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I'm with Jeff. Worthy has meant more than just "intent" or whatever.
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And "worthy" has NEVER been properly defined.
And as many times as Thor had been mind controlled by a bad guy, like Enchantress for instance and STILL been able to wield Mjolnir while being a tool of villains?
and then there's this from Walt Simonson:
"One of the cool things about Thor was the enchantment around Mjolnir and the original inscription on it. So I thought, well that means someone else can pick up this hammer and get this power, if they're worthy! So since then, some other big characters, people's favorites, have picked up the hammer, Captain America, Superman, whoever. But at this point, no one had ever picked up the hammer. I liked the idea of Cap walking to the bathroom and seeing it, and grabbing and just tugging, not being able to. So this had to be someone new. This is the most powerful weapon of the Norse gods. This hammer is a killing weapon. It's used to kill Frost Giants and others. So, Superman couldn't pick it up, cause he's never going to kill anyone, and the hammer knows that. Captain America, he's too patriotic. He's too much a symbol of America to be chosen by this Norse artifact. So he couldn't get it. So I created Bill because he's noble, and he's designed to kill. He's got a great purpose as a warrior, and also the noble ability. That makes him "worthy" whatever that may be."
And I'm going to point that that last sentence from Simonson.
As much as I love Simonson's run on THOR, a lot of what he says here is debatable and goes to the point that context and what the writer's intent is is important to the story being told.
The idea that Superman is never going to kill anyone was undermined just a few years later in Byrne's Superman title. And Cap isn't going to kill anyone? He'd just decapitated Baron Blood (who was a vampire) with the edge of his shield in yet another Byrne story just a year or two prior. And he forgets that Cap is a soldier and had no problem gunning d00ds down in the war. Never mind that Cap HAS lifted the hammer in the past.
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I'm worried that people are twisting the character of cap into a pretzel at this(or really any) point and making him into something he never was. He is a soldier, he has killed before. He firmly believes in his cause. None of these things have changed. He has been mind whammied. Cap (and a whole mess of other characters) have been mind whammied before. It didn't change who they were. If you don't like this storyline, that's fine. But just remember he is mind whammied. He is not going to act like he was be fore because he is mind whammied. This is a very old storyline that has been used before and will be used again. It is caps turn to be mind whammied. Cap is a dangerous character to mind whammy because of his righteousness and dedication. So he's going mop the floor with his foes. But he isn't magically someone else. He's just mind whammied cap.
I'm worried that people are twisting the character of cap into a pretzel at this(or really any) point and making him into something he never was. He is a soldier, he has killed before. He firmly believes in his cause. None of these things have changed. He has been mind whammied. Cap (and a whole mess of other characters) have been mind whammied before. It didn't change who they were. If you don't like this storyline, that's fine. But just remember he is mind whammied. He is not going to act like he was be fore because he is mind whammied. This is a very old storyline that has been used before and will be used again. It is caps turn to be mind whammied. Cap is a dangerous character to mind whammy because of his righteousness and dedication. So he's going mop the floor with his foes. But he isn't magically someone else. He's just mind whammied cap.
As usual Freehold DM you've put this more eloquently than I have.
The cosmic cube has altered Steve's reality. And instead of being TOLD that this is done we are over the course of several issues we are SHOWN how it was done and the effects this different reality would have on STEVE. Which is why I and several others, again who are actually READING the story, can say that this is still STEVE ROGERS.
Steve has time and time again fought or gone against his friends when he believes that he's in the right. He's stubborn and relentless in pursuing his goals especially if he thinks it's going to ultimately save and protect more people than not. In his present state, he believes Hydra will impose and enforce the order that is needed to maintain peace. And even through all of this he STILL HATES JOHANN SHMIDT. One his main goals was to make sure that the Red Skull was nowhere NEAR the command of Hydra.
...I guess we'll just agree to disagree...
But will applaud Shin's usage of Walt Simonson as a reason for the change of worthiness.
Just not sure Walt would agree with it.
And then, we have all of this
That looks worthy.
