1. Again, "diverse" characters can sell and do sell, but "diversity" is not a commodity (nor it should be imo). Few people buy characters JUST because they are part of minorities, and I believe it's fair to say a lot of those who support a character just because he's part of a minority do so following some sort of political agenda and don't really care for the character besides its use as a promotional tool of sorts for their own causes.
When I was (much) younger I learned to love Storm, she was my favoured female superhero by far, I didn't care one bit for her skin tone, she was just great and I distinctly remember myself feeling very happy when she took Cyclop's poistion as the leader of the X-Men despite being depowered at the time. Years later Marvel gave her a series. I bought the first issue because I always liked Storm (granted, the Storm I loved was Claremont's version and later versions were a bit lacking imo) but I found it terrible and I dropped the series.
2. Different tastes exist. For example during the recent Secret Wars event I absolutely adored the Master of Kung Fu and 1872 series but they didn't sell very well. I consider them good comic books but I also know there were several factors at work there (btw I'm curious how they did as tpbs).
Personally I LOATHE Bendis as I find him to use far too many cheap marketing ploys in order to boost sales and I question his ability to not be disruptive in a shared universe since he willingly ignores continuity and previous characterizations (he's decent with street level heroes and single protagonist books, I'll give him that), but I can't deny his tactics often work and his comics generally sell well.
All this to say that, yes, it's complicated and yes, sometimes quality isn't enough. But I find that more often than not quality sells.
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
1. Again, "diverse" characters can sell and do sell, but "diversity" is not a commodity (nor it should be imo). Few people buy characters JUST because they are part of minorities, and I believe it's fair to say a lot of those who support a character just because he's part of a minority do so following some sort of political agenda and don't really care for the character besides its use as a promotional tool of sorts for their own causes.
Or they buy them because they are happy that they finally have a hero to represent themselves, hypothetical "agendas" be damned.
Okay this is MY thread. I started it. So if you want to argue about diversity and it's effects on Marvel comic sales, that's another thread. I don't MIND talking about it. I encourage it. But every time I see it in a comic thread, it ends up derailing crap.
I'm on the side of MORE diversity just so we're clear. Falcap was/is good.
As for Captain Marvel, she was selling better BEFORE Secret Wars. Afterwards did see a decline but I attribute that to the writers that came after Kelly Sue DeConnick. But that's my opinion.
Chris,
As pointed out previously, Angela's solo comic story made it so that Hela lost control over Hel. Now with Thanos, she's seeking to take Hel back from the current ruler, Baldur.
So...anything else? Okay? No? Good.
For some reason they keep wanting to put Captain Marvel on the "crush freedom" side of their big events. It's always bothered me cause I liked her when she was Binary in X-men, she never struck me as such a hard liner back then
although thinking on it I guess that was because of the amnesia she had back then.
|
Diversity alone doesn't sell comics in a sizeable way. In order to sell comics that will be successful and can support themselves you need good storytelling and good art.
Problem is, that while I would agree that Marvel's flagship titles have seen better times and that especially the recent crossover events have been a bit lackluster, there are quite some comics that promote diversity via their protagonists that are actually very, very good. But those are not the books about the Big Guns (notable exception: Mighty Thor), meaning that those kinds of books always struggled regarding sales numbers and always will.
Because in reality, people will rather read a Spider-Man comic that sucks than a Black Panther comics which is positively awesome.
What I really think hurts sales more than anything is this high-speed sequence of big crossover events combined with a constant renumbering of their titles and changing the writers and artists. It's simply too much, especially if you are a bit of a completionist. I mean, from the RessurXion announcements alone, I count 8 new X-men related series, and that's not counting All-New Wolverine, Old Man Logan or any other comic that might have X-men characters in it, like the Champions. Same goes for the INhumans or the Avengers. So I think that they really need to distill their lines into something more concentrated if they want to get higher sales numbers.
