So my husband's character has a +1 longsword we'd like to turn into a +1 humanoid-bane longsword, but lack experience with magical item creation.
Here's what I understand (or maybe don't) so far:
The price for a +1 humanoid-bane longsword is that of a masterwork longsword + +1 enhancement bonus twice, so 4315gp.
Caster level for magic weapons is supposed to be 3 x enhancement bonus or the Caster Level requirement for the special ability. For the 'Bane' ability (looking at Ultimate Equipment) the construction requirements list summon monster 1/cost +1 bonus. The caster level for the +2 enhancement would therefore be 6, except it actually states CL 8th here - so clearly I'm misunderstanding something at this point?
Another question I have is that if it requires Summon Monster 1, can Summon Monster 2 be used instead?
Am I right in thinking the price to add this ability would be 2000gp?
And who needs to meet the Caster Level requirement - the crafter, or the person providing the spell?
First off, you cannot make a humanoid-bane weapon. You have to pick a subtype, like humanoid(elf) or humanoid(human).
The price of a +2-equivalent weapon is (2^2)*2000 = 8000 not 4000. (The 315 is correct, of course.) So the price of adding the bane is 8000-2000 = 6000. If he crafts it himself he only pays the cost, 6000/2=3000.
CL of 3 x enhancement bonus means actual enhancement bonus, not equivalent. Your +1 bane weapon will only have an enhancement bonus of +1, requiring a CL of 3. Since bane has its own CL requirement (8) you use the higher of the two.
LucyG92 wrote: Another question I have is that if it requires Summon Monster 1, can Summon Monster 2 be used instead? Totally up to the GM. I would definitely allow it.
Finally, the CL requirement is on the crafter, not any supplemental spellcasters.
I'll explain the whole proccess below:
Price
When you calculate the value of a magic weapon, you add the effective bonus of the special abilites to the actual enhancement bonus of the weapon, and figure out the cost based on the total.
A +1 weapon adds 2000gp on top of the mundane masterwork price.
A +2 weapon adds 8000gp on top of the mundane masterwork price.
A +1 Bane weapon is treated as a +2 weapon for the purpose of price.
Caster level
While you add the effective enhancement bonus to the actual enhancement bonus to figure out the weapon's price, you don't do the same thing for the purpose of its caster level prerequisite.
A +1 enhancement bonus has a minimum caster level of 3.
A Bane weapon has a minimum caster level of 8.
So a +1 Bane weapon needs a caster level of 8, because that's the highest option.
Summon Monster I prerequisite
Strictly speaking, Summon Monster II can't be substituted, but a reasonable DM should probably let you do it anyway as a homebrew rule.
Crafting
When you craft a magic weapon, you make skill checks against DC 5+caster level of the item. As we learned above, your +1 Bane sword has to have a caster level of 8.
You can have two people work together to meet the prerequisites (which are caster level 8 and Summon Monster I). It doesn't matter who meets what prerequisite, so long as at least one of the people involved meets it.
Finally, if you don't meet the prerequisite, you can craft the item anyway by raising the spellcraft DC. The DC increases by 5 for each prerequisite you don't fulful.
So because the caster level of the +1 Bane sword is 8, the base DC is 13=5(base)+8(caster level).
If you don't have access to caster level 8, the DC becomes 18(13+5 for not meeting the caster level prereq.)
If you don't have access to summon monster I, the DC becomes 18.
If you don't have Summon Monster I, and you don't have Caster Level 8, the DC becomes 23(5+8+5+5).
Pricing
You already have a +1 sword. This means that 2310 of the total 8310gp is already paid. Thus, if you're paying an NPC crafter to upgrade the sword for you, it should cost 6000gp.
If you're crafting it yourself, you only pay half price for materials, so it costs 3000gp, because that's half of 6000gp.
Ah. Thanks so much for the help, that makes it a lot clearer.
I'm the GM and using Summon Monster 2 sounds fine to me (Another character is providing the spell).
He has asked about getting around the CL requirement for Bane by maybe creating a weaker version instead (he has a CL of 6), so the enhancement bonus would be +1 better vs humanoids (humans) instead of +2 and it only does 1d6 extra damage. I think that sounds okay... not sure what to do about the end price, I suppose it would stay the same?
Bane is a +1 weapon property. There isn't anything less than +1 unless you go with a flat GP price, which I do not suggest for what is trying to be done here. I suggest either waiting until the caster level is high enough, or going after a lower CL property instead.
LucyG92 wrote: Ah. Thanks so much for the help, that makes it a lot clearer.
I'm the GM and using Summon Monster 2 sounds fine to me (Another character is providing the spell).
He has asked about getting around the CL requirement for Bane by maybe creating a weaker version instead (he has a CL of 6), so the enhancement bonus would be +1 better vs humanoids (humans) instead of +2 and it only does 1d6 extra damage. I think that sounds okay... not sure what to do about the end price, I suppose it would stay the same?
Honestly, if he's sixth level, he should be able to meet a DC 18 spellcraft check by taking ten easily. Since that's all he needs to craft it without meeting the prereq, that's much easier than fiddling around with creating custom items.
Actually, while it isn't RAW, nothing goes awry if you use fractional bonus-equivalents.
Say you want to upgrade a +1 weapon to a +1 human-semibane weapon, semibane being a weakened version of bane that's considered equivalent to +.5 and has CL <= 6.
