Dual Initiative and Time Stop

[Athos710]

Say a mythic monster has the Dual Initiative ability and has access to Time Stop. How many "turns" does it get per round in the Time Stop apparent time?

Dual Initiative::

The monster gets two turns each round, one on its initiative count and another on its initiative count – 20. For example, if the monster's initiative is 23, for its first turn it could make a full attack (and take a 5 foot step) at initiative 23, and for its second turn at initiative 3 it could take a move action and cast a spell. This allows the monster to perform two actions per round that normally take an entire round, such as using a summon monster spell. For the purposes of spells and effects that have a duration of a round or longer or trigger at the beginning of the creature's round or the start of its turn such as saving throws against ongoing effects or taking bleed damage), only the monster's first turn each round counts toward such durations.

Time Stop:

This spell seems to make time cease to flow for everyone but you. In fact, you speed up so greatly that all other creatures seem frozen, though they are actually still moving at their normal speeds. You are free to act for 1d4+1 rounds of apparent time. Normal and magical fire, cold, gas, and the like can still harm you. While the time stop is in effect, other creatures are invulnerable to your attacks and spells; you cannot target such creatures with any attack or spell. A spell that affects an area and has a duration longer than the remaining duration of the time stop have their normal effects on other creatures once the time stop ends. Most spellcasters use the additional time to improve their defenses, summon allies, or flee from combat.

[Orfamay Quest]

It would appear to get (1d4+1)x2 "turns," since it gets a specified number of rounds, and two turns each round. Why would you read it differently?

[jbadams]

I would only allow the 1d4+1 rounds specified in the description of Time Stop, as that duration is carried out in 'apparent time' (i.e. all on the same initiative count) and the 'initiative count - 20' turns are therefore never reached during that duration.

In addition, if, for some reason you do not believe that to be the case (perhaps your ruling is that initiative order continues but without allowing anyone else to act) see the clause at the bottom of the ability which states the second turn each round does not count against spell durations. Arguably this clause may not apply, but I think it at least shows an intent to not allow this type of interaction. As first said though, I don't believe this even needs to apply, as I don't believe that second turn per round is never reached during the duration.

[Pizza Lord]

I read it the same way as Orfamay Quest. You get 1d4+1 rounds in which you can take two turns during each one.

[Chromantic Durgon <3]

Orfamay seems right to me.

[Bill Dunn]

I don't see anything wrong with interpreting the two working together to provide 1d4+1 rounds with 2 actions per round.... other than that maybe being a bit excessive. If I were running a game with that combo as an option, I'm not sure I'd take it at full potential. When prepping the adventure for play, I'd probably drop one of those powers out of the mix in favor of something else less likely to beat the crap out of the action economy.

[Samasboy1]

Time Stop is a 9th level spell. Dual Initiative is a Mythic ability.

"Excessive" doesn't really have meaning in this context.

[Athos710]

I was reading it the same way other folks here seem to have, just wanted a sanity check. I'm not very familiar with either 9th level spells or mythic abilities.

[jbadams]

I stand by my reading, but I can certainly see how you're arriving at the alternative, and I don't think it's unbalancing considering the combination of 9th level spell and Mythic ability. :)

[Alderic]

Hopefully no one tries to extend that time stop, or worse mythic extend it

[Chromantic Durgon <3]

Mythic time stop can be augmented to last hours so I wouldn't be all too worried about extending it lol.

[Orfamay Quest]

jbadams wrote:

I stand by my reading,

I'm afraid I think your reading is erroneous.

To understand why, let's start by taking time stop out of the situation and look at a more simple spell, like haste.

I have dual initiative, and I (or one of my minions) casts haste on me and my posse, which lasts X rounds. This means that for X rounds, everyone gets various bonuses, including for simplicity one attack every time we full attack, which we always do.

It should be clear that for my minions, the spell lasts X rounds, granting them X bonus attacks. From the wording of dual initiative, "only the monster's first turn each round counts toward" things like spell durations. So the spell also lasts (for me) X rounds, but I get two turns each round, so I get 2X bonus attacks.

Similarly, if another minion cast greater invisibility on me (lasting X rounds), I would get 2X "turns" under the effects of greater invisibility. I get the same number of "rounds" as everyone else, but twice as many "turns." That's the meaning of the clause in question.

Now, looking at "time stop," you get several rounds of "apparent time," which include the expiration of spell duration (hence the phrase "A spell that affects an area and has a duration longer than the remaining duration of the time stop have their normal effects on other creatures once the time stop ends.") If I cast a spell that lasts one less time than the remainder of the time stop, it does not persist, because the spell duration has expired during the time stop, but if it lasts longer, I get the remaining duration.

So I get 1d4+1 "rounds" of "apparent time," which are [apparently] full rounds, including both my turns, but only one of those turns counts for purposes of an apparent round. So I would get 2(1d4+1) turns.