To get back to the original topic that's also kinda my problem with the Secret Empire event. We can already bet that some of the current marvel series won't survive the event, that there will be series restarting with new #1 issues (and probably different writers and artists). And as usual the comcis that don't make the cut will probably be the ones that I like most. And in the meantime, Amazing Spider-Man, which is constantly written by Dan Slott for nearly 7 years now, will probably stay their most succesful comic, while the others will struggle to get at least 50.000 issues sold.
For some reason they keep wanting to put Captain Marvel on the "crush freedom" side of their big events.
Probably trying to cater to those folks that don't like Cap Sam Wilson at all. It's what happens when you start to get into politics with your comics (and it adds to the continuing splintering of your fanbase).
Really hope that Secret Empire will put an end to this, because as much as I like if comics don't ignore what's happening in the world, I don't think that it helps any of those issues if the different sides of the discussion start to read certain comics while avoiding others according to their political views.
Diversity and identity politics aren't the reason why Marvel comics aren't selling that well. Fact is with the pop culture statured and super competitive world we live in you need to really market the hell out your product to distract potential customers to not spend their money elsewhere on video games, movies or Netflix's. Which is why companies don't usually take risks on new characters. Why do that and risk a ridiculous amount of money promoting Miles Morales or Ironheart when you can keep publishing stories about Peter Parker or Tony Stark who are already recognized by the public for dirt cheap?
Maybe if Marvel Comics had the same marketing budget as Marvel Studios that would change but until than...
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Maybe if Marvel Comics had the same marketing budget as Marvel Studios that would change but until than...
It's been happening for a while now, but Marvel Comics pretty much *is* barely more than marketing for the movies, at this point (or, at best, a vanity press sort of deal, clinging to memories of a heyday that's never ever coming back, as entertainment / media has changed).
If they want to succeed like they have in the past, they need to sell comics in areas that don't have the internet.
So, like, Antarctica. Or Mars.
They really need to find a way into that juicy North Korean market.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Its not diversity that does not sell comics. Its when its forced diversity. Msrvel wrnt from having none to almost every title imo. If they slowly introduced it at a gradual pace it may have gone over much better. Instead it just felt like they were trying to cater to one segment of the fanbase.
Not to mention imo those who are very vocal about diversity usually don't buy comics. They want Marvel or another comic company to introduce diversity. They when they get what they want. Then don't support the product. Even if every c comic is the most diversified as possible.
Sort of like the person complaining about people using too many plastic bags. Yet refuses ro buy recyclable bags because they cost too much.
For me i hope the new story arcs fix the X-titles. They have suffered with Marvel prioritizing the Inhumans.
Maybe if Marvel Comics had the same marketing budget as Marvel Studios that would change but until than...It's been happening for a while now, but Marvel Comics pretty much *is* barely more than marketing for the movies, at this point (or, at best, a vanity press sort of deal, clinging to memories of a heyday that's never ever coming back, as entertainment / media has changed).
If they want to succeed like they have in the past, they need to sell comics in areas that don't have the internet.
So, like, Antarctica. Or Mars.
Mmmmh....
The "past" being one year ago when they were dominating the market with Secret Wars?
Yes, editorial pushing for more DCU changes isn't helping the comics to sell more and is nonsensical but the reason why Marvel is failing now is not because they are competing with different forms of entertainment.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Okay seriously, am I talking to myself? Cause if I am I'll go sit in corner now...
I asked POLITELY I thought. Can we PLEASE drop this topic since it's not actually ON topic!
Please? With sugar on it?
How exactly did they convince Magneto to side with Hydra. It dosen't make sense to me, the guy hates them.
Grey,
Just because he's on the cover doesn't mean he's actually joining HYDRA.
At least...I hope not.
Memorax,
It KIND of made sense but now it seems she'll be more anti-hero in Secret Empire due to the fact she'll get her own mutant reservation.
How? No freaking clue!
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Full disclosure, Marvel has not been a part of my pull list since Spider-man sold his marriage to the devil. I pop in now and then to keep track of how things are going but nothing they have done has really grabbed me and said "You must read this story". It's largely "WTF are you doing now"
and that is what I am looking at with this Secret Empire thing. A giant "WTF are you guys doing?"
