we reported them to the judges. We swung by the item cache and were feeling fairly re-equipped thereafter.
One thing I liked about the no-gear experience was playing with not quite as much healing as typical; the shaman's healing channel felt a lot more valuable than when CLW wands are plentiful.
Between two familiars, a wolf companion, a phantom and six players, there were a lot of people to quest for advantages. The wizard's coral capuchin and the wolf stripped the countryside bare with foraging. Everyone else was reasonably effective at generating advantages so we made almost maximum speed.
That was good, because our GM was under the impression that we had to visit all hexes in order from 1 to 8. Reading the scenario now it looks like all you need to do is get from 1 to 8 in any path you like without leaving the numbered areas.
In the end we were able to win the race barely by using some hustling and forced marching. The paladin had plentiful fatigue-removing mercies so once we realized that forced marching was quite easy for us.
The combats were of varying quality. It seems that we did all of them because we had to go through all tiles. The latter ones I don't like so much, because they take place on really small map tiles. The Caterpillar Nest is a 5x8 area with three large monsters on it; add six PCs, a wolf and a phantom, and it's quite absurd.
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On the whole the adventure was well-received, although I think the pursuit rules need a bit more trimming on the presentation side for clarity and ease of use.
Venture-Captain, Missouri—Cape Girardeau
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Ran this to day and ended the game with a question.
If the team takes first place, there is this:
Treasure: The Pathfinder Society promised to return
most of the race’s prize money to the Sargavan government
in exchange for granting them greater access to the chalice.
Nevertheless, Finze Bellaugh ensures that the PCs are well
rewarded for their performance (largely by placing a few
discrete bets on the outcome of the race). If the PCs finish
the race in first place, Venture-Captain Bellaugh gives them
a bonus of 1,400 gp in Subtier 1–2 (5,000 gp in Subtier 4–5).
How exactly is this additional reward supposed to be recorded? and is that additional GP per character? Or divided among the players? Because if this isn't figured into the GP awarded by the Chronicle (and by doing the encounter math, it looks like the answer is "No"), then the additional reward penalizes larger tables.
My players enjoyed the story, but many of them are not interested in Part 2, based on how this ran.
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My players enjoyed the story, but many of them are not interested in Part 2, based on how this ran.
From the teaser blurb of the second part, it isn't going to be the same as this one.
Ages before the rise of modern civilization, the cyclops empire of Ghol-Gan ruled what is now the Mwangi Expanse. The Society sends the PCs deep into the untamed Kaava lands to explore a cyclops ruin, where with a new tool in hand, the Pathfinders might uncover its forgotten and dark history. Can the PCs prevent the ruin's past from becoming Sargava's future?
>shifty look<
I began reading through as prep for when i have to run it, i may have questions as to how to run the Pursuit.
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Ran this to day and ended the game with a question.
If the team takes first place, there is this:
Treasure: The Pathfinder Society promised to return
most of the race’s prize money to the Sargavan government
in exchange for granting them greater access to the chalice.
Nevertheless, Finze Bellaugh ensures that the PCs are well
rewarded for their performance (largely by placing a few
discrete bets on the outcome of the race). If the PCs finish
the race in first place, Venture-Captain Bellaugh gives them
a bonus of 1,400 gp in Subtier 1–2 (5,000 gp in Subtier 4–5).How exactly is this additional reward supposed to be recorded? and is that additional GP per character? Or divided among the players? Because if this isn't figured into the GP awarded by the Chronicle (and by doing the encounter math, it looks like the answer is "No"), then the additional reward penalizes larger tables.
My players enjoyed the story, but many of them are not interested in Part 2, based on how this ran.
I just assumed this was already incorporated into the Chronicle sheet so I only had to worry about it if the PCs did NOT win.
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We had a party consisting of a L3 shaman, L3 hunter (wolf), a L5 paladin/bloodrager, L4 Amiri pregen new player, L5 spirit whisperer wizard and L5 spiritualist.
...
And we see again how incredibly swingy this scenario is going to be. As this thread shows, it is NOT clear whether or not familiars and animal companions are to be allowed (seems no way to stop the Spiritualist).
So, with a GM who took a different tack, the shaman, hunter and Spirit whisperer wizard would all be very severely affected. While at your table they were allowed to bring their pets and weren't particularly.
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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We played this today under the auspices of one of our fledgling-getting-mature GMs. This was his first time running a brand-new scenario with tricky mechanics though. It went pretty well though.
