Hello To the Paizo Forums!
Some friends and I are going to be starting a new campaign soon, and In our last one I was shooting it up as an Unchained Monk. So rather than lots of damage I was aiming to try and build up a Dirty Trick Rogue. It feels thematic to a roguish type of character, and I wanted to do something different than damage dealing all the time. SO far I plan to single class the whole way through, just becasue that's how I prefer it. IN terms of build, I'm going human and taking the favored class bonus for extra rogue talents:
1 agile maneuvers, dirty fighting
2 Rogue talent Underhanded Trick
3 Dodge
4 Rogue talent combat swipe
5 Mobility
6 Rogue talent Fast Stealth, Rogue talent combat Trick (greater Dirty Trick)
7 spring attack
8 Rogue talent underhanded maneuver (Dirty Trick)
9 Quick Dirty Trick
10 Rogue talent Feat (Defiant Luck)
11 Greater Steal
12 Rogue talent Improved Evasion rogue talent Slippery Mind
13 Inexplicable Luck
14 Rogue Talent double debilitation
15 Dirty Trick master
16 Rogue Trick hide in plain sight Urban
17 Bestow Luck
18 Rogue Trick Hide in plain Sight Underground
19 Fearless Curiosity
20 Rogue Trick Weapon Snatcher
What I've found for items that will help immensely are of course a belt of dexterity, and hoping to pick up a Burglar's Buckler and Gauntlet's of the skilled maneuver for an extra +4 on those Dirty Tricks.
Using Dirty trick most often to blind and hopefully flanking for the bonus from Dirty Fighting. And the major reason for building for spring attack is to be able to spring in and Dirty trick with Quick Dirty Trick and back out, a slippery and hard to hit rogue basically.
Also taking Steal since it's thematic and might be useful in some situations. Plus, as long as the opponent is blind i can try most other combat maneuver's without provoking from the blind enemy.
Any other items or feats I should look into for this? Thank you in advance!
It might prove tough for a straight Rogue to successfully beat enemy CMD consistently... I typically like to mix my Rogue with a little bit of improved combat ability, and I would absolutely do that if I was basing a whole build on succeeding at Dirty Trick. Just saying that's how I'd go about it; maybe 3 levels in Lore Warden, or even 1 or more levels in Wizard to gain INT to all combat maneuvers and Foresight to double-roll important Dirty Trick attempts and True Strike.
Anything that lowers AC also lowers CMD, so that's always helpful with maneuvers.
You can usually perform dirty tricks with your weapon, so weapon finesse without agile maneuvers might be sufficient.
You can't start taking the 1/6 rogue talent FCB until you get a rogue talent, i.e. 2nd level. This means that you get bonus talents at 7, 13, 19 not 6, 12, 18.
You might like to get a rapier with the sticky property at some point if you're going to use steal a lot.
Gauntlets of the Skilled Maneuver are +2 for 4000 gp, you'll want them.
Cayden Cailean's divine fighting technique and a Cailean Fighting Tankard might be worthwhile for buffing purposes at some point. The Accelerated Drinker trait would be useful with the same equipment, though not in the same action.
You're sure about spending 3 feats on the human luck feats? They're not terribly strong. Getting Iron Will, Fortified Armor Training and the advanced talent Skill Mastery would be more effective along the same lines.
You definitely want to look at the vexing dodger: the theme is it fights giants, but the dirty tricks on a sneak attack are really nasty if you build for sneak attacks
WiseWolf wrote: So rather than lots of damage I was aiming to try and build up a Dirty Trick Rogue. It seems to me that Dirty Tricks and lots of Damage may go hand-in-hand. When you use Dirty Tricks to make your opponnents Blind, they get no Dex bonus, and you get your Sneak Attack Damage.
I think your character might benefit from some alternate means of locking in your Sneak Attack Damage.
Take a 1 level dip in Arcanist and take Dimensional Slide, a tactical teleport with a range of 10' that doesn't leave you disoriented like Dimension Door does. That seems like a swell way to achieve Flanking.
Bluff and Feinting Feats.
Shatter Defenses and Cornudgeon Smash Feats. This is an interesting choice because it makes your opponents not only without Dex, but actually Flatfooted. If you take Sap Adept, Sap Master, and maybe Knockout Artist, you will do more than double Sneak Attack Damage, albeit the Sap' Feats limit you to nonlethal, bludgeoning damage, and Knockout Artist limits you to Unarmed Strike.
