Polymorph spell that doesn't change base size work with Enlarge Person spell?

[Cor Eli Lalis]

Okay, so here's my issue. There's an argument from a single individual that if a polymorph spell doesn't change your base game size (example: medium size human turning into a medium size tiger) then spells that change your size (like enlarge person) work because the polymorph spell didn't change your size (his argument is that the "other" in "In addition, other spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell." of the polymorph section only applies if polymorph changes your base size).

I've tried explaining multiple times & various ways that it's not possible to stack the polymorph spell with a size increasing spell even if you stay in the same size category. He wants an official ruling saying he's wrong & I've tried to message Paizo directly to get an official ruling but was told to post on here instead. So if any official working for Paizo could comment on this that would be great but I'll still welcome all comments.

[ZomB]

As you say its in the magic chapter under transmutation polymorph: In addition, other spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell.

You wont get a more official answer.

[Craglansun]

Aside from anything else, Enlarge Person only works on Humanoid.

Also, this is in the description of the Polymorph subschool

Polymorph wrote:

You can only be affected by one polymorph spell at a time. If a new polymorph spell is cast on you (or you activate a polymorph effect, such as wild shape), you can decide whether or not to allow it to affect you, taking the place of the old spell. In addition, other spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell.

Heres the link

[Orfamay Quest]

First, you're almost certainly not going to get an official response from Paizo. The procedure for doing so is to have enough people push the FAQ button, and this quesiton isn't at all "frequently asked." Even an unofficial response from someone at Paizo is highly unlikely, because they prefer to spend their time developing new product rather than refereeing disputes at home games.

That said, because it's a home game, the GM can make whatever ruling he likes. If the individual is the GM, he's right, because that's the GM's perogative. If you're the GM, he's wrong, for the same reason. If neither of you are the GM,.... ask your GM.

That said, his interpretation isn't even grammatical.

It doesn't say "other spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell that has changed your size." Absent that critical clause, there's no indication that the type of the polymorph spell has any effect at all.

He might have a case if the enlarge person spell were cast first, and only then was he polymorphed (say from a Large human to a Large bear). But since a design principle of Pathfinder (as opposed to D&D 3.5) is that order doesn't matter (for example, a fighter 1/rogue 1 is identical to a rogue 1/fighter 1), that case doesn't hold up, either.

[Orfamay Quest]

Craglansun wrote:

Aside from anything else, Enlarge Person only works on Humanoid.

A human polymorphed into a bear is still a humanoid, not an animal. Polymorph doesn't change your type, just your shape. You're basically a human wearing a very detailed bear costume.

[Craglansun]

Orfamay Quest wrote:

It doesn't say "other spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell that has changed your size." Absent that critical clause, there's no indication that the type of the polymorph spell has any effect at all.

Orfamay Quest wrote:

A human polymorphed into a bear is still a humanoid, not an animal. Polymorph doesn't change your type, just your shape. You're basically a human wearing a very detailed bear costume.

You able to cite anything to back that up...?

[Orfamay Quest]

Craglansun wrote:

Orfamay Quest wrote:

It doesn't say "other spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell that has changed your size." Absent that critical clause, there's no indication that the type of the polymorph spell has any effect at all.

Orfamay Quest wrote:

A human polymorphed into a bear is still a humanoid, not an animal. Polymorph doesn't change your type, just your shape. You're basically a human wearing a very detailed bear costume.

You able to cite anything to back that up...?

A spell does what it says it does. Nothing about the spell suggests it changes your type, only your form.

[Claxon]

It was actually an important change from 3.5 I believe, which did change your type. But Paizo removed that line, so we now have a lot of players who convert over who never noticed that it changed.

[Craglansun]

Fair enough.

Orfamay Quest wrote:

It doesn't say "other spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell that has changed your size."

Can you cite your source for this comment as well? Unless it's in an FAQ, it definitely is in the CRB.

It doesn't matter which order the spells are cast. The spell has no effect whilst polymorphed.

[Gauss]

Craglansun wrote:

Orfamay Quest wrote:

It doesn't say "other spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell that has changed your size." Absent that critical clause, there's no indication that the type of the polymorph spell has any effect at all.

Orfamay Quest wrote:

A human polymorphed into a bear is still a humanoid, not an animal. Polymorph doesn't change your type, just your shape. You're basically a human wearing a very detailed bear costume.

You able to cite anything to back that up...?

How about Jason Bulmahn's statement on the topic?

[Orfamay Quest]

Craglansun wrote:

Fair enough.

Orfamay Quest wrote:

It doesn't say "other spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell that has changed your size."

Can you cite your source for this comment as well? Unless it's in an FAQ, it definitely is in the CRB.

Yes. My source is the polymorph rules themselves, which do not contain the phrase above. (Re-read the quoted phrase, paying attention in particular to the last several words.)

