What would happen if you let non-casters "know" 1 spell per rank in Spellcraft?


Homebrew and House Rules


What it says in the title: assume for the purposes of magic item crafting non-casters could "know" a few spells so that when they made magic items using Master Craftsman they didn't have to raise the DC because they didn't know the correct spells. Spellcraft (or maybe a Knowledge skill) would give 1 "known" spell per rank, kind of how Linguistics gives 1 language.


It's not just that they have to know the spell, they have to 'expend' the spell for each day of crafting. So this doesn't really make sense in terms of crafting.


If your intent is simply to make item crafting a little easier, then I don't see a problem with allowing it. If your players are into bending and twisting the rules, then it could lead to abuse. If they are pretty casual as players, then it should be fine.

Are there spellcasters in the group? A spellcaster can assist the the character with the Master Craftsman feat by casting the spell for them. If the spellcaster doesn't have the spell, they can buy it on a scroll. A character with Use Magic Device could do the same thing.


Ciaran Barnes wrote:
If your players are into bending and twisting the rules, then it could lead to abuse.

What abuse?

Ciaran Barnes wrote:
A spellcaster can assist the the character with the Master Craftsman feat by casting the spell for them. If the spellcaster doesn't have the spell, they can buy it on a scroll. A character with Use Magic Device could do the same thing.

See I really don't like the whole "ultimately it derives from casters" angle. I feel like skill should be sufficient in itself. But "+5 for every prerequisite you don't have" just drains all the fun out of it.

I should note I considered using the "level + 2" version of Automatic Bonus Progression, but I worry that's going to mess with any class ability that's intended to interact with the crafting system.


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SilvercatMoonpaw wrote:
Ciaran Barnes wrote:
If your players are into bending and twisting the rules, then it could lead to abuse.
What abuse?

Doing more than what you intended. People are creative so it's hard to list specifics.


If your crafter spends loads of downtown to create 1/2 price magic items for the entire party, and does so using your houserule to ignore normal penalties, that could be a possible abuse. If your players aren't into that kind of thing, this its not something to worry about.

My point is that your houserule is probably fine. The point of Master Craftsman is to reward a character who make magic items without the use of Spellcraft. If your players invests in Craft or Profession to make items, and also invests in Spellcraft to gain pseudo spells then doesn't seem like a bad thing.

You could also split the difference and make it a -2 penalty (instead of -5).


Quote:
Doing more than what you intended. People are creative so it's hard to list specifics.

Yeah, like being able to use wands without UMD, or crafting scrolls from other spell lists.

Skill points are sufficient in itself, you just need more of them to beat the +5DC. Or, one of the first things you craft is a magic item that gives a +5 to your craft skill. Then you buy a wand of Crafter's Fortune to give you another +5.


_Ozy_ wrote:
Yeah, like being able to use wands without UMD, or crafting scrolls from other spell lists.

The intent was to let them have the spells purely to meet prerequisites. You'd still need UMD.

And casters wouldn't get extra spells from Spellcraft.

"What about multi-classing?" Pathfinder's already too complicated, I don't care.

Maybe it'd be easier to force casters to have to craft as if they couldn't cast the spells.


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SilvercatMoonpaw wrote:
_Ozy_ wrote:
Yeah, like being able to use wands without UMD, or crafting scrolls from other spell lists.

The intent was to let them have the spells purely to meet prerequisites. You'd still need UMD.

And casters wouldn't get extra spells from Spellcraft.

"What about multi-classing?" Pathfinder's already too complicated, I don't care.

Maybe it'd be easier to force casters to have to craft as if they count cast the spells.

Changing how skills work based on class sounds like a really bad idea.

Allowing spells to count for crafting, where you actually need to expend a spell, but not for using wands where you just need to know the spell sounds like a good way to get into arguments with players.

It seems like you're creating problems while trying to solve a problem that isn't a real problem.


_Ozy_ wrote:
It seems like you're creating problems while trying to solve a problem that isn't a real problem.

It's a problem for me. I mean if I don't care how the game works why use it?


Questions you need to be able to answer:-
1)What level spell can I take. (Can I take Wish as my choice at 1st level?)
2) What list can I take the spell from (Haste appears at different levels on different lists)
3) Do all the spells have to be from the same list
4)Does this let me count as knowing the spell for the purpose of using wands etc? How about scrolls?
5)Why can't a wizard learn spells for via this means ? Can he learn them just for crafting purposes? What are you going to do when a player gets the 2 lists of spells known mixed up by 'accident;(actually knowing some players it could be an accident)
6) So I can make wands/potions/scrolls using these spells, what Caster level will they have (also if you gave a careless answer to 1 or 2 you just got a world of hurt)
7) If a spell could be divine or arcane which is it?

I think if I actually put some thought into this I could come up with some other questions (say by thinking about it on the bus into work or some other dead time which I would do if playing in this game)

Overall the +5 dc is not a big problem and I think answering those questions to the satisfaction of your players is a bigger one. Also I have never seen a none caster invest in crafting


Rather than applying it by class, roll it in to the Master Craftsman feat! It's a feat tax, so that'd help take the sting out of it. For rank in spellcraft, you write down one spell that you can ignore as a crafting prerequisite. (Possibly every two ranks, depending on where you think the balance should be.)

That particular approach isn't very elegant. I might suggest letting Master Craftsman ignore one spell prerequisite for every four ranks you have in the associated craft/profession skill.

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