If I were taking Dodge and Mobility, I think I'd also take Panther Style Feats, which give you Free Action Unarmed Attacks whenever you Provoke Attacks of Opportunity by Moving out of Threatened Squares. Panther Style Feats also pretty much work only with Unarmed Strike.
If you were a Tiefling, you might take Nightmare Fist and Moonlight Stalker, giving you a +2 Attack/+4 Damage triggered by your Magical Darkness. And then you might take some levels in Shadowdancer to Hide in Plain Sight, also triggered by your magical Darkness. Maybe take Improved Blindfighting and carry around some Smokesticks.
If you took Hamatula Strike, every attack with a Piercing Weapon can also let you do Grappling Damage, and if you are wearing Armor Spikes, every Grapple Attack will also do Armor Spike Damage, and since the Grapple Check is a separate attack, if the initial attack does Sneak Attack Damage, then those Grapple/Armor Spikes will do Sneak Attack Damage, too. If you dipped a level into Monk Master of Many Styles, you can take Snake Style in addition to Panther Style feats and your Unarmed Strikes could also do Piercing Damage. People with Unchained Rogues seem to like Rapiers. And of course, you can just attack with your Armor Spikes.
So, bear in mind this is not advice for 1 character build. I'm talking about multiple build features that might involve large combinations of Feats and Class Abilities that don't always play well together, and anyway, you won't have enough feat slots to put them all into 1 character.
#1 You're missing Improved Dirty Trick for Greater Dirty Trick and Quick Dirty Trick (Dirty Fighting doesn't count as the improved feat).
#2 Greater Dirty Trick requires 6 BAB, meaning you can't take it until Level 8.
BadBird wrote: It might prove tough for a straight Rogue to successfully beat enemy CMD consistently... I typically like to mix my Rogue with a little bit of improved combat ability, and I would absolutely do that if I was basing a whole build on succeeding at Dirty Trick. Just saying that's how I'd go about it; maybe 3 levels in Lore Warden, or even 1 or more levels in Wizard to gain INT to all combat maneuvers and Foresight to double-roll important Dirty Trick attempts and True Strike.
Anything that lowers AC also lowers CMD, so that's always helpful with maneuvers.
Lore Warden Might be a good idea, if only for the BAB, and the flat +2 bonus to all maneuvers.
Blinding lower's AC, so it makes it so I can do the other stuff a little more consistently. :3
But yes, Rogue's have a lower BAB. That's why I was going to take the Rogue Trick Underhanded Maneuver at level 8: The difference starts to be a little more prevalent there, and it makes up the difference for dirty tricks as I continue to level.
I want to try single classing (Mostly because I'm lazy and enjoy playing a class through to the end) but I'll work on it and see if I can fit Lore Warden in Maybe. It can still match the theme the guy has going.
avr wrote: You can usually perform dirty tricks with your weapon, so weapon finesse without agile maneuvers might be sufficient.
True, But not always. Trying to Entangle a Golem with my dagger? Probably not. Doing it with a rope? That makes more sense. Plus, I can use any of the other Combat maneuver's without having to worry if I can use my Weapon or not.
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You can't start taking the 1/6 rogue talent FCB until you get a rogue talent, i.e. 2nd level. This means that you get bonus talents at 7, 13, 19 not 6, 12, 18.
Really? I didn't realize that. Where does it say that? :( that's kinda dumb.
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You might like to get a rapier with the sticky property at some point if you're going to use steal a lot.
I'll definitely look into putting it on a weapon at some point. Free Steals every once in a while seems good to me.
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Gauntlets of the Skilled Maneuver are +2 for 4000 gp, you'll want them.
Already stated that was one I'm planning on aiming for, along with a Burglar's Buckler. :p
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Cayden Cailean's divine fighting technique and a Cailean Fighting Tankard might be worthwhile for buffing purposes at some point. The Accelerated Drinker trait would be useful with the same equipment, though not in the same action.
Doesn't necessarily fit the character in this case, but hey, if I ever build that Drunken Brawler, I'll keep this in mind. :)
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You're sure about spending 3 feats on the human luck feats? They're not terribly strong. Getting Iron Will, Fortified Armor Training and the advanced talent Skill Mastery would be more effective along the same lines.
I was originally going to go two weapon fighting toward the end of the build, but Decided I liked the idea of sheer dumb luck occasionally helping me out. Fortified armor training could be nice for stopping crits though. And skill Mastery for sure something I should take. not sure why I skipped it.
