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There is no weight to the stories because we know that Steve will somehow come back around, that X or Y won't stay dead, that so and so probably won't stay good/evil, and so on.
I do not agree completely with this sentiment. For example, knowing that johnny Storm would make it back, did'nt diminish the story around his death in anyway, and the story where he died (and the wordless grieving issue after were some of the most powerful stories I ever read.
Same with the Spidey/Doc Ock storyline. I hated it at the beginning very much, but in the end, it was great storytelling. The Death of Wolverine and how they still didn't bring him back is just awesome (ok it helps that Laura is more badass than Logan ever was :D). Same with Batman's death over at DC and I could probably cite some more storylines where someone died and the story was still great even if we know that was only temporary.
What I don't like, though, is something like Marvel playing with this topos as when they announced that every half a year, they would plan to let someone die. Because then, it has obviously nothing to do with storytelling, even when some of those stories still turn out to be great.
That said, my main problem with the end of SE is very much that they just gloss over the events instead of using their time to really play them out. Events are more reported than shown, so there is no immediacy to the tale. I liked that kind of storyline over the course of SE very much, but as far as the last issue is concerned, I found it lacking.
Still liked how they defeated Hydra-Steve just when he thought he had achieved ultimate victory.
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Same with the Spidey/Doc Ock storyline. I hated it at the beginning very much, but in the end, it was great storytelling.
On that tangent, I do love it when a comic book introduces an idea, and I hate, hate, hate it, and then the writer makes me eat that tasty crow.
Me: "Octavius in Parker's body? Dumb!"
Me, later: "What a great story! It both humanized Otto a bit, and reminded us how important Peter was as Spider-Man (by showing us a world where someone else was Spider-Man)!"
Me: "Bucky is still alive? What a stupid idea!"
Me, later: "That was awesome! I love this Winter Soldier concept!"
Me: "A She-Hulk, She-Wolverine, She-Deathstroke? Ugh! I hate those sorts of characters!"
Me, later: "I like She-Hulk, X-23 and Ravager better than He-Hulk, Wolverine or Deathstroke..."
There's lots of ideas that I hate that *don't* turn out to be well-written enough in the execution to turn me around, but when that happens, it's always fun.
The best part about being a cynical pessimist is that when I'm wrong, it's generally good news!
(Or a total failure of imagination on my part as to how awful things could get...)
Honestly, I think both Dane Whitman and Faiza are better swordspeople than Swordsman at times. But eh.
In any case I agree with Wormy that some of SE got glossed over WAY too much at times. I'm glad it's over...but maybe now it's time to move on to other things.
Which is what I wonder about this thread's future...
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Problem with the Swordsman (and often similar melee weapon masters) in comics is that he rarely actually came off as a great swordsman, more like a guy with an impressively gimmicked sword - which really could have been any item. He spent more of his time zapping people with it than actually sword fighting.
At least with a bow, you're shooting arrows, even if they're gimmicked arrows.I think the writers had to do that at the time, because they could not show him hitting a person with the sword.The Black Knight had the same problem, but he had a reason with the blood Curse of the ebony blade.
And in the 90s he switched to an energy blade, that could be switched to stun.I think the only one, who used a sword against people, was Katana at DC. But it was not really shown. She just had to clean her sword a lot^^
Wonder Woman does a lot of Sword and shield these days. Ok she's fist and lasso against human enemies but when she needs to go all out she goes full Greek warrior goddess mode.
So....what do we think guys? Is this thread done or should we continue even though SE is basically over?
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So what's the next big thingie? Legacy? Wouldn't mind having a new thread for that and let this one peter out on his own pace.
This said, I care more about the conversation we're having here than about the title of the thread, so my only argument for a new thread would be that the title might keep potential readers from doing so after the end of the event.
Jeff,
Well if we do then I'd suggest you be the one to 'operate it' cause I'm pretty much done now.
Wormy,
Yeah now that we've gone through the last event that we know about, it's kind of a good idea to maybe try a new thread. At least in my mind.