Ms. Marvel in Champions kind of said it for me "why aren't we just helping people who need it" There is a lot of Heroes punching each other and not enough just Fixing things that need fixing.
|
|
I would like to know as well. then knowing Marvel it's going to make as much sense as Emma Frost turning villain over the death of Cyclops.
Well I actually think that made a lot of sense, because obviously, Cyke had been the most important anchor in her life for the last few years (much more important than her students ever were to her).
|
|
Im going to have to disagree with you Wormy. As i said her students were both tortured and in some cases murdered yet no villain turn. Which would have made more sense imo. Marvel wanted her as the new Magneto and by hook and crook and despite two decades of character development. She was going to be a villain. Or anti-hero even if the character would be sad but not go to the dark side over Cyclops death.
I really hope Magneto on the cover is just a variant. Or not if he joins Hydra it's mind control or as a double agent for the good guys. Then agsin Marvel seems to be on the shock or should I say shlock value train. Instead of telling good stories trying to hard to use the "wow" factor.
Memorax,
I think your second idea might be in the works but I don't think he'll actually sign on to be a follower of Hydra. Especially since it's pretty evident that Hydra will be persecuting mutants just as much as regular humans.
I agree with Wormy that it makes sense. But I also agree with Memorax that it DOESN'T make sense.
Grey,
It's okay to have strayed. I came back to Marvel mostly because of the Cosmic side. I still hope to see that side again but some of the past stuff has been good. Secret Empire can't be worse than CWI and CWII. But we'll see.
|
|
I really hope Magneto on the cover is just a variant. Or not if he joins Hydra it's mind control or as a double agent for the good guys.
Well, variant covers haven't necessarily to do with the actual plot. Apart from that, it seems that they plan Magneto to be kind of a mentor of the original X-Men in X-Men Blue, and it would be really lame if they screwed with that by making him a Hydra agent.
Wormy,
That would be pretty lame, no question.
So!! Into the prelude for Secret Empire we go!
So the Unity Squad beat up Red Skull, took his psychic power (Charles is happy) and let SHIELD take him. Course Rogue made sure no one could use that brain matter (thanks Johnny!) Which then leads us to...
Captain America: Steve Rogers #15. Wow. That was a brutal, brutal beat down by Rogers. But the planning, the precision of it was pretty awesome. I still dunno if the way the story is going is that because of the Cosmic Cube, we get the "correct' version of history but apparently that's where it's going! F... Anyways! I'm still confused as to why Sin and Crossbones when along with it...but I guess since they figured Zemo is a better leader than dad. Maybe? I dunno.
NON-Secret Empire stuff!
Avengers...got very timey-whimey but at least they resolved some of Kang's plans. Maybe. I dunno.
Royals! Inhumans in space! Also Marvel Boy is apparently using his proto-Supreme Intelligence to make a new one while they go look for...
Terrigen? Maybe?! I dunno.
America #2 was WAY more solid than #1. It had plot! It had characters I cared about! It had robots and nazi punching! Peggy Carter! So yeah. I was stoked.
Everything else was either meh or not worth looking deeply into.
So...let me know what you all think!
So my understanding of America is that she Punches things and they get teleported. Can she just send them along the Sapce axis or can she do Time too. Cause being able to literally punch someone into next week would be cool
Grey,
Before she could just punch her way across space and thus into other dimensions. NOW she can punch back time. Not sure about forward yet. But it's possible!
Also almost forgot! Jessica and Luke aren't getting a divorce but they are going to be separated while Luke works out his feelings. I think.
We'll see.
Oh! Almost forgot! Preview for Issue #1 of Secret Empire is out. I have a theory due to a cover and the conversation IN said preview!
If I had to guess I'm guessing our new Madame Hydra is some how involved in this resurrection.
So...whadda think?
Alright so this week in comics from Marvel!
Secret Empire stuff!
Captain America - Sam Wilson:
So as we all figured Sam Wilson has dropped Captain America from his repertoire. Plus apparently abandoned Misty (BOO!) Good news is that Rage isn't dead. (Too bad Jack Flag can't say the same thing...) But it does look like Hydracap had planned to take Sam out of the equation as best he could with the help of media and others. Hail Hydra folks.