Sammy T wrote: #1 You're missing Improved Dirty Trick for Greater Dirty Trick and Quick Dirty Trick (Dirty Fighting doesn't count as the improved feat).
#2 Greater Dirty Trick requires 6 BAB, meaning you can't take it until Level 8.
Rogue Talent Underhanded Trick: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/paizo---ro gue-talents/underhanded-trick
Gives me Improved Dirty Trick and let's me take Greater at level 6. :3 Plus, It forces an enemy to be unable to remove blindness for a round.
Here is an Example of the character I built at level 5:
Level 5 Unchained Rogue
STR 12
DEX 18 (20)
CON 18
INT 16
WIS 13
CHA 18
Defense:
HP: 57
AC: 19
CMD: 20 (22 against Dirty tricks and steal)
FORT: +6
REF: +10
WILL: +3
Offense:
BAB: +3
Masterwork Dagger +9 (1d4+5)
Masterwork Shortbow +9 (1d6)
Dirty Trick +12 (+16 flanking)
Steal: +10 (+14 flanking)
Abilities: Finesse Training, Sneak Attack +3d6, Trapfinding, Evasion, Danger Sense +1, Finesse Training (Daggers), Debilitating Injury, Uncanny Dodge, Rogue's Edge (Sleight of Hand)
Feats: Weapon Finesse, Agile Maneuvers, Dirty Fighting, Improved Dirty Trick, Dodge, Mobility, Improved Steal
Equipment: Gauntlet's of the skilled maneuver (Dirty Trick), Belt of Dexterity +2, Cloak of Resistance +1, Wand of Cure Light Wounds, Wand of Magic Missile, Masterwork Chain Shirt
Didn't have enough money to add a Burglar's Buckler, though if I can beg for one...
And his maxed skills are Acrobatics, Bluff, Diplomacy, Disable Device, Perception, Sleight of Hand, Stealth, and Use Magic Device. Leaves 4 extra points per level for just about anything for background skills.
An almost mandatory feat you will need if you are playing a maneuver rogue is Surprise Maneuver: Just get yourself in a flanking position (or deny your target's dexterity) and go nuts with a bonus to your CMB equal to the sneak attack dice you would roll!
Oh. I didn't know about that one. I'll have to double check I can use Dirty fighting but I'll hafta see if I can get it. :3
Ah! I saw the wrong "underhanded" talent (of course Paizo would have 2 unrelated rogue talents called 'underhanded')
Sammy T wrote: Ah! I saw the wrong "underhanded" talent (of course Paizo would have 2 unrelated rogue talents called 'underhanded') No worries mate. ^^* Doesn't help I didn't spell it out.
Major things I've gathered so far:
Surprise Maneuver for more bonuses on ANY combat maneuver
Levels in Lore Warden for +2 on ANY maneuver
Plus, if it's true that I have to take my extra human rogue talents a level later, it won't actually hurt anything I'm building majorly so I'll be good.
may well be good. If there's anything else, any items or something that might help, I'd love to know.
So far, the party for this campaign seems to be:
A Steelbreaker Brawler (DPS and ignore's DR)
A Skinchanger (Surprisingly tanky and Bites for Massive Damage in her Wolf form)
A Pacifist Divination Wizard (Will focus more on Buffs and battlefield control since she doesn't like to harm people)
My Rogue, Dirty Tricks Rogue (Debuffs and sneak attacks, plus trapfinding and party face which is why my Charisma is so high)
All of our stats are high because we prefer playing that way: We roll 5d6 and drop the lowest two, since heroes should be... well, heroic.
We possibly have a cleric coming in as well, but that one's still up in the air.