Thomas Seitz
I want to thank you for your awesome summaries of the events of Secret Empire. Sadly, I have cut off pretty much all of my Marvel subscriptions with the exception of Mighty Thor, so I can follow the story of Jane/Thor and Odinson. I have gotten tired of the "massive crossover event so that everyone has to buy a bunch of extra comics" routine that has settled into regularity with Marvel and the PR pandering that I'm hoping has slowed down now. I was very puzzled with the choice of Volstagg as the War Thor, but I wrote it off as Jason Aaron's way of placating the fans that want a "guy Thor". I hope that the Original Thor will be reclaiming Original Mjolnir soon, but I hope that Jane Foster sticks around for a little while.
Thomas Seitz
I want to thank you for your awesome summaries of the events of Secret Empire. Sadly, I have cut off pretty much all of my Marvel subscriptions with the exception of Mighty Thor, so I can follow the story of Jane/Thor and Odinson. I have gotten tired of the "massive crossover event so that everyone has to buy a bunch of extra comics" routine that has settled into regularity with Marvel and the PR pandering that I'm hoping has slowed down now. I was very puzzled with the choice of Volstagg as the War Thor, but I wrote it off as Jason Aaron's way of placating the fans that want a "guy Thor". I hope that the Original Thor will be reclaiming Original Mjolnir soon, but I hope that Jane Foster sticks around for a little while.
The War Thor is awesome both as an opponent for Thor and as a contrast to the normal Volstagg. Jason isn't placating anyone. It's getting more and more obvious that there's a plan here and it all ties together, back to the start of his run.
Sadly, I suspect it is coming to an end soon with "The Death of the Mighty Thor".
I'll have to catch up!
I'm more suspecting that War-Thor is just Jason's way of showcasing a Thor devoid of more...positive human emotions. The War Thor is scarred and traumatized by what he saw. In this, his hammer is the same, having survived the Incursions and of course Secret Wars.
As for Jane, I'm fully expecting Jason Aaron to give Jane a positive send off before Thor Odinson returns to his former glory.
I'm more suspecting that War-Thor is just Jason's way of showcasing a Thor devoid of more...positive human emotions. The War Thor is scarred and traumatized by what he saw. In this, his hammer is the same, having survived the Incursions and of course Secret Wars.
As for Jane, I'm fully expecting Jason Aaron to give Jane a positive send off before Thor Odinson returns to his former glory.
Of course, if Jason Aaron flips it around and kills off OG Thor and keeps Jane around, things could get bad.
If he keeps the War-Thor then we'll have some happy people. At least for a while.
I'm still kind of puzzled by his use of Volstagg as the War Thor. Volstagg was no stranger to war. He and the Warriors Three had sagas of battles won and the adventures they've shared. Volstagg being a family man, would fight to protect his loved ones. He's seen countless battles. Why would this particular battle drive him to this state of mind?
On another note, what happened with the Hercules solo series? One minute he was fighting to modernize his reputation while helping Gilgamesh through a depression, then they dipped into the "American Gods" territory with him facing "Modern Gods", then the series disappeared. I've always like Hercules, especially the times he and Thor teamed up to Godpunch some big baddie. Did they merge his book with the big, crossover event and phase it out?
Jeff,
Exactly. This is the difference between a veteran warrior in battle and a guy that's seen war but now witnesses its atrocities.
Beard,
Hercules' series was a short run to due to lack of sales. So they folded it. Now if you want to see the Lion of Greece, you'll have to read Avengers.
Jeff,
Exactly. This is the difference between a veteran warrior in battle and a guy that's seen war but now witnesses its atrocities.
Beard,
Hercules' series was a short run to due to lack of sales. So they folded it. Now if you want to see the Lion of Greece, you'll have to read Avengers.
Gotcha
The War Thor is No More! Could this culling of the knockoffs mean the final departure of the Replacements?
Beard,
I'm not sure "No More" merely "Odinson sent Ultimate Mjolnir packing". It might return IF it decides to get some more exercise.
