Breaking Stealth: When you start your turn using Stealth, you can leave cover or concealment and remain unobserved as long as you succeed at a Stealth check and end your turn in cover or concealment. Your Stealth immediately ends after you make and attack roll, whether or not the attack is successful (except when sniping as noted below).
Now, the above is for normal stealth. You are using the shadowdancer's hide in plain sight.
As long as you can start in stealth (the conditions required for HIPS) on your turn and end up being able to use stealth (the conditions required for HIPS) at the end of your turn, you are good.
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Breaking Stealth: When you start your turn using Stealth, you can leave cover or concealment and remain unobserved as long as you succeed at a Stealth check and end your turn in cover or concealment. Your Stealth immediately ends after you make and attack roll, whether or not the attack is successful (except when sniping as noted below).
Now, the above is for normal stealth. You are using the shadowdancer's hide in plain sight.
As long as you can start in stealth (the conditions required for HIPS) on your turn and end up being able to use stealth (the conditions required for HIPS) at the end of your turn, you are good.
You still break stealth and you are plainly visible as soon as you attack. You can reenter stealth as part of your movement as soon as you are in an area that allow you to hide (i.e. within 10' of a shadow), but you need to have moved at least 5' after attacking, as the stealth attempt is part of your movement.
HIPS don't turn your stealth skill into greater invisibility.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You still break stealth and you are plainly visible as soon as you attack. You can reenter stealth as part of your movement as soon as you are in an area that allow you to hide (i.e. within 10' of a shadow), but you need to have moved at least 5' after attacking, as the stealth attempt is part of your movement.
HIPS don't turn your stealth skill into greater invisibility.
A slightly different take on what Diego said, once you move out of the area that allows you to remain hidden, you become visible, but since your target was unaware of you at the start of your turn, they are susceptible to your sneak attack, and after your sneak attack, you move and can re-hide once the conditions allow for it.
One catch though: If your target has a readied action in response to an attack, then he can attack you prior to your sneak attack -- although you still get your sneak attack if you are still able after his attack is resolved -- you are still able to continue your action post-readied action -- if you can.
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you'd need one stealth check to sneak attack them this round and one to be hidden for next round, but yeah this should work.
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If you're hiding until you break stealth with an attack, how can the readied action go off before the attack?
You aren't hiding when the attack occurs, realistically under this scenario.
What is happening is:
1) Your opponent is unaware of you at the start of your turn (which allows the sneak attack per RAW - unaware combatant)
2) You then move and reveal yourself (he is now aware) if you cannot stealth through your entire movement (depending on your specific stealth requirements)
3) Then comes your attack
4) You move back into a position that allows for stealth in order for your opponent to lose track of you (similar to how bluff works).
However, when your opponent has a readied action against this sort of tactic, he starts unaware of you specifically, but if you cannot maintain your stealth all they way up to your attack, he aware enough that an attack is occurring to preempt your attack with one of his own.
It's like a "mini-surprise round" for the rogue on his turn, mechanically speaking. Although the target is not flat footed or denied his dexterity because he has already acted (by having a readied action).
Note: this is not a strict raw reading of the breaking stealth rules -- which technically state you don't leave stealth during your movement to the target (--but that really doesn't make much sense --), but it does allow for reprisals by readied-action prep'd targets instead of being complete victims to this sort of tactic.
It is simply, what I believe to be, an alternative sequence of action event that follows the rules for stealth more strictly than "remaining hidden despite not even qualifying for being hidden by the rules of steal due to the turn-based action resolution that Pathfinder uses." gerrymandering that this stealth skill errata implements.
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I think i'd break fewer laws of quantum physics letting Ready Randy get hit then hit back before The Blur can vanish again.
Or to make it more raw, you can't ready for an action you can't see, you can't see the start of the attack , you can see someone popping out of the shadows with their hand on the dagger in your kidney.
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If you're hiding until you break stealth with an attack, how can the readied action go off before the attack?You aren't hiding when the attack occurs, realistically under this scenario.
What is happening is:
1) Your opponent is unaware of you at the start of your turn (which allows the sneak attack per RAW - unaware combatant)
2) You then move and reveal yourself (he is now aware) if you cannot stealth through your entire movement (depending on your specific stealth requirements)
3) Then comes your attack
4) You move back into a position that allows for stealth in order for your opponent to lose track of you (similar to how bluff works).
However, when your opponent has a readied action against this sort of tactic, he starts unaware of you specifically, but if you cannot maintain your stealth all they way up to your attack, he aware enough that an attack is occurring to preempt your attack with one of his own.