So that's it for Secret Empire lead ins so far. Now on to greater or lesser titles! (Depends on your PoV I suppose.)
The last runs of two different comics, Power man and Iron Fist ended with...magic? Well maybe. But magic was involved. It wasn't clear how it ended but it ended. I guess we'll see if Heroes of Hire returns. If nothing else, I liked the history of magic stuff. Kind of. Still unclear if they redeemed Alex Wilder or not. I do know more Tomstone isn't far off.
Guardians of the Galaxy was pretty awesome. Thanos shows up, everyone freaks out but the Guardians and their old allies (especially Angela, HOLY SHIZZLE!) prove they can kick butt. So there's that. Off world they go! Thank goodness.
Spider man stuff; Spidey is going to start a international incident, Norman Osborn is running an international cartel out of Silver Sable's homeland, and yeah...it's pretty all over the place. Other than the fact Otto is keeping tabs and waiting for the right time.
Spider OTHER time line, sees us visit a version of the X-men we don't often see, happy! Well happier than now anyway... Plus Prof X is alive....so there's that.
Other things to note: Silver Surfer owes Eternity a hand shake for giving him his lady love back.
Kingpin is getting pretty antsy about Daredevil.
Old man Logan bounces through his own time line pretty straightly. I mean going from 1812 to 1967 is pretty huge...
Okay Nadia Pym clearly has more going for her than her dad's smarts and her own innate optimism. She just flat out DESTROYED two of the Grapplers by herself. That's not a light weight folks, that's some serious pwnage.
Young X-men are obviously not the 1960s X-men but they certainly do have the baggage. Plus you know, Beast is a Sorcerer in training. Also Magneto is apparently willing to do what Prof X did. Oh and Ultimate Wolverine's Son is now in Marvel 616/Prime. :0
Plus Weapon X arrives with killer androids that don't smell. Who knew?
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Not sure if it was meant to be an April fools joke or not but apparently Marvel is blaming their recent sales slup on readers not wanting diversity in their comics.
and here is me thinking, "dosen't this slump match up about the time you turned Cap into a Nazi. Couldn't possibly be people got pissed over that could it?"
Aside from the fact that's not exactly what the head of sales at Marvel said but rather an exaggeration from Bleeding Cool to bait click viewers, Hydra Cap is selling very well afaik and the same can be said for Jane Thor.
The same cannot be said for other series like Captain Marvel (which Marvel would love to turn into their flagship heroine for some reason and keep relaunching failure after failure...) though.That said I think Marvel has done things in a mostly horrible way since the end of Secret Wars. Killing and replacing most of their flagship characters and using diversity as a selling point. Problem is diversity is not a selling point. People don't normally buy comics because the titular character is part of a minority or another.
PEOPLE BUY COMICS FOR GOOD STORIES (and good art) and Marvel has not been producing much of those lately and especially with its new titles. Things like CWII were really bad and appeared to be pointless for example.So in short, the problem is not diversity but producing good stories with entertaining protagonists, plots and subplots, and have interesting antagonists and supporting casts. Check out most of the stuff that Marvel can't sell and you'll see why they are failing.
P.S.
Besides that I blame Bendis!
EDIT: As for Jane and cancer. Jane knows she could ask any of the asgardians for a cure using magic and it would work. She's refused the healing though considering it a cheap way out. This was stated on page by her IIRC.
Btw Hela isn't ruler of Hel at the moment, she was ousted by Angela.
considering two of marvels biggest sellers of the 70s into the 90s relied very heavily on a diverse cast with a storyline based on race relations, this seems false on its face.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Okay seriously, am I talking to myself? Cause if I am I'll go sit in corner now...
I asked POLITELY I thought. Can we PLEASE drop this topic since it's not actually ON topic!
Please? With sugar on it?
friend, this is marvel. They made their money- quite by accident- by having more minority characters than dc over a looooooooooong stretch of time. While I get that you may not want discuss it at least at this point in time, they are the only company to appeal to non whites in this way without seeming like they are trying to play catch up insincerely- and this is coming from someone who wears three green lantern rings and one legion of super heroes ring every day on his right hand.