I would also like to point out that the polymorph rules do not say "asparagus lasagna heals 25 hit points per serving." From that, we can reasonably conclude (because the spells do what they say they do) -- that asparagus lasagna does not, in fact, heal 25 hit points per serving.

[Craglansun]

Thanks Gauss, I conceded that.

Thanks for the sarcasm Orfamay. Very constructive. And well done for the mis-quote. Also helpful. I missed that.

Polymorph Spell:

Polymorph Spell wrote:

Polymorph

School transmutation (polymorph); Level alchemist 5, sorcerer/wizard 5

Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M (a piece of the creature whose form you choose
Range touch
Target living creature touched
Duration 1 min/level (D)
Saving Throw Will negates (harmless); Spell Resistance yes (harmless)

DESCRIPTION

This spell transforms a willing creature into an animal, humanoid or elemental of your choosing; the spell has no effect on unwilling creatures, nor can the creature being targeted by this spell influence the new form assumed (apart from conveying its wishes, if any, to you verbally).

If you use this spell to cause the target to take on the form of an animal, the spell functions as beast shape II. If the form is that of an elemental, the spell functions as elemental body I. If the form is that of a humanoid, the spell functions as alter self. The subject may choose to resume its normal form as a full-round action; doing so ends the spell for that subject.

Transmutation School:

Transmutation

Transmutation spells change the properties of some creature, thing, or condition.

Subschools

Polymorph: a polymorph spell transforms your physical body to take on the shape of another creature. While these spells make you appear to be the creature, granting you a +10 bonus on Disguise skill checks, they do not grant you all of the abilities and powers of the creature. Each polymorph spell allows you to assume the form of a creature of a specific type, granting you a number of bonuses to your ability scores and a bonus to your natural armor. In addition, each polymorph spell can grant you a number of other benefits, including movement types, resistances, and senses. If the form you choose grants these benefits, or a greater ability of the same type, you gain the listed benefit. If the form grants a lesser ability of the same type, you gain the lesser ability instead. Your base speed changes to match that of the form you assume. If the form grants a swim or burrow speed, you maintain the ability to breathe if you are swimming or burrowing. The DC for any of these abilities equals your DC for the polymorph spell used to change you into that form.

In addition to these benefits, you gain any of the natural attacks of the base creature, including proficiency in those attacks. These attacks are based on your base attack bonus, modified by your Strength or Dexterity as appropriate, and use your Strength modifier for determining damage bonuses.

If a polymorph spell causes you to change size, apply the size modifiers appropriately, changing your armor class, attack bonus, Combat Maneuver Bonus, and Stealth skill modifiers. Your ability scores are not modified by this change unless noted by the spell.

Unless otherwise noted, polymorph spells cannot be used to change into specific individuals. Although many of the fine details can be controlled, your appearance is always that of a generic member of that creature's type. Polymorph spells cannot be used to assume the form of a creature with a template or an advanced version of a creature.

When you cast a polymorph spell that changes you into a creature of the animal, dragon, elemental, magical beast, plant, or vermin type, all of your gear melds into your body. Items that provide constant bonuses and do not need to be activated continue to function while melded in this way (with the exception of armor and shield bonuses, which cease to function). Items that require activation cannot be used while you maintain that form. While in such a form, you cannot cast any spells that require material components (unless you have the Eschew Materials or Natural Spell feat), and can only cast spells with somatic or verbal components if the form you choose has the capability to make such movements or speak, such as a dragon. Other polymorph spells might be subject to this restriction as well, if they change you into a form that is unlike your original form (subject to GM discretion). If your new form does not cause your equipment to meld into your form, the equipment resizes to match your new size.

While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form (such as keen senses, scent, and darkvision), as well as any natural attacks and movement types possessed by your original form. You also lose any class features that depend upon form, but those that allow you to add features (such as sorcerers that can grow claws) still function. While most of these should be obvious, the GM is the final arbiter of what abilities depend on form and are lost when a new form is assumed. Your new form might restore a number of these abilities if they are possessed by the new form.

You can only be affected by one polymorph spell at a time. If a new polymorph spell is cast on you (or you activate a polymorph effect, such as wild shape), you can decide whether or not to allow it to affect you, taking the place of the old spell. In addition, other spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell.

If a polymorph spell is cast on a creature that is smaller than Small or larger than Medium, first adjust its ability scores to one of these two sizes using the following table before applying the bonuses granted by the polymorph spell.

I've quoted everything pertaining to Polymorph and bolded the parts misrepresented by yourself. I'm unsure why you think it doesn't exist...? It doesn't say "In addition, other spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell unless your size remains unchanged."

If we we're going purely from the spell, we wouldn't get the +10 to disguise listed in the subschool either.

[Orfamay Quest]

Craglansun wrote:

Thanks Gauss, I conceded that.