Possible new Advancement for the character, assuming I have to take the extra rogue tricks a level later:
Unchained Rogue 1 Agile Maneuvers, Dirty Fighting
Unchained Rogue 2 Rogue Talent Underhanded Trick
Unchained Rogue 3 Dodge
Unchained Rogue 4 Rogue Talent Combat Swipe
Lore Warden 1(5) Mobility
Lore Warden 2(6) Spring Attack
Lore Warden 3(7) Quick Dirty Trick
Unchained Rogue 5(8)
Unchained Rogue 6(9) Rogue Talent Combat Trick (greater Dirty Trick), Surprise Maneuver
Unchained Rogue 7(10) Rogue Talent (Fast Stealth)
Unchained Rogue 8(11) Rogue Talent Underhanded Maneuver (Dirty Trick), Defiant Luck
Unchained Rogue 9(12)
Unchained Rogue 10(13) Rogue Talent Improved Evasion, Inexplicable Luck
Unchained Rogue 11(14)
Unchained Rogue 12(15) Rogue Talent Slippery Mind, Dirty Trick Master
Unchained Rogue 13(16) Rogue Talent Double Debilitation
Unchained Rogue 14(17) Rogue Talent Hide in Plain sight Underground, Bestow Luck
Unchained Rogue 15(18)
Unchained Rogue 16(19)Rogue Talent Hide in plain Sight Urban, Fearless Curiosity
Unchained Rogue 17(20)
We're starting at level 3.
CMD numbers from here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1E2-s8weiulPoBQjdI05LBzOUToyoZIdSsLK xHAvf8F8/edit#gid=3
level 3: Median CMD 18
Dirty Trick +8 (+12 when flanking)
6 or better on average to dirty trick. not bad.
level 7: Median CMD 26
Assuming Gloves of Maneuvers (Dirty Trick)
Dirty Trick +16 (+20 when flanking),
Steal +14 (+18 when Flanking)
Still about the same 6 on average for the dirty trick, And when blind removing their Dexterity makes all the other's much easier.
level 12: Median CMD 35
Assuming Gloves of Maneuvers (Dirty Trick), Belt of Dex +4, and a Burglar's Buckler
Dirty Trick +24 (+33 When Flanking)
Steal +19 (+28 when Flanking)
All other Maneuvers +15 (+20 when flanking, ignore AoO from Dirty Fighting Bonus)
Once everything kicks in after lore warden, hoo boy. Long as I'm flanking can basically never fail on Dirty Tricks.
I think this looks good. Maybe losing out on Greater Steal from the original Build but honestly I think I can get away without it since it's not the focus. Improved Steal at least allows my to add Dirty Fighting's Flank bonus of +4.
The feat Accomplished Sneak Attacker grants +1d6 Sneak Attack if multiclassing.
If you worship Pharasma, you can gain +2 on all attack rolls with daggers with Deific Obedience.
Amateur Swashbuckler: Dodging Panache lets you step away from an attacker with a CHA bonus to AC, and generally unlocks Panache stuff.
Swordmaster's Flair: Blue Scarf uses Panache to grant extra reach with weapons, which is nice for flanking, hit-n-run, attacks of opportunity, and generally being a dodgy pain in the ass to hit when combining bonus reach weapon + being able to step back. If you don't have high CHA, you can get a 3-point panache pool with Extra Panache anyways.
The Major Magic talent will let you grab Vanish or Shield or True Strike for multiple uses/day.
BadBird wrote: The feat Accomplished Sneak Attacker grants +1d6 Sneak Attack if multiclassing.
If you worship Pharasma, you can gain +2 on all attack rolls with daggers with Deific Obedience.
Amateur Swashbuckler: Dodging Panache lets you step away from an attacker with a CHA bonus to AC, and generally unlocks Panache stuff.
Swordmaster's Flair: Blue Scarf uses Panache to grant extra reach with weapons, which is nice for flanking, hit-n-run, attacks of opportunity, and generally being a dodgy pain in the ass to hit when combining bonus reach weapon + being able to step back. If you don't have high CHA, you can get a 3-point panache pool with Extra Panache anyways.
The Major Magic talent will let you grab Vanish or Shield or True Strike for multiple uses/day.
Man, My build is pretty much full up, but the amateur swashbuckler bit looks tempting.... hmmm. I will have the meditate on this.
thanks for the help, fellas!
A little bit of thread necro, but getting Dirty Trick Master when you are eligible at level 15 is amazing. You also ought to consider dropping spring attack (an interesting idea, I'll admit - boof all the things in the nads!) and consider kitsune style instead. Applying two conditions at a time, and as a AoO, is pretty neat. So at level 15 if you're lucky, you'll have +12 to your bonus from flanking for an unmodified total of 27, you can replace 1 attack with a DT, one with say, greater trip, which provokes, which you can use another DT to increase the severity (pin! Daze!), and just generally screw up someone's day. Of course by level 15, trip itself is... Unreliable. Might have to find another way to guarantee an AoO. Perhaps opportunist rogue talent?
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