Upgrade = 2000 * ((1+.5)^2 - 1^2) = 2000 * (2.25 - 1) = 2500 price or 1250 cost.
Ierox wrote: LucyG92 wrote: Ah. Thanks so much for the help, that makes it a lot clearer.
I'm the GM and using Summon Monster 2 sounds fine to me (Another character is providing the spell).
He has asked about getting around the CL requirement for Bane by maybe creating a weaker version instead (he has a CL of 6), so the enhancement bonus would be +1 better vs humanoids (humans) instead of +2 and it only does 1d6 extra damage. I think that sounds okay... not sure what to do about the end price, I suppose it would stay the same?
Honestly, if he's sixth level, he should be able to meet a DC 18 spellcraft check by taking ten easily. Since that's all he needs to craft it without meeting the prereq, that's much easier than fiddling around with creating custom items. Yup, take the +5DC to ignore the CL pre-requisite.
Ierox wrote:
Caster level
While you add the effective enhancement bonus to the actual enhancement bonus to figure out the weapon's price, you don't do the same thing for the purpose of its caster level prerequisite.
A +1 enhancement bonus has a minimum caster level of 3.
A Bane weapon has a minimum caster level of 8.
So a +1 Bane weapon needs a caster level of 8, because that's the highest option.
I've always read that differently.
There's nothing in the requirements list for Bane that specifies CL8, that's just the equivalent CL of the item after it's made.
Compare that with Spell Storing, which has an item CL12 and specifies the caster must be level 12 in the requirements list...that last would be redundant if the item CL was also a requirement.
AS others have noted, for many magic items the caster level isn't a requirement (if it has a special CL requirement beyond what is needed to cast the required spells then that is specifically listed.) Rather the CL on most items is just the caster level most typical found/purchased items of that type happen to have. This is needed for things like checking against dispel magic but otherwise doesn't really effect the item or it's price.
This is different for magic weapons/armor:
Quote: Creating a magic weapon has a special prerequisite: The creator’s caster level must be at least three times the enhancement bonus of the weapon. If an item has both an enhancement bonus and a special ability, the higher of the two caster level requirements must be met.
That assumes the added ability has a caster level requirement, which very few of them do.
Which few would those be?
From the Magic Weapons section:
Quote: Caster Level for Weapons: The caster level of a weapon with a special ability is given in the item description. For an item with only an enhancement bonus and no other abilities, the caster level is three times the enhancement bonus. If an item has both an enhancement bonus and a special ability, the higher of the two caster level requirements must be met. This suggests that the listed CL IS the caster level requirement for a special ability. I've not seen a weapon special ability list a caster level requirement other than the usual CL in the item description.
Spell Storing, Dispelling Burst, Dispelling are the ones I'm aware of, there might be more.
Jarrahkin wrote: Spell Storing, Dispelling Burst, Dispelling are the ones I'm aware of, there might be more. That lists a pre-requisite caster level for the creator, not for the weapon.
Isn't that the entire point of this discussion, the CL of the creator?
Jarrahkin wrote: Isn't that the entire point of this discussion, the CL of the creator? No, it's the CL of the item itself. For items like wondrous items, the listed CL of the ability is not a pre-requisite. For weapons and armor it is. Specifically, for example, the bane ability (CL 8).
Nowhere in the requirements list for most special abilities does it state a caster level requirement. There's no "specifically" that applies to Bane at all, and I've given a list of those where it is specifically stated.
The passage you quoted above, from the Magic Weapon section, says nothing at all about crafting the item, it just refers to the overall CL of the weapon.
From the FAQ under Crafting Magic Items, as an extension:
Quote: Does creating a magic item require the creator to be of the same or higher caster level of the item itself? This doesn’t seem to square with the CLs listed for specific magic items; for instance, a Belt of Giant Strength +2 has CL 8th, but the only spell required in its creation, bull’s strength, has a minimum caster level of 3.
Am I missing anything here?
Answer: Though the listed Caster Level for a pearl of power is 17th, that caster level is not part of the Requirements listing for that item. Therefore, the only caster level requirement for a pearl of power is the character has to be able to cast spells of the desired level.
In any event, I doubt we'll convince each other of our respective interpretations, and if yours works for your group, so be it. I'm happy enough with mine and comfortable with it in terms of how the rules read to me as both a player and a DM.
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Dude, I explicitly pointed it out for you, I'll do it again:
Quote: Creating a magic weapon has a special prerequisite: The creator’s caster level must be at least three times the enhancement bonus of the weapon. If an item has both an enhancement bonus and a special ability, the higher of the two caster level requirements must be met. Quote: Caster Level for Weapons: The caster level of a weapon with a special ability is given in the item description. For an item with only an enhancement bonus and no other abilities, the caster level is three times the enhancement bonus. If an item has both an enhancement bonus and a special ability, the higher of the two caster level requirements must be met. The caster level of a weapon with a special ability is given in its description.
The higher of the two caster level requirements must be met.
Wondrous items do not have this special requirement, so your quote is irrelevant. Armor and weapons have specific rules that override the general crafting rule regarding item CLs.
Again, we're talking about the 'caster level of a weapon', as per the 2nd quote, which is noted in the item description, as per the 2nd quote, and is specifically required for crafting, as per both the 1st and 2nd quote.
The extra crafter caster level requirements that you note, are in addition to the caster level requirements of the weapon special abilities.
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