I doubt it. War Thor was clearly going to come into play BECAUSE of the War of the Realms. That's not changed an iota even WITH Jane Foster helping.
I meant that the appearance of the War-Thor wasn't linked to Legacy any more than the upcoming Death of Thor (Jane Foster) is.
I just want the Original Thor back with the Original Mjolnir. Maybe, Jane takes up the War-Mjolnir?
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I'm with Jeff, he's got the best Thor beard since...maybe the 90s?
But as for Jane Foster, I'm with Jeff also in that I think Jane Foster will join the ranks of Uncle Ben and possibly Captain Mar-Vell.
Well no one WANTS her to die. (Mostly because she was the most sensible significant other of Blake/Thor's life) But also it seems like cancer usually wins. (I mean it did against Captain Mar-vell!)
Maybe she merges with Mjolnir? Mjanenir?
Maybe but which one is kind of the question...
So, it appears Volstagg/War Thor is going to be the first to throwdown with Mangog. Though, I have misgivings. OG Thor has fought Mangog on a number of occasions, not that Jason Aaron gives a rat's @$$ about continuity, and beaten him/whatever-it-is. I don't see why he shouldn't be able to do so again.
Beard,
Jason Aaron has a better sense of continuity than some writers I know. Also I think War Thor might find fighting the Mangog a tough task since it feeds on hatred...and there's a war going on.
I don't like that Aaron recycles old/used characters/monsters/story points and acts like what he's done is original. Mangog, been around for decades. Jane Foster as Thor, they What If-ed that back in the 80's. Gorr the Godbutcher, I raise you one Desak the Godslayer from early 2000's. Volstagg becoming a War Mad Thunder God, Thor suffered from Warriors Madness back in the early 90's. His abortion of an Origin story for Mjolnir was the only original thing he's done, and it was just a rant about Male Chauvinism and Female Oppression. Which really doesn't mesh with continuity At All. Mjolnir has been broken and reforged at least a half a dozen times. Now, he's saying there's been a female primordial storm elemental inside the whole time? I know he's leaning into the Female Empowerment Agenda, but he couldn't have been a bit more creative? I'm trying to give this it's due time. I'm trying to be more open minded and try to see past the poor storytelling, but I really just want this to be over. In the most recent issue, they showed a new Thor with a golden arm and a golden Mjolnir. I seriously hope it doesn't come to that. I hope things don't end with Jane going the way of Uncle Ben. She deserves better than to just let the Cancer take her. Maybe she dies heroically slaying Malekith and she earns a place in Valhalla where Thor can visit her whenever he wants? I'm going to go back and actually read the recent Mighty Jane Thor comics to get caught up. I saw that Thor has expressed that he Does want his hammer back, but has he tried lifting Original Mjolnir when Jane puts it down?
I don't have a problem bringing back villains and characters... but yeah, Almost everything done with Mjolnir was directly contradicted by previous continuity and that always bugs me.
And I don't want to sound like a Trump, gods forbid. It's rankled me since the beginning when they decided to replace Thor with a woman in the first place. Then, the fact that they first announced the change on The View, it screamed of pandering. Jason Aaron had originally claimed that this replacement was "permanent". Now, we know it was just a story arc. As I have stated prior, if they had brought one of Thor's granddaughters from the far future and passed the hammer to her, it would have been WAY more preferable to a cancer-ridden Jane Foster. That would have been a real Legacy situation. I would have enjoyed that. Legacy is a big deal to me, personally. If Jason Aaron had been a bit better at handling the early criticism and been a bit more inventive, this may never have been an issue. I don't see why we cant have the Original Thor back, with both arms, with Original Mjolnir, much wiser than before.
Thomas,
Whatever happened to Red Norvell? They showed him in the spread page back when Thor "died" after thwarting "those who sit in Shadow", but his whereabouts have yet to be addressed. He had an awesome Red Thor Beard.
I don't have a problem bringing back villains and characters... but yeah, Almost everything done with Mjolnir was directly contradicted by previous continuity and that always bugs me.