We had a party consisting of a L3 shaman, L3 hunter (wolf), a L5 paladin/bloodrager, L4 Amiri pregen new player, L5 spirit whisperer wizard and L5 spiritualist. That put us squarely in the high tier. (Since I'd heard that we'd be doing a no-gear game I helped the new player pick a pregen that could adapt to different weaponry easily.)
After the mission briefing the question came up of spell components, and there was a moment of uncertainty about what a shaman's divine focus actually is. (This question seems to be unresolved.) The shaman went to get a holy symbol tattoo and the tattoo artist told him "we get a lot of those this time of year".
We easily picked up on the nobles' treachery and both my Iroran spiritualist and the paladin felt that this was unsportsmanlike, so we reported them to the judges. We swung by the item cache and were feeling fairly re-equipped thereafter.
One thing I liked about the no-gear experience was playing with not quite as much healing as typical; the shaman's healing channel felt a lot more valuable than when CLW wands are plentiful.
Between two familiars, a wolf companion, a phantom and six players, there were a lot of people to quest for advantages. The wizard's coral capuchin and the wolf stripped the countryside bare with foraging. Everyone else was reasonably effective at generating advantages so we made almost maximum speed.
That was good, because our GM was under the impression that we had to visit all hexes in order from 1 to 8. Reading the scenario now it looks like all you need to do is get from 1 to 8 in any path you like without leaving the numbered areas.
In the end we were able to win the race barely by using some hustling and forced marching. The paladin had plentiful fatigue-removing mercies so once we realized that forced marching was quite easy for
...
So you had almost the perfect group for this, 6 players and 4 class feature entities... with a pretty good APL.
Yeah, if the players had all those advantages no wonder the scenario was well received.
EDIT:I had already planned to copy the blog mentioning that is it a race without gear into the warhorn signup for this scenario, but I really fear that if players chose characters to mitigate this problem the scenario might lose quite a bit of bite.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 8
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And we see again how incredibly swingy this scenario is going to be. As this thread shows, it is NOT clear whether or not familiars and animal companions are to be allowed (seems no way to stop the Spiritualist)
We had a party consisting of a L3 shaman, L3 hunter (wolf), a L5 paladin/bloodrager, L4 Amiri pregen new player, L5 spirit whisperer wizard and L5 spiritualist.
...
See Linda's post up thread for a clarification.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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And we see again how incredibly swingy this scenario is going to be. As this thread shows, it is NOT clear whether or not familiars and animal companions are to be allowed (seems no way to stop the Spiritualist).
We had a party consisting of a L3 shaman, L3 hunter (wolf), a L5 paladin/bloodrager, L4 Amiri pregen new player, L5 spirit whisperer wizard and L5 spiritualist.
...
Linda clarified this. Basically, if you didn't pay gold for it and it has a face, it's not a possession.
So, with a GM who took a different tack, the shaman, hunter and Spirit whisperer wizard would all be very severely affected. While at your table they were allowed to bring their pets and weren't particularly.
I'm okay with a bit of a difference in how hard it is. If you're going on something clearly advised as nature-y and you bring nature-themed characters, that's going to make a difference. Just like bringing paladins to a Worldwound adventure.
But I agree with you that the difference can be rather extreme. I think most classes "can handle" it;
- Anyone with decent Strength and BAB can pick up a length of wood as a club, or use any found/looted weaponry.
- It's possible to fabricate piercing weapons for swashbucklers.
- You get a day's warning of the rules so you can prepare spells that you can still cast.
- It's possible to forage for material components. Classic sorcerers get Eschew Materials. Psychic casters don't use materials. And not nearly all spells have material components to begin with.
- Oracles don't need divine foci. Druids/rangers should be able to find them in the wild. Clerics can get a tattoo. Shamans can mimic whatever workaround, depending on which parent class' rule for divine foci you think applies to them.
- There's a wizard spellbook, with a decent spell selection at least for this adventure.
- It's possible to fabricate or loot armor.
Some classes aren't going to be bothered to any significant degree. I think it's only a handful of classes that face insurmountable problems;
- Alchemists and Investigators probably can't find a crafting kit, unless the GM is very forgiving on foraging checks.
- Gunslingers are in trouble.
- Wizards who rely on very specific spells as well as melee types who need a specific (exotic) weapon may not be able to get access to it. This includes dex-to-damage builds that rely on Agile items.
