Pummeling Charge and Pounce, a conceptual comparison


Rules Questions

The Exchange

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

During a game recently my GM ruled that I could not use Pummeling Charge during the Surprise round as part of a 'partial charge'. I accepted the ruling, less because I believed it to be accurate but because it would have made an already over powered group completely trivialize the final encounter. (I was about to pummeling charge a flatfooted BBEG Caster).

But since then I have done some specific investigation into the 'Charge' action, wording of pummeling charge, and also the wording and FAQ's in place for Pounce. I have come to conclude that as far as I can tell Pummeling Charge is effectively a Pounce that specifically calls out the used of unarmed strikes and that all attacks MUST be on the same target (stipulations both part of Pummeling Style). Aside from those specific details that are called out, both Pummeling Charge and Pounce seem to have the same mechanics. That is, you are able to full attack (flurry of blows), as part of the charge action. Where normally you would only be allowed 1 attack.

There are no FAQ's on how Pummeling Charge work (aside from the FAQ for Weapons that can be used with Pummeling Style, which is clearly set, Unarmed Strikes only!) However, there are FAQ's for Pounce, specifically for if Pounce can be used to make multiple attacks while under the effect of a slow spell. (slow reducing you to only 1 standard action or 1 move action, the same limitation that you have during a surprise round.)

The FAQ states "According to the rules as written, pounce would allow the creature its full attack, despite the slow effect. (This happens because there is no "partial charge" action in the Pathfinder RPG.)"

So, as far as I can tell, The Language in Pounce and Pummeling Charge both let you full attack as part of a charge, The FAQ confirms that since there is no actual action called a "Partial Charge" that even though you may be restricted on movement distance during the charge when you can only peform a standard action, you are still performing the "Charge action" so you are still able to use Pounce (or in this case Pummeling Charge).

Agreements, Disagreements? Do other's feel this is something that should get a specific FAQ request so people don't have to Chase down all these different comparisons?

Charge:
Charge
Charging is a special full-round action that allows you to move up to twice your speed and attack during the action. Charging, however, carries tight restrictions on how you can move.

Movement During a Charge: You must move before your attack, not after. You must move at least 10 feet (2 squares) and may move up to double your speed directly toward the designated opponent. If you move a distance equal to your speed or less, you can also draw a weapon during a charge attack if your base attack bonus is at least +1.

You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles). You must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent. If this space is occupied or otherwise blocked, you can't charge. If any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can't charge. Helpless creatures don't stop a charge.

If you don't have line of sight to the opponent at the start of your turn, you can't charge that opponent.

You can't take a 5-foot step in the same round as a charge.

If you are able to take only a standard action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed) and you cannot draw a weapon unless you possess the Quick Draw feat. You can't use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action on your turn.

Attacking on a Charge: After moving, you may make a single melee attack. You get a +2 bonus on the attack roll and take a –2 penalty to your AC until the start of your next turn.

A charging character gets a +2 bonus on combat maneuver attack rolls made to bull rush an opponent.

Even if you have extra attacks, such as from having a high enough base attack bonus or from using multiple weapons, you only get to make one attack during a charge.

Lances and Charge Attacks: A lance deals double damage if employed by a mounted character in a charge.

Weapons Readied against a Charge: Spears, tridents, and other weapons with the brace feature deal double damage when readied (set) and used against a charging character.


Pummeling Style:
Pummeling Style (Combat, Style)
Your unarmed strikes weave together in an effortless combo, focusing on the spots you've weakened with the last hit.

Prerequisites: Improved Unarmed Strike; base attack bonus +6, brawler's flurry class feature, or flurry of blows class feature.

Benefit: Whenever you use a full-attack action or flurry of blows to make multiple attacks against a single opponent with unarmed strikes, total the damage from all hits before applying damage reduction. This ability works only with unarmed strikes, no matter what other abilities you might possess.


Pummeling Charge:
Pummeling Charge (Combat)
Your charge ends with a mobile combo.

Prerequisites: Improved Unarmed Strike, Pummeling Style; base attack bonus +12, brawler level 8th, or monk level 8th.

Benefit: You can charge and make a full attack or flurry of blows at the end of your charge as part of the charge action. You can use Pummeling Charge in this way only if all of your attacks qualify for using Pummeling Style against a single target.

Normal: You cannot make a full attack on a charge.


Pounce:
Pounce (Ex) When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can make a full attack (including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability).

Format: pounce; Location: Special Attacks.


Slowed Pounce FAQ:
Pounce and Slow: If a creature with pounce is under a slow effect, and it charges, does it still get its full attack from pounce?
According to the rules as written, pounce would allow the creature its full attack, despite the slow effect.

(This happens because there is no "partial charge" action in the Pathfinder RPG.)


pounce and pummeling charge make a full attack off of a charge, and there is no difference between charge and partial charge. I believe there's a FAQ that clarifies that you can pounce with a partial charge. And the wording of both just care that you're charging.

The Exchange

Chess Pwn wrote:
pounce and pummeling charge make a full attack off of a charge, and there is no difference between charge and partial charge. I believe there's a FAQ that clarifies that you can pounce with a partial charge. And the wording of both just care that you're charging.

TLDR, huh? yep, that's all in my post. Including the FAQ entry there under the last spoiler.

The goal was 1, make sure I was coming to the right conclusion and not missing anything. And 2, maybe make it a little easier for others with a FAQ for Pummeling Charge, since the same mechanics apply, but the same language isn't used in each ability.

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