Thanks for the sarcasm Orfamay. Very constructive. And well done for the mis-quote. Also helpful. I missed that.

You apparently missed quite a bit.

I explicitly stated that it doesn't say "In addition, other spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell unless your size remains unchanged." As I pointed out, the final clause in that misquote does not exist.

What can we conclude from the absence of that critical final clause? Well, I addressed that above as well. "Absent that critical clause, there's no indication that the type of the polymorph spell has any effect at all." It doesn't matter whether or not the polymorph spell changes your size with regard to whether or not other spells have an effect. So the argument that "the polymorph spell doesn't change my size" is simply not relevant or valid.

[Craglansun]

You're quoting something I said doesn't exist, to say it doesn't exist?

Completely baffled.

The true quote "In addition, other spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell." is in the CRB, and very much does exist. Take it or leave it.

[Gauss]

Craglansun, Orfamay's post in question was not a response to you, it was a response to the OP.

Perhaps rereading that in that context you will understand his response better.

Also, my response to you was posted roughly the same time as your concession. You may want to check the time stamp.

[James Risner]

Polymorph doesn't change your type.

Enlarge doesn't stack with Polymorph even if you polymorph into the same size as your type.

[Lorewalker]

Orfamay Quest wrote:

It doesn't say "other spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell that has changed your size." Absent that critical clause, there's no indication that the type of the polymorph spell has any effect at all.

"In addition, other spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell."

This does not imply that the polymorph spell changes your size by the fact that the word other is used?

Let's just the opposite of your approach. Is this grammatically valid?

"In addition, other spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell that does not change your size."

Let's simplify this for easy reading...

"In addition, while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell that does not change your size, other spells that change your size have no effect on you."

It does not. For it to be grammatically correct you must make a change to the sentence similar to the next example.

"In addition, while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell that does not change your size, other spells(ones that change your size) have no effect on you."

As you see, the descriptor must be made separate from the subject for this to work.

With the word other it says something different than it says without it. Let me show you what it says without the word other,
"In addition, spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell."
Now the sentence agrees with you.

Disclaimer: I am absolutely not arguing intention. I am only arguing the words as they are written and what those words mean in the english language.

[Orfamay Quest]

Lorewalker wrote:

Orfamay Quest wrote:

It doesn't say "other spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell that has changed your size." Absent that critical clause, there's no indication that the type of the polymorph spell has any effect at all.

"In addition, other spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell."

This does not imply that the polymorph spell changes your size by the fact that the word other is used?

No. "Other spells" in this contex are non-polymorph spells (such as enlarge person that change your size.

Look at the two preceding sentences: "You can only be affected by one polymorph spellat a time. If a new polymorph spell is cast on you (or you activate a polymorph effect, such as wild shape), you can decide whether or not to allow it to affect you, taking the place of the old spell."

From these two sentences, it's clear that another polymorph spell cannot stack; if enlarge person were a polymorph spell (it's not), it would either have no effect or it would turn off the polymorph effect.

But enlarge person isn't a polymorph spell. What then? Now we see what an "other spell" is.

In this case, it's clear that an "other spell" is a non-polymorph spell (that changes your size) such as enlarge/reduce person. And therefore it "[has] no effect on you."

Quote:

Let's just the opposite of your approach. Is this grammatically valid?

"In addition, other spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell that does not change your size."

Let's simplify this for easy reading...

"In addition, while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell that does not change your size, other spells that change your size have no effect on you."

Let me expand your example:

"In addition, while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell that does not change your size, other non-polymorph spells that change your size have no effect on you."

Simple, grammatical, and a much better interpretation than what you proposed.

[Lorewalker]

Orfamay Quest wrote:

Lorewalker wrote:

Orfamay Quest wrote:

It doesn't say "other spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell that has changed your size." Absent that critical clause, there's no indication that the type of the polymorph spell has any effect at all.

"In addition, other spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell."

This does not imply that the polymorph spell changes your size by the fact that the word other is used?

No. "Other spells" in this contex are non-polymorph spells (such as enlarge person that change your size.

Look at the two preceding sentences: "You can only be affected by one polymorph spellat a time. If a new polymorph spell is cast on you (or you activate a polymorph effect, such as wild shape), you can decide whether or not to allow it to affect you, taking the place of the old spell."

From these two sentences, it's clear that another polymorph spell cannot stack; if enlarge person were a polymorph spell (it's not), it would either have no effect or it would turn off the polymorph effect.

But enlarge person isn't a polymorph spell. What then? Now we see what an "other spell" is.

In this case, it's clear that an "other spell" is a non-polymorph spell (that changes your size) such as enlarge/reduce person. And therefore it "[has] no effect on you."

Quote:

Let's just the opposite of your approach. Is this grammatically valid?

"In addition, other spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell that does not change your size."