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I'm worried that people are twisting the character of cap into a pretzel at this(or really any) point and making him into something he never was. He is a soldier, he has killed before. He firmly believes in his cause. None of these things have changed. He has been mind whammied. Cap (and a whole mess of other characters) have been mind whammied before. It didn't change who they were. If you don't like this storyline, that's fine. But just remember he is mind whammied. He is not going to act like he was be fore because he is mind whammied. This is a very old storyline that has been used before and will be used again. It is caps turn to be mind whammied. Cap is a dangerous character to mind whammy because of his righteousness and dedication. So he's going mop the floor with his foes. But he isn't magically someone else. He's just mind whammied cap.
Honest question how many times before when he has been mind whamied has he killed people that are supposed to be his friends? how many has he allowed or orderd to be executed while at the same time recognising that they still used to be friends?
Also I'm not really sure mind whamied is the word I would use since it seems to have spontaniously created someone who shouldent exist if it were just a mind alteration (The current madam hydra)
I'm worried that people are twisting the character of cap into a pretzel at this(or really any) point and making him into something he never was. He is a soldier, he has killed before. He firmly believes in his cause. None of these things have changed. He has been mind whammied. Cap (and a whole mess of other characters) have been mind whammied before. It didn't change who they were. If you don't like this storyline, that's fine. But just remember he is mind whammied. He is not going to act like he was be fore because he is mind whammied. This is a very old storyline that has been used before and will be used again. It is caps turn to be mind whammied. Cap is a dangerous character to mind whammy because of his righteousness and dedication. So he's going mop the floor with his foes. But he isn't magically someone else. He's just mind whammied cap.Honest question how many times before when he has been mind whamied has he killed people that are supposed to be his friends? how many has he allowed or orderd to be executed while at the same time recognising that they still used to be friends?
Also I'm not really sure mind whamied is the word I would use since it seems to have spontaniously created someone who shouldent exist if it were just a mind alteration (The current madam hydra)
honest question, how long do people stay dead in comics, especially with a reality altering mcguffin as a part of the storyline?
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honest question, how long do people stay dead in comics, especially with a reality altering mcguffin as a part of the storyline?I'm worried that people are twisting the character of cap into a pretzel at this(or really any) point and making him into something he never was. He is a soldier, he has killed before. He firmly believes in his cause. None of these things have changed. He has been mind whammied. Cap (and a whole mess of other characters) have been mind whammied before. It didn't change who they were. If you don't like this storyline, that's fine. But just remember he is mind whammied. He is not going to act like he was be fore because he is mind whammied. This is a very old storyline that has been used before and will be used again. It is caps turn to be mind whammied. Cap is a dangerous character to mind whammy because of his righteousness and dedication. So he's going mop the floor with his foes. But he isn't magically someone else. He's just mind whammied cap.Honest question how many times before when he has been mind whamied has he killed people that are supposed to be his friends? how many has he allowed or orderd to be executed while at the same time recognising that they still used to be friends?
Also I'm not really sure mind whamied is the word I would use since it seems to have spontaniously created someone who shouldent exist if it were just a mind alteration (The current madam hydra)
depends we talking actual heroes, sidekicks, heroes parent/parent figure or just the random nobodies?
Random no bodies from Stamford are still dead. Even after the Multiverse went ppphhttt.
I'm with Kevin, it's not a mind whammy when you start creating ALL new people thanks to Magic Cube.
Random no bodies from Stamford are still dead. Even after the Multiverse went ppphhttt.
I'm with Kevin, it's not a mind whammy when you start creating ALL new people thanks to Magic Cube.
whatever.
None of this is going to matter a year from now when everything is back to more or less normal.
Freehold,
I'm not convinced it will be. But then again we'll see when 2018 rolls around.
Ok, so the most recent reveal makes me feel kind of better about all this
Also where has Steve been and how did he get back
Remaining question of course is; Was this part of the original plan or was this added in when audiences turned sour
Grey,
Regardless it's clear that Nat is ready to go off book/reservation for what happened in Vegas.
I've seen some interesting ideas about this
There is also some talk of Cap Blue and Cap Red but well....you know where that is coming from
and suddenly the series has an extra issue added to it. Considering stories are usually planned out well in advance, my guess is it's to accomidate changes to the story.