I don't want to discuss it Freehold because THIS isn't thread titled "Is Marvel doing enough to sell comics?" If it was, I'd be please to let that continue.
It's clearly NOT. Now am I against having a black or bi-racial Spiderman? Hells no. Not any more than I am a female Thor (who is proving to be awesome) or a Black Captain America (who isn't any more.)
So...yeah. If you guys want to call that out in another thread fine. But honestly I see it CONSTANTLY in every forum in every comic thingie and non-comic thingie I can find.
What I WANT to do is discuss the actual FREAKING STORYLINES that are leading up to Secret Empire AND ramifications of those storylines.
Ok someone explain to me....Why is Beast a Wizard now?
I don't want to discuss it Freehold because THIS isn't thread titled "Is Marvel doing enough to sell comics?" If it was, I'd be please to let that continue.
It's clearly NOT. Now am I against having a black or bi-racial Spiderman? Hells no. Not any more than I am a female Thor (who is proving to be awesome) or a Black Captain America (who isn't any more.)
So...yeah. If you guys want to call that out in another thread fine. But honestly I see it CONSTANTLY in every forum in every comic thingie and non-comic thingie I can find.
What I WANT to do is discuss the actual FREAKING STORYLINES that are leading up to Secret Empire AND ramifications of those storylines.
This is my fault and I would like to try and syphon that discussion off to this thread over here and out of this one
Grey,
I'm not blaming you. I just want people to understand what this thread is.
As for why Beast is a wizard now? If I recall correct back in All-new X-men Volume 2, Issue 8, he goes to Strange to learn about what he can do help Cyclops (and I think get home) Mostly because he realizes he's not as smart as the older version of himself. (Weird huh?)
So now he's using Magic.
Secret Empire Solicits are out! Steve Rogers might not make it to August!
Interesting, from the looks of things the world at large sees Steve saving them from something while the heroes realize "Oh Crap, he's gone bad"
How do you take down the world's most popular hero
Grey,
They probably got mind whammed when Mordo took over Manhattan. Or something.
Plus it looks like a goodly chunk of heavy hitters are up in space trying to fend off the Chitari.
But it does raise that question. I just keep wondering about the cover with Thor (Odinson), Vision and Scarlet Witch. I HOPE they're standing with the other heroes...
If they really wanted to give the readers a interesting twist. Have some villains side with the heroes. As a evil Cap is probably bad for business in a sense that he is smarter than most villains in the MU. Not to mention he is willing to back up words with actions.
Max,
It MIGHT happen. I mean Emma Frost has gone bad. Clearly based on solicits, she's willing to take the fight to Cap.
The others that aren't Thanos (who is busy with Hela) and Apocalypse (who is...still a kid clone) or even Kang (who probably is stuck somewhere in time) pretty much decided to join up with HYDRA since they don't have to listen to Red Skull any more...
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I can see a lot of villains thinking "Wait....we sign up for World Domination and Captain America is gonna be on OUR side this time instead of punching my teeth out.....where do I sign up"
I know I'd be on that side if I didn't have a paladin complex. :p ;)
Mind you the villians know Cap as a hero not a villain. So some might join his side with some working against him for all the times he captured them as a hero.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Max,
I wasn't going to say anything but you should REALLY pick up Secret Empire #0. It pretty much shows how it seems...unlikely the lower ranking villains will be going against Steve Rogers run HYDRA.
Thanks for the suggestion Thomas. I was not expecting the villians to go against Hydra Cap I was hoping for some kind of dissension in the ranks. Then again Hydra Cap is going to expect that and make them a offer they cant refuse.
|
|
I'm still reading up on the big Event. Finished Jim Zub's Thunderbolt run today, and while I really liked how that went out with a big, big bang. It's one of those things that actually anger me when it comes to big Events. Another series ending to soon that I actually liked.I wasn't too fond of Malin's art, but I've been a big Thunderbolts fan since forever and I also generally like Zub's work for IDW and Dynamite (not to forget Skullkickers) so it's really disappointing that the series has to make room for Secret Empire
Wormy,
Well if you read Captain America - Steve Rogers #16...you'll kind of see why. It ties together well, especially if you read Thunderbolts first, that and THEN Secret Empire #0.