What frustrates me the most is that he rehashes these things and acts like what he has done is praiseworthy. It's not Original! If you want to make a big deal out of the New Female Thor, do something Original. Stop riding the Original Thor's coattails.
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I don't have a problem bringing back villains and characters... but yeah, Almost everything done with Mjolnir was directly contradicted by previous continuity and that always bugs me.What frustrates me the most is that he rehashes these things and acts like what he has done is praiseworthy. It's not Original! If you want to make a big deal out of the New Female Thor, do something Original. Stop riding the Original Thor's coattails.
Honestly I found the Jane story to be generally weak. Replacing Thor is fine... Replacing him with a woman is also fine... but this???
I LOVED the Eric Masterson Years (and he was only Thor for 2 years This seems to be dragging on forever). It was a story about a mortal gaining the powers of Thor. He had the hammer. He had the strength, He had the power... but not the experience or the skill or the confidence to use them. He was still at his heart and soul a mortal despite his overwhelming power. THAT was an engaging story. If you're going to give a mortal that power... you have to be able to connect with the mortal side... and the cancer story didn't cut it.
Jane? They went right off the rails when the whole story was 'Guess who the new Thor is???,' by focusing entirely on the god form. Too much Asgard, not enough Jane. Also she was TOO epic right out the gate. She goes toe to toe with Odin when original Thor never could?
It also didn't help that 'odinson' was still wandering around like a wounded puppy. Masterson was all aobut honoring the name of Thor and doing his best until he could get the real thor back... while Jane (whetehr intentional or not) seemed to be flaunting that she was worthy and he wasn't...
The whole thing just feels... meh to me.
I guess I'm the only Jane Foster Thor guy on this thread...
As for Norville, he died fighting Jormungand last I checked. He hasn't been back since.
Also while I do recognize that Desak is a slayer of Gods (there's plenty of them besides Desak) Gorr's difference is pretty clear: he got a divine weapon that can KILL things that generally don't get killed. First it was all the alien gods (past, present and future), then later on it killed Galactus. (And not just some Galactus but OLD Galactus. Like ready to eat more as the world ends). Now it's Ego the Necroworld.
All I'm saying is while I know Desak was kind of a bad ass (Believe me I've followed Thor since 1985 dude), he didn't really a hold a candle to what Gorr did. Desak killed because it was his way of keeping his people alive. Gorr did it because he enjoyed it.
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I guess I'm the only Jane Foster Thor guy on this thread...
Just chiming in to have your back. I'm loving the Jane Foster-as-Thor storyline, although I will also admit that I'm a cheap date when it comes to beautiful art, and this book's art has really knocked me over.
I have disliked other versions of Thor in the past, such as Red Norvill, or Beta Ray Bill, or Eric Masterson, or that damned frog everybody else seems to love. But I'm really loving Jane's story.
Perhaps there's something about going into it knowing that she's got an expiration date ('cause, yanno, cancer, which is one of those rare things in the Marvel Universe that can actually kill superheroes permanently, if Mar-Vell is any indication), unlike Beta Ray Bill or Throg, both of whom had storylines, those storylines ended, and yet they still appear intermittently, like something you find three years later in the back of the fridge and can no longer remember why you bought in the first place.
There's been a lot of interesting discussion on the intertubes about where Aaron is taking this story.
For awhile, I liked the theory that Fury's mysterious whisper wasn't to Thor, he was actually telling Mjolnir something that 'woke it up' and let it know that it could choose it's wielder, and it chose someone who couldn't tame it, and would instead A) be utterly dependent on it, because without it she was both powerless and dying, B) subject to it's desires (which seems proven by all the times Mjolnir shows up and drags Jane off to play Thor, as if *the hammer is in charge*). Mjolnir has always been Thor's tool, and even with it's newfound personality, I don't think it would ever be able to jerk the Odinson around as readily as it does Jane, who it's basically in the process of both holding hostage, and killing (as it undoes her chemo treatments).