Let's simplify this for easy reading...

"In addition, while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell that does not change your size, other spells that change your size have no effect on you."

Let me expand your example:

"In addition, while you are under the...

So, basically, you agree with me in part.

1) My first point was that you must remove the descriptor from the subject to make the sentence mean what you say it does. In your reply, your first answer was to remove the descriptor from the subject despite the fact that the original sentence does not.

2) In your final example, you have performed a non-equivalent conversion of the sentence by removing the word other and not replacing its meaning.

[Orfamay Quest]

Lorewalker wrote:

So, basically, you agree with me in part.

1) My first point was that you must remove the descriptor from the subject to make the sentence mean what you say it does. In your reply, your first answer was to remove the descriptor from the subject despite the fact that the original sentence does not.

2) In your final example, you have performed a non-equivalent conversion of the sentence by removing the word other and not replacing its meaning.

Literally every sentence you wrote above was wrong.

"Other spells that change your size" are, in context, "non-polymorph spells that change your size." The opposition between "polymorph and "non-polymorph" is exact and is captured precisely by "other."

[Lorewalker]

Orfamay Quest wrote:

Lorewalker wrote:

So, basically, you agree with me in part.

1) My first point was that you must remove the descriptor from the subject to make the sentence mean what you say it does. In your reply, your first answer was to remove the descriptor from the subject despite the fact that the original sentence does not.

2) In your final example, you have performed a non-equivalent conversion of the sentence by removing the word other and not replacing its meaning.

Literally every sentence you wrote above was wrong.

"Other spells that change your size" are, in context, "non-polymorph spells that change your size." The opposition between "polymorph and "non-polymorph" is exact and is captured precisely by "other."

So, you didn't put the descriptor in parenthesis, thus separating the description from the subject?

Did someone else write this, " non-polymorph spell (that changes your size)" and post it from your account? Or was literally every sentence I wrote not wrong?

Other is not in the subject. Other also has an effect on both subjects. You did not account for that effect.

"Spells that change your size" can be turned into "non-polymorph spells that change your size" by the context of the first sentence. Since we know for sure the subcategory of spells that change your size and are polymorph spells already agrees with the statement that only one has an effect.

But, you still must solve the rest of the sentence.
"In addition, other [non-polymorph] spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell."
Is equivalent to the original statement and context.

"In addition, [non-polymorph] spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell."
Is not.

"In addition, other [non-polymorph] spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell."
Still needs to be solved in relation to, "polymorph spell," under the definition of the word other.

[Orfamay Quest]

Perhaps I can make myself more clear.:

Lorewalker wrote:

So, basically, you agree with me in part.

I do not agree with you in any way. Your sentence is wrong.

Quote:

1) My first point was that you must remove the descriptor from the subject to make the sentence mean what you say it does.

I do not need to, as that descriptor is not relevant to understanding the meaning of "other" in context. Your sentence is wrong.

Quote:

In your reply, your first answer was to remove the descriptor from the subject despite the fact that the original sentence does not.

This is not a significant change, as the omitted clause is does not affect the interpretation of the word "other." Your sentence is wrong.

Quote:

2) In your final example, you have performed a non-equivalent conversion of the sentence by removing the word other and not replacing its meaning.

The conversion is equivalent. Your sentence is wrong.

Ergo,

Literally every sentence you wrote above was wrong.

[Lorewalker]

Orfamay Quest wrote:

Perhaps I can make myself more clear.:

Lorewalker wrote:

So, basically, you agree with me in part.

I do not agree with you in any way. Your sentence is wrong.

Quote:

1) My first point was that you must remove the descriptor from the subject to make the sentence mean what you say it does.

I do not need to, as that descriptor is not relevant to understanding the meaning of "other" in context. Your sentence is wrong.

Quote:

In your reply, your first answer was to remove the descriptor from the subject despite the fact that the original sentence does not.

This is not a significant change, as the omitted clause is does not affect the interpretation of the word "other." Your sentence is wrong.

Quote:

2) In your final example, you have performed a non-equivalent conversion of the sentence by removing the word other and not replacing its meaning.

The conversion is equivalent. Your sentence is wrong.

Ergo,

Literally every sentence you wrote above was wrong.

Examples of the word other's usage and how it applies to the subjects: Assume only two cities.

"I live in a dirty city, I want to go to the other city."
Subject 1 must be a dirty city, subject 2 must be a city.

"I live in this city, I want to go to the other dirty city."
Subject 1 must be a dirty city, subject 2 must be a dirty city.

"I live in a dirty city, I want to go to the other city with quality schools."
Subject 1 must be a dirty city with quality schools, subject 2 must be a city with quality schools.

"I live in a dirty city, I want to go to the other city (with quality schools)."
Subject 1 must be a dirty city, subject 2 must be a city.

The descriptors can not be ignored.