It would deal nonlethal, but would also still require the Fort save vs damage dealt or be killed.
Sundaken is exactly right.
You could just say that coup de grace from a non-lethal weapon is Fort or be knocked unconscious, but would be a house-rule sort of thing.
"now how to stab this person in the throat in a less lethal manner".
Oh, another note- remember that a coup de grace is an auto crit. I am fairly sure that doubles the damage, but not the penalties. So it would be the result of 2x(1d4)-3. So it would likely be positive.
At least, if I am remember these rules right. Forgive me for not remembering the 'murdered by cats' end of the combat spectrum.
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"now how to stab this person in the throat in a less lethal manner".
Oh, another note- remember that a coup de grace is an auto crit. I am fairly sure that doubles the damage, but not the penalties. So it would be the result of 2x(1d4)-3. So it would likely be positive.
At least, if I am remember these rules right. Forgive me for not remembering the 'murdered by cats' end of the combat spectrum.
Critical hits don't multiply anything. You just roll damage multiple times. So the penalty would apply both times you rolled.
Critical hits don't multiply anything. You just roll damage multiple times. So the penalty would apply both times you rolled.
I was half remembering threads going for very particular readings of this
A critical hit means that you roll your damage more than once, with all your usual bonuses, and add the rolls together. Unless otherwise specified, the threat range for a critical hit on an attack roll is 20, and the multiplier is ×2.
The argument focused on the term 'bonuses', separating them from penalties.
Of course, looking at the same section
you immediately make an attempt to "confirm" the critical hit—another attack roll with all the same modifiers as the attack roll you just made.
And
Sometimes you multiply damage by some factor, such as on a critical hit. Roll the damage (with all modifiers) multiple times and total the results.
I see that the term 'modifier' is used, which would include penalties. So you are most likely right.
It would deal nonlethal, but would also still require the Fort save vs damage dealt or be killed.Correct, though I've seen this one commonly houseruled, even in PFS, to ignore the "Fort save or death" when dealing non-lethal damage.
I would be against that, personally.
Because you have to go back to the action being taken- coup de grace are full round actions, rather than regular attacks on a helpless creature. Why not spend a standard action for similar effect if you do not want to kill? At best, removing the death effect would make it so that the act is 'spend a full round action to crit'.
Due to the action economy cost, I feel the death effect is needed. It is pretty much the only way that these tiny nonlethal things can kill. Otherwise, they would likely have to spend a dozen turns doing their one nonlethal attack over and over until they hit the 'too much nonlethal damage kills you' threshold.
I mean... has terrible odds (10+[1 damage x2]= 12 DC), but it is still possible with bad rolls.
Really, it just means you save everyone's time if they are TPK'd by a gang of 20 cats at level 1.
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It would deal nonlethal, but would also still require the Fort save vs damage dealt or be killed.Correct, though I've seen this one commonly houseruled, even in PFS, to ignore the "Fort save or death" when dealing non-lethal damage.
I agree, was just mentioning it. For the recored, I don't think they are houseruling all Coup de grace attacks to deny the death attack option, but I think the idea is to allow players that want to incapacitate a helpless opponent quickly, to do so without risk of killing them. I think they'd still let your 20 cats kill things, if that was the point.
Yes, no one shall stand in the way of the rise of the Dark Lord Fluffy Mittens.
In seriousness, I think that such low damage enemies of course have a low value, but I think it should at least be 'some' value. So being wary enough not to get knocked out and let your neck get gnawed on is important to some combat encounters.
I am sure people can find plenty of creatures in the bestiary that have some magic, supernatural, or extraordinary gimmick like 'putting people to sleep'. While they are insta-gibbed by the barbarian's greatsword, I would want them to pose some tiny threat at least.