Now that we know what the whisper was, there's the interesting twist of Gorr being all about gods, and yet it's not being a *god* that makes Thor special. If it was all about being a god, then Thor would be no more special than the *thousands* of other Asgardians, Olympians, Heliopolitans, Aztec gods, African gods, Chinese gods, Slavic gods, etc., etc. Clearly Thor *is* special, but it's not just 'being a god' that makes him special. It's not a magic hammer, either. IMO, it's that, *despite* being a god, and *despite* Odin chastising him for not being exclusively focused on Asgard# and all things Asgardian, he spends time on earth *being a hero.*
(#A fine example being in the very first moment that Thor gives up on picking up Mjolnir and heads off, telling Odin that he's going 'home.' Odin assumes this means Asgard. But no, he stopped to grab an axe from the armory, and then went *home.* Which was Earth.)
IMO, that's what has always made him 'worthy' of admiration. Not that he's Thor. Not that he's the son of Odin. Not that he's one of endless numbers of (as Gorr would say, utterly meaningless parasitical and selfish) 'gods.' That he's rejected sitting up in Asgard and being all that, and instead come to earth to fight and protect mortal men, becoming a hero, and not just some distant uncaring god, is kind of the big difference between Thor and, say, Demeter, or Anubis, or Amateresu, or Quetzalcoutl.
I have no idea where exactly Aaron is going with the story, but I've enjoyed the ride so far.
Because it's sold so well, I kind of feel like they are going to chicken out and *not* kill Jane at the end of the story. Maybe she'll die a warrior's death and come back as a Valkyrie or something. I mean, *obviously* Thor's going to get his hammer back. This is Marvel. They can't get Xavier out of his wheelchair, or Cyclops to take off his visor, for more than a week without some new contrivance putting them right back into their iconic wheelchair or whatever.
Plus, even if Marvel's marketing department didn't mandate that the Thor IP being a dude with a hammer, and the company wasn't pants-wettingly-terrified of lasting change, we've seen the Thor of the future, multiple times, and he's got Mjolnir. Not Jarnbjorn. Not Gungnir. Not the Odinsword. Not a phased-plasma rifle in the 40 watt range. Mjolnir. :)
He can still have Odinsword/Twilight Sword. ;) But thanks Set.
Jeff,
Exactly. The mind set is completely different betweeen Desak and Gorr. While they are both killers, one is more you "hit man" while the other is clear a psychopath.
Last time we saw Norvell was right after OG Thor "died" fighting Onslaught in the 90's. He was the stand-in Thor during the Journey Into Mystery reboot/filler until they brought Thor back during the entire Marvel overhaul. Norvell disappeared with all of the Asgardians but didn't reappear with the rest. I don't really understand Aaron's reasoning with the Worthy/Unworthy mechanic. What I took away from the Unworthy Thor short story arc was that OG Thor wasn't Unworthy at all, he just doubted himself. I liked that during the Unworthy Thor arc, he regained his desire to reclaim the hammer. It also showed that while he was capable of tapping into the powers of the Other Mjolnir and could most likely lift it, he chose not to. So, was OG Thor truly Unworthy? or was this just Aaron's way of taking the hammer from OG Thor and giving it to Jane? Aaron had originally stated that this replacement was permanent. But, now that we know it isn't, what was the point? Was it a way for Marvel to showcase forced diversity for a short while? Was it supposed to "humble" Thor? If so, it was totally unnecessary. Fury did exclaim before the infamous Whisper, that Thor should, "learn from this, and grow from it." So, after everything Thor has been through recently, dieing and coming back, (twice recently), fighting the God of Fear, challenging Odin face to face, uniting his Past, Present and Future selves to defeat the Godbutcher, (which no other god could do, apparently), leading the Aesir and Vanir hosts to stem the Everything Burns legions of Surtur, and that's only some of the recent accomplishments. You're really going to tell me that Thor needs another lesson in Humility?
But, the concept behind both Gorr and Desak was the same. Both killed gods because they believed them to be unworthy. The only difference was that Thor was able to earn Desak's respect for a short time. The "Godkiller Who Kills Gods Because He Thinks Them Unworthy" is the same.