So yeah, those are indeed not the true pioneering PCs. Even those characters are likely to have high (knowledge) skills that can help with navigation, but otherwise they're badly off.
I think the scenario really needs players to be flexible and "make do" instead of fixating on what you don't have.
Remember that I said we had a paladin and an Amiri pregen playing? Both of them were simple strength builds, and they were performing at 90% normal capacity. Amiri maybe even better after being relieved of the oversized weapon penalties she normally has. By the time we got to the finish line the paladin was clad in a masterwork breastplate and was wielding a masterwork longsword.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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So you had almost the perfect group for this, 6 players and 4 class feature entities... with a pretty good APL.
I feel no need to apologize for playing a scenario with a party that's neatly inside the prescribed tier. 3,3,4,5,5,5 should be just fine for a 4-5 tier, even scary for the L3 on the frontline.
Yeah, if the players had all those advantages no wonder the scenario was well received.
We had lots of advantages, but our GM also messed up by thinking we needed to cover almost twice as much distance as actually required.
EDIT:I had already planned to copy the blog mentioning that is it a race without gear into the warhorn signup for this scenario, but I really fear that if players chose characters to mitigate this problem the scenario might lose quite a bit of bite.
The combats were still fierce here and there, especially the dragon things in the beginning. And we ended up storming the hillside which allowed the enemy rogue to throw stuff at flat-footed climbers.
The actual travel challenge was easy for us because the Advantage-seeking system doesn't require more advantages for a bigger group, so a large team can overwhelm it.
I do think this scenario is going to be fairly easy for a whole "wilderness party" as compared to a random sample, but that just makes sense.
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Having just played this I agree it can be very swingy.
The biggest problem is the nerf will cause some players to not have fun at the table.
I would suggest warning players before they start what will happen, it should public knowledge from the blog anyway.
Because the game runs over multiple days classes that can recharge overnight will have a much easier time.
It is a nice idea to see how character go when stripped of their gear but the execution needs work
A few contrasts:
A wizard loses their spell book but the witch does not.
an alchemist loses most of their class features but the cleric just buys a holy symbol tattoo.
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I ran at the 1-2 this today and both I and my party enjoyed it immensely. It certainly helped that my party embraced the challenges involved. I plan to write a review after I play it tomorrow at another venue.
I do have a few questions. I was unable to determine if a single PC can attempt more than one Advantage attempt per phase, not including Gather Resources with the -5 penalty.
The other table at our venue today finished very quickly as one of our out the box thinkers used Invisibility and a Handy Haversack to sneak out the night before and bury the party's best equipment along their next day's route. My question is how could/should future GMs handle this tactic as I have no doubt it shall happen again at some table, some time. My hat is off to the player in question for his inventive playing, but it seems like it would render the scenario a walkthrough.
Thanks for any input!
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The other table at our venue today finished very quickly as one of our out the box thinkers used Invisibility and a Handy Haversack to sneak out the night before and bury the party's best equipment along their next day's route.
The PCs definitely need a third party to do this. Or a lot more shenanigans than an invisibility spell.
Immediately after they announce that they're participating, ALL their possessions are taken away. Only then do they go to the starting point of the actual race.
So the PCs have to get rid of all their possessions BEFORE they sign up and then arrange for those possessions to make it to the starting line, all while being fairly closely watched. The PCs do NOT know where the race is going to start until they actually get to the starting line.
I can see a few in character options (especially for high tier characters) to accomplish this but it certainly should be non trivial.
As a GM I would not let them just hire a 3rd party accomplice (nor would I let the VC help).
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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So you had almost the perfect group for this, 6 players and 4 class feature entities... with a pretty good APL.I feel no need to apologize for playing a scenario with a party that's neatly inside the prescribed tier. 3,3,4,5,5,5 should be just fine for a 4-5 tier, even scary for the L3 on the frontline.
Yeah, if the players had all those advantages no wonder the scenario was well received.We had lots of advantages, but our GM also messed up by thinking we needed to cover almost twice as much distance as actually required.
EDIT:I had already planned to copy the blog mentioning that is it a race without gear into the warhorn signup for this scenario, but I really fear that if players chose characters to mitigate this problem the scenario might lose quite a bit of bite.The combats were still fierce here and there, especially the dragon things in the beginning. And we ended up storming the hillside which allowed the enemy rogue to throw stuff at flat-footed climbers.
