Swashbuckler's Precise Strike + Kata Master Monk + Natural Attack = ?

[Lune]

I have a Kitsune character that has levels in Mouser Swashbuckler and Kata Master Monk. He fights with Bite attacks and Unarmed Strikes while in Fox Shape.

Kata Master gets the Penache class ability:

Spoiler:

Panache
At 1st level, a kata master gains the swashbuckler’s panache class ability. At the start of each day, a kata master gains a number of panache points equal to her Charisma bonus (minimum 1). Her panache goes up or down throughout the day, but usually cannot go higher than his Charisma bonus (minimum 1). A kata master gains the swashbuckler’s derring-do and dodging panache deeds. A kata master can use an unarmed strike or monk special weapon in place of a light or one-handed piercing melee weapon for granted swashbuckler class features and deeds.

This ability replaces stunning fist.

Swashbucklers get the Precise Strike Deed as a class ability:

Spoiler:

Precise Strike (Ex): At 3rd level, while she has at least 1 panache point, a swashbuckler gains the ability to strike precisely with a light or one-handed piercing melee weapon (though not natural weapon attacks), adding her swashbuckler level to the damage dealt. To use this deed, a swashbuckler cannot attack with a weapon in her other hand or use a shield other than a buckler. She can even use this ability with thrown light or one-handed piercing melee weapons, so long as the target is within 30 feet of her. Any creature that is immune to sneak attacks is immune to the additional damage granted by precise strike, and any item or ability that protects a creature from critical hits also protects a creature from the additional damage of a precise strike. This additional damage is precision damage, and isn’t multiplied on a critical hit. As a swift action, a swashbuckler can spend 1 panache point to double her precise strike’s damage bonus on the next attack. This benefit must be used before the end of her turn, or it is lost. This deed’s cost cannot be reduced by any ability or effect that reduces the amount of panache points a deed costs (such as the Signature Deed feat).

Monks get a better version of Improved Unarmed Strike that states:

Spoiler:

A monk’s unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.

Technically when the character is Biting and using Unarmed Strikes he isn't necessarily using ANY hand. He can use Precise Strike with any of his attacks. But how many of them can he use it with at once?

[Lune]

Nothing on this? Is this one of those "hands of effort" things or did that get quashed?

[zza ni]

lets break this into parts.

first lets look at a monk with natural attack:
he can flurry but not add his natural attack on the same round or he can not flurry and add his natural attack but count it as secondary attack even if its primary.

so a level 20 monk (not unchained) would ether attack for 15/10/5 unarmed strike and +10 natural attack or flurry for 18/18/13/13/8/8/3 unarmed strike and no natural attack

now if he take feral combat training he can use his natural attack instead one or more of his flurry attacks but not over them.

now your kata master can use his unarmed strike for precise strike (but not his bite. it say so in your post. in the precise strike part). it doesn't effect his number of attacks(unless kata monk get no flurry for trading it . i didn't look it up). so again you can ether flurry and not use bite and all attacks get the precise strike bonus (i don't know if monk level stack for damage on this, again didn't look up kata monk) or attack without a flurry and gain attacks for BAB and secondary natural weapon. ether way the precise strike would only effect the unarmed attack. (need to look into the words of feral combat training. it used to allow for effects that change unarmed to also effect natural attack but some of it was errated )

[Lune]

I'm not concerned about Flurry of Blows. I don't get it on this character. It is actually a Master of Many Styles/Kata Master.

I'm not concerned about using Feral Combat Training. It isn't part of the build or the question. I use Bite and Unarmed Strikes.

[zza ni]

in that case you get your normal attacks as if you attacked with a weapon and natural attacks. and only the unarmed strike would add precise strike damage to it. and again might only use swashbuckler levels, im not sure.

so a bab +8 say (for 3 swash and 7 monk levels) would atack for +8/+3 unarmed and +3 bite (half str for damage)

[Lune]

Hm. Well, I know how many attacks I get. That wasn't in question. But you do bring up a good point that I hadn't considered. Do Kata Master Monk levels count towards Swashbuckler levels for determining the power of Deeds?

I think you are right about which attacks the Precise Strike can apply to, though. It should be all except the Bite.