Max,
I'm pretty sure he is expecting it and also he has at least TWO semi-loyal followers (Madame Hydra most certainly) that are there to ensure fealty to the cause. So turning against Steve might mean turning against them. If you don't already know anything about Elisa Sinclair, all you need to know is...in the spoilers. ;)
Just read Secret Empire#0 and i like it so far. Cap as evil mastermind worked great and is for me that that could be one of the better events compared to most others. And the usual hero vs. hero stuff is a lot more logical compared to stuff like Avengers vs. X-men.
|
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Just read Secret Empire#0 and i like it so far. Cap as evil mastermind worked great and is for me that that could be one of the better events compared to most others.
What intrigues me is that we know it's not forever, anymore than 'CapWolf' was forever, or Steve Rogers being replaced by John Walker was forever.
What sort of fallout will come of this? Cap's always had an easy sort of self-confidence, regarding the correctness of his viewpoints, and been perhaps a little too comfortable with how he's seen as a symbol or living legend. Even if he has no reason to feel particularly guilty about this reality-rewrite personality change, I wonder if he's going to regard his own 'icon' status as something sketchy, even dangerous, like a cult of personality, having experienced how easily his image can be manipulated (in this case, by himself!).
I could see a general boring mopy self-doubt phase, but that doesn't feel like Cap (or sound terribly interesting).
I could also see Cap becoming less of a fan of 'symbols' and more of a fan of just doing the right thing, even if it's not the popular thing, and screw the optics. He might, once again, ditch the flag garb (perhaps feeling that he's let it down, and doesn't deserve to wear it, and going back to just using his name, or just 'Captain,' for a time). He might even become a little bit, not anti-vigilante, but anti-celebrity vigilante...
Or a different tack entirely, Cap could see how he, as a Hydra loyalist, was *effective,* because he was willing to embrace some aspects of his 'celebrity' that he hadn't in the past been as willing to exploit. He might decide that punching bad guys represents less 'power' to serve and protect American ideals (and is something hundreds of other heroes can do as well or better) than something more radical, like running for office!
There's some interesting directions this could go, depending on what themes Marvel wants to explore with Cap going forward.
It could be that he gets back to his real self and his Hydra Cap stuff gets swept under the rug by his friends to not damage him in light of the bad reputation that heroes have in the MU. And that could lead to a more positive outlook in general. I mean the X-men are getting back to being heroic and no longer in the "mutants are a dying species" mindset.
I would be glad if Secret Empire was the last of heroes vs. heroes events and they could get back to being heroic.
|
|
It could be that he gets back to his real self and his Hydra Cap stuff gets swept under the rug by his friends to not damage him in light of the bad reputation that heroes have in the MU.
Can't imagine that Steve would allow this to happen. Because sooner or later, someone would find out about this little secret, and the exposure would ruin the heroes' reputation once and for all.
Well if you read Captain America - Steve Rogers #16...you'll kind of see why. It ties together well, especially if you read Thunderbolts first, that and THEN Secret Empire #0.
I did that, and while I understand now, I hate it even more (if that makes any sense without spoilering what happens).
Apart from that, I have to give credits to Kobik (and by extension, the writers). I was wondering all the time if Steve mustn't have sensed that there is something wrong with his fake memories (when he is the only one sharing those), but they brillantly explained this away. This is a plan such complex though, that I get the feeling that we're missing a piece of the picture right now. I am somehow sceptical about a cosmic cube being so easy to manipulate by the Red Skull to do his biddings but simultaneously orchestrating so many little events eventually leading to the Skull's demise and Rogers' rise.
Maybe I'm just overthinking this, but for some reason I think we haven't seen the last from our favorite little cosmic cube. And I don't think it will simply return in time to save the day. And given the relation between cosmic cubes and the Beyonders, I would also not wonder at all, if Victor von Doom will also play a role in this.