The actual travel challenge was easy for us because the Advantage-seeking system doesn't require more advantages for a bigger group, so a large team can overwhelm it.
I do think this scenario is going to be fairly easy for a whole "wilderness party" as compared to a random sample, but that just makes sense.
Not meant as a insult, but 1-5 scenarios - for a number of really good reasons - tend to be on the easier side, and 6 players or several level 5 characters can tend to overwhelm them.
(I have the fun of dealing with characters who almost hit AC30 or throw CL 8+ evocation spells in that tier).Thanks to Linda's clarification the number of affected classes has been reduced, but some like Alchemists, casters with the arcane bond class feature, gunslingers and a couple of other might have a bad time. Particularly if they dumped certain stats, and now their build won't work.
After rereading the scenario description, yeah the fact that they are going into the Sargava's wilder areas is mentioned, but the critical limitation this scenario poses really should be mentioned in the description.
EDIT: SO basically this is a communications issue, players need to be informed about the scenario before, and during (the getting advantages phase) who they can counter those problems.
I have to read it more carefully after I have played it, but it seems like the number of advantages is only really limited by the tile.
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I have to read it more carefully after I have played it, but it seems like the number of advantages is only really limited by the tile.
The whole advantage thing is very likely a non issue. If the PCs have a speed of 30 ft, do one Hustle a day (free) and Force March every day they'll easily pass the other teams. Although the players won't know how well they're doing
And the DCs are low enough that even a team of 4 characters should be able to get an advantage or two if they want.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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It looks like if you fabricate some tools you even get advantages that carry over from phase to phase.
Like I said, we took the long way around and still made it.
I think the scenario isn't nearly as hard as players think at first, when they're told to strip. If you get the initial equipment cache and you have some people who can use a longsword at least - it's a lot harder if you have exactly your heirloom agile starknife or something. Specialist builds are hit harder than the "I just use Strength" melee types.
I think it highlights that normally PFS lets you get away with a degree of specialization that makes you fragile.
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We played it last Friday night with a party of 4 PC's. Warpriest 4, Fighter(Ranged) 3, Fighter(sword and board)4 and Inquisitor 3.
After the shock wore off, we got down to REALLY looking through our spell list for ones not needing a DF. Create water was not a problem, and the Warpriest had a spell called Marching Chant, that allows one person per level to hustle but have it count as walking! This was VERY useful.
The Inquisitor was stealthier than the Nobles and was able to overhear their plans and recover the map which we turned in. We boasted of our prowess and did well with it. We recovered the cache from the ruins and with the bows and swords, made short work of the combats. The last one lasted the longest and hurt the most because of lack of our DF items/tattoos, because we had NO crafting ability. We completed the course in like 2.5 days in first place due to the two hustles and two forced marches.
Overall, fun scenario that I will enjoy running in the future. I liked how it really made us look deeply at our character abilities, strength and weakness.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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@Selvaxri: since casters can reassemble component pouches from what they forage, I'd be okay with letting alchemists try as well. The rules for advantages sound a lot like "these are typical advantages; if players want to do something else that makes sense, use these as an example to make a similar ruling". They're not an exhaustive list of options.
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I'm prepping for Paizocon and did a run through of just the pursuit mechanic with another GM. On one of our runs, crafting DCs of 15 were VERY problematic. I had multiple misses of DC 13 & 14. We assumed that the party wouldn't get the gear cache.
The scenario specifically says that you can make lesser quality gear with a lower DC, but says nothing else. Does anyone have an opinion on what that ought to mean? Would they be fragile weapons instead?
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Regional Venture-Coordinator, Central Europe
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Pesonally i would use the table for the craft skill in the crb as a guideline:
Armor or shield 10 + AC bonus
Longbow, shortbow, or arrows 12
Composite longbow or composite shortbow 15
Composite longbow or composite shortbow with high strength rating 15 + (2 × rating)
Crossbow, or bolts 15
Simple melee or thrown weapon 12
Martial melee or thrown weapon 15
Exotic melee or thrown weapon 18
Very simple item (wooden spoon) 5
Typical item (iron pot) 10
High-quality item (bell) 15
Complex or superior item (lock) 20
Maybe go even lower (like DC 10)for very simple weapons like a spear or a club.
I am still not sure if the PCs are supposed to take the -2 penalty on craft checks for having no tools (unless they build the tools in the first place).