Alright. Well, that is what I'm going with unless someone points out something else that might be wrong with that.

edit: Hm. Actually, follow up question. What about if I use Two-Weapon Fighting? I forgot to mention that. Instead of Flurry of Blows this character has Two-Weapon Fighting that he uses with Unarmed Strikes. Does that sour the whole thing?

[Saethori]

I notice a problem with this so far; Kata Master specifically states:

Kata Master wrote:

A kata master can use an unarmed strike or monk special weapon in place of a light or one-handed piercing melee weapon for granted swashbuckler class features and deeds.

Precise Strike isn't a feature granted by Kata Master, and that one word significantly changes how many things you can use unarmed strikes for.

If you want to continue to use unarmed strikes, I suggest getting the Hamatulatsu feat, which turns your unarmed strikes into piercing attacks, thus allowing you to use them for Swashbuckler abilities.

[Lune]

Saethori: I can assure you that it works.

It doesn't say, "granted Kata Master class features and deeds". It says "granted Swashbuckler class features and deeds." That includes things like Swashbuckler's Finesse, Penache and other classs features and deeds. I'm not sure how else they could have put it to mean that.

[Imbicatus]

Also, while a bite is not a weapon in your hand, it is another weapon and it's clearly against the intent of the ability to use any other weapon than the primary weapon with precise strike. Be prepared for table variation on if this is allowed.

[Lune]

Imbicatus: So it is a hands of effort thing?

[Darksol the Painbringer]

Lune wrote:

Imbicatus: So it is a hands of effort thing?

Nope, let's break it down.

Kata Master: Gives you the Panache feature, and treats your Unarmed Strikes as a light/one-handed piercing weapon for Swashbuckler features and deeds. Pretty straight-forward, and fairly obvious.

Precise Strike: This is where things get tricky. The big restriction is that Precise Strike only applies if you're not making attacks with a weapon in another hand or using a buckler, which you easily qualify for. The problem is that there is a specific clause that states natural weapons do not count as Light/One-Handed Weapons for the purposes of utilizing the deed. To quote:

Precise Strike wrote:

...a swashbuckler gains the ability to strike precisely with a light or one-handed piercing melee weapon (though not natural weapon attacks)...

Which means, even if you find some way to make your Bite count as a Light/One-handed Piercing Weapon (which it already counts as a Light Piercing Weapon), it won't apply to your bite, because Precise Strike precludes any form of natural weapons. Your Unarmed Strikes should be good though, thanks to Kata Master.

Unarmed Strike: While helpful, it's pointless to reference in this case, because Kata Master already gave you the O.K. in regards to Precise Strike, and on a better note, I might add.

So, what can you do to make your Bite more relevant? Not much, really. You can take Dragon Ferocity and pick up Feral Combat Training, but that's a lot of feats for just your Bite Attack (though 1.5x Strength on all Unarmed Strikes is certainly worthwhile). Maybe Ascetic Style to give yourself another loophole avenue to work around, but again, tons of feats for little benefit (and that's assuming GMs don't rule the broken Ascetic Style ruling).

[Byakko]

Yep, the above people have got the right of it. You won't be able to apply Precise Strike to the bite attack due to the exclusionary clause written into the ability.

Additionally, I believe that if you try to use TWF with unarmed attacks, the attacks made with your offhand will conflict with the "a swashbuckler cannot attack with a weapon in her other hand" clause, even if the unarmed strikes are made with some other body part ("hands of effort" rules, etc).

(while the above wasn't specifically asked about, it's a likely path for someone doing this to consider)

[Lune]

Darksol the Painbringer: Ok. That is pretty much how I had it figured. No worries about making the Bite do more damage. I already have an Agile AoMF and next level will be my 5th level of Unarmed Fighter and I will have enough to get Gloves of Dueling. The loss of Precise Strike on the Bite attack, while definitely noticed, is relatively minor.

Byakko: That is what I was concerned about with TWF. While I disagree with it both on principle and RAW I can at least see where someone would come to that interpretation based on the whole "hands of effort" thing. I hate the "hands of effort" thing. IMO it muddied the waters more than they already were.

[James Risner]

Hands of effort comes down to 2 armed humans only have 2 hands so you can't use handless weapons to get around the hands issue.