It's like a "mini-surprise round" for the rogue on his turn, mechanically speaking. Although the target is not flat footed or denied his dexterity because he has already acted (by having a readied action).
Note: this is not a strict raw reading of the breaking stealth rules -- which technically state you don't leave stealth during your movement to the target (--but that really doesn't make much sense --), but it does allow for reprisals by readied-action prep'd targets instead of being complete victims to this sort of tactic.
It is simply, what I believe to be, an alternative sequence of action event that follows the rules for stealth more strictly than "remaining hidden despite not even qualifying for being hidden by the rules of steal due to the turn-based action resolution that Pathfinder uses." gerrymandering that this stealth skill errata implements.
We are on the rules forum. RAW is what the op is most likely asking for.
It works fine and no you cant react to something you are not aware of.
We are on the rules forum. RAW is what the op is most likely asking for.It works fine and no you cant react to something you are not aware of.
I gave the RAW answer in my first post. You ready an action in response to a condition, and that condition could be "when I am attacked". The ready action makes no statement toward being unaware of an attacker.
So, having a ready action even against the RAW interpretation of this tactic is completely valid.
Note that the attacker breaks stealth when he attacks, whether he hits or not, not just when he lands a damaging attack. So, it is quite plausible that the appearance of the attacker at the start of the attack can be countered with a ready action prior to it actually landing.
There is nothing incorrect in my first post (the 2nd post in this thread).
It mentions nothing about a readied action in that post. Nor is there any statement regarding when you break stealth.
There is nothing incorrect in my first post (the 2nd post in this thread).
It mentions nothing about a readied action in that post. Nor is there any statement regarding when you break stealth.
Stealth ends AFTER you make the attack. if randy swings before the attack.. what is he swinging at?
Stealth ends AFTER you make the attack. if randy swings before the attack.. what is he swinging at?
It depends on the speed of the attack "after the attack" is just as much "after you start swinging" as "after you land the blow".
his smells very like the "I ready to shoot through the doorway as soon as the door is opened." debate.Yes, readied actions typically occur before the triggering event, but in some situations it makes sense to have them happen just afterwards. You can justify this however you want, and it's quite easy. For example, agree that in cases like these, the intent of the ready is actually "I ready to attack a moment after the <condition>.".
Exactly -- which is why I posited as an alternative, after my RAW first post.
Stealth ends AFTER you make the attack. if randy swings before the attack.. what is he swinging at?It depends on the speed of the attack "after the attack" is just as much "after you start swinging" as "after you land the blow".
after you start swinging but before the blow would be before the attack, or at best during it. Not after.
after you start swinging but before the blow would be before the attack, or at best during it. Not after.Stealth ends AFTER you make the attack. if randy swings before the attack.. what is he swinging at?It depends on the speed of the attack "after the attack" is just as much "after you start swinging" as "after you land the blow".
Semantics. And since this is basically how this thread has devolved. I'm exiting stage right.
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If you search the blogs, you will find that there was an attempt to rewrite stealth to avoid this kind of confusion. It don't worked out as there are too many variable involved.
Being able to use stealth and to act against stealthy people require some cooperation between GM and players, the RAW, withotu some interpretation, is terribly unclear.
About the readied action to attack the guy using stealth:
think of a quickling. It is invisible while moving and has spring attack, but if you don't allow people to ready an action to attack him when he attack it become a extremely hard opponent for people without a way to see invisible targets.
There are two options against that:
- you ready an action to attack him after he has attacked;
- you can ready an action to attack him before he attack, but then you need to beat a DC 20 perception check to notice him approaching.
So I don't think that you can ready an action to attack someone approaching while using stealth before he attack you. You must ready an action to attack someone using stealth after he has attacked you.
Something like "I ready an action to attack back people that attack me".
Not: "I ready an action to attack people that is attempting to attack me".
The former should happen after the enemy attack you, the latter before.
Language is very flexible and we are playing, so in reality I will go with the intent more than the exact wording, and allow both guys to attack after they have been attacked.
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When you leave the shadows assuming your stealth is high enough to stay hidden until you reach them, you are not revealed until you attack. Upon returning to the shadows you may make another stealth check.
As for readied actions it depend strictly on how the trigger is worded, and you still need to be able to perceive them to get the attack off. I would word it so that you attack after you are attacked to avoid them being able to get away without being attacked.
If you word it to attack before you are attacked, but you don't see them until after the attack happens then your readied attack will not go off.
If you could see them before the attack was complete you would get your dex bonus to AC, so from a mechanics and flavor perspective it makes sense that they are not seen/noticed until after the attack is completed.