Grey,
Maybe but it might also just be them padding it out for sales.
As for those theories I heard the inverse.
how would this be for a possible ending
Hydra Cap is defeated but his face is horribly disfigured into a bloody red skull.
Grey,
So you're suggesting Ultimate Red Skull then?
Kevin,
Not quite. Red Skull had a clone. He also tried to DL his mind into Steve. But I don't ever recall him cloning Cap.
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One of our previous Red Skulls was indeed inhabiting a cloned body of Captain America. It upgraded his hand-to-hand skills quite well. When Cap had issues with I believe the Super Soldier Serum finally breaking down in his body, he was saved by a transfusion from Herr Skull, who wanted him to be around because the Skull wanted to be the one to take him down, not a failed chemistry experiment.
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yeah, Skull and Zola cloned Cap and the super-soldier serum and Red Skull had his mind put into it...then had his face melted to be a red skull again. It was the big reveal of the 'The Captain/John Walker as Cap' storyline in the 80's. Before that, Red Skull was just an exceptionally evil normal guy. Who actually had been aging since WW2.
Random no bodies from Stamford are still dead. Even after the Multiverse went ppphhttt.
I'm with Kevin, it's not a mind whammy when you start creating ALL new people thanks to Magic Cube.
whatever.
None of this is going to matter a year from now when everything is back to more or less normal.
Why do you think this will be back to normal in a year?
Seriously...
Steve Rogers was shot dead in 2007. BuckyCap took over.
Steve returns from the dead, abandons the Cap identity and heads SHIELD...
Cap regains the shield, and pops off to another dimension....
Cap loses powers and gives shield to Falcoln Cap. that was in 2014...
Cap regains youth and is immediately revealed as HydraCap...
Sooooo what is this theory that we'll be 'back to normal' in a year come from? I'm sure it will all be reverted Eventually... but these stories DO drag on and on for years sometimes. Thor lost his hammer and identity THREE YEARS ago now... So the idea of 'yeah, it'll all be fixed by the next movie' is pretty much a giant falsehood.
Phantom,
Yeah I don't see Thor getting his hammer back by the time Black Panther the movie or the second Avengers movie...
Also thanks to both you and Lathiaa for clarifying/fixing that for me.
Random no bodies from Stamford are still dead. Even after the Multiverse went ppphhttt.
I'm with Kevin, it's not a mind whammy when you start creating ALL new people thanks to Magic Cube.
whatever.
None of this is going to matter a year from now when everything is back to more or less normal.
Why do you think this will be back to normal in a year?
Seriously...
Steve Rogers was shot dead in 2007. BuckyCap took over.
Steve returns from the dead, abandons the Cap identity and heads SHIELD...
Cap regains the shield, and pops off to another dimension....
Cap loses powers and gives shield to Falcoln Cap. that was in 2014...
Cap regains youth and is immediately revealed as HydraCap...
Sooooo what is this theory that we'll be 'back to normal' in a year come from? I'm sure it will all be reverted Eventually... but these stories DO drag on and on for years sometimes. Thor lost his hammer and identity THREE YEARS ago now... So the idea of 'yeah, it'll all be fixed by the next movie' is pretty much a giant falsehood.
do you see anyone flipping out over Steve's death nowadays? Or buckycap? Or shieldcap?
No.
Hydracap will be in the same boat this time next year.
do you see anyone flipping out over Steve's death nowadays? Or buckycap? Or shieldcap?
No.
Hydracap will be in the same boat this time next year.
particularly if it turns out he was never Cap to begin with
Grey,
It might be that OR he might have been split thanks to Magic Cube.
Wow...
I must be an idiot because I actually did think they weren't going to have a convenient replacement Steve Rogers show up. How foolish of me to believe Marvel would stick to their guns.
Anyways, does anyone think Las Vegas being blown up is going to have consequences or even a mention after this event is over? I doubt it.
Lastly, do Marvel heroes really have big "no killing" rule? I remember skrulls being killed left and right in Secret Invasion, so...
do you see anyone flipping out over Steve's death nowadays? Or buckycap? Or shieldcap?
No.
Hydracap will be in the same boat this time next year.
What I see people flipping out about is that Steve Rogers is not Captain America, Sentinel of Liberty, Shield Swinging ultimate hero of Freedom.
Every time they tease people that we WILL get that... they bait and switch it. We have not had a true Classic Steve Rogers for about 10 years now. That is a long time for "Of course he'll be back... it's COMICS!!!" that we heard about during the Civil War. It's always one world shattering event after another.
It's pretty much the same thing as when people complained that they wanted Hal Jordan to be brought back, and they brought him back as the Spectre... Interesting idea, but NOT what the fans were complaining about.
HydraCap may be forgotten next year, but if they kill him off in some heroic sacrifice, or rewrite him out of existence or something... People will still be complaining to get Steve Rogers back, holding the shield and wearing the red/white/blue....
I'm with Chris in terms of they need to go somewhere else until the shield drops.
Maybe Knowhere?
But I do think Kevin and Chris raise good points in terms of "Why can't they find something else other than getting hit" to worry about." and "You really thought Galactus would do it? Seriously?!"
Delightful,
Skrulls don't count. Humans probably but not Skrulls, robots, AIs or a dozen other things.
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What do you think they ought to do, Kevin?
(My vote: fly to either the Blue Area of the moon, or Titan. Let the Chitauri pound themselves to sand on the planetary shield.)
pretty much the Chitauri (at least going by that comic) seem intent on suciding themselves upon the planet shields so why bother standing between them and the shields?
I dunno. But maybe they just can't get out of the way with all the non-flyers.
Regardless I do agree just sitting there and getting run over by them...pretty dumb!
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Well they were still trying to get through the shield while waiting for Chavez to return with the big boy. Apart from that I guess that can't know for sure that the Chitauri will never make through the shield (which, if it did happen, would mean the end of the world as we know it). So they probably try to weaken the attackers as good as they are capable of.
As far as Steve goes, I was kinda bit dissapointed in the release of the second version. Reeks of a real lame solution to the conundrum they created. I'm willing to wait, though, because so far I kinda like what they did with Secret Empire.
Wormy,
I like second Steve because it might mean they fuse together to get Steve back to being Steve.
*pauses* That's a lot of times to use the name Steve in a sentence.
Anyways, we'll see. Secret Empire still is only partial under way atm.
We'll see when Issue 3 and 4 comes out.
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Delightful,
Skrulls don't count. Humans probably but not Skrulls, robots, AIs or a dozen other things.
I really, really hate it when double standards like that occur when it comes to killing sentients in comics. It's weirdly racist in a uncomfortable way. Either have your mainstream heroes (sans the Punisher and the like) be genuinely dogmatic about not killing people or make them pragmatists that only kill when they have to.
Welcome to what people consider important.
Besides if you don't like people killing things, how do we get rid of plagues without killing rats? Or for that matter, does killing wasps some how make me a bad person too?
Welcome to what people consider important.
Besides if you don't like people killing things, how do we get rid of plagues without killing rats? Or for that matter, does killing wasps some how make me a bad person too?
You kill wasps! You miserable, evil bastard!!!
Haha. Yeah, I think I should of used sapient instead of sentient in my last comment. Always get those two confused.
Regardless, I have no real problem with superheroes killing people so as long as the narrative really does stress that they had no choice and the person being killed is a truly irredeemable monster. I'm pretty much of the opinion that guys like the Joker and Red Skull should have been killed off permanently years ago and new villains created to take their place, instead of having Batman making the 100th speech about how he can't kill people even after the Joker's broken out of Arkham for the 100th time.
Well the Joker IS pretty evil...but killing him doesn't stop him from coming back.
Well the Joker IS pretty evil...but killing him doesn't stop him from coming back.
Superhero comics need to stop making death a revolving door.
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All I care about is them bringing the Original Thor back and giving him his Original Hammer. These second rate knockoff heroes are not interesting and the pandering has to stop.
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I'm with Rysky, less Nazis more actual heroes.
Also Jane Foster is worthy. I still can't say the same for HydraCap.
the jeff,
Well the Mangog is coming back...so there is that.