Hey everyone, I recently posted a different thread asking for advice on a spellcasting rogue. In that thread I tried making an Arcane Trickster build, but I was told that the Arcane Trickster class is more about spellcasting than it is about sneaking about like a rogue and attacking in melee. I wanted a character whose main identity was still a rogue who mainly uses his spellcasting ability to buff himself and debuff his enemies.
So I switched to the Eldritch Scoundrel archetype for the Unchained Rogue, which was precisely what I was looking for. It gives up a few things of the Unchained Rogue, but in return you get magus-like spellcasting! You can also pick Ninja Talents in addition to all Rogue Talents, expending daily spell slots to pay for ki costs.
This is essential, as it allows me to use Vanishing Trick from level 4 onward to become Invisible as a swift action and thus easily get my Sneak Attacks off. This is why 1st level Pearls of Power are so essential. Even if Vanishing Trick is for any reason unavailable, I can use Color Spray or Glitterdust to blind my opponents and also get my sneak attacks off. If I don't want to go into melee, I can also use Acid Splash, Snowball or Scorching Ray as ranged touch attacks to also trigger sneak attacks from a distance.
My spell selection is mainly focused on buffing myself (Sense Vitals is essential for insane sneak attack damage), dealing ranged touch attack damage to trigger sneak attacks and debuff my enemies (Mirror Image, Glitterdust and Slow). Since I need one free hand to cast spells, I decided to go for a single weapon instead of going for two weapon fighting. With the Elven Curve Blade I have solid damage (1d10 with 1.5 DEX bonus damage), while still being able to cast spells whenever I want.
Feats are a bit random perhaps, but the idea is to maximize my durability (Toughness, Iron Will) while also improving my sneak attack consistency (Weapon Focus, Point Blank Shot, Accomplished Sneak Attacker). Heighten Spell is there so that I can toy around with my spell levels very freely. With it, I can also ensure that Glitterdust and Color Spray remain viable even up until the late game.
Below is a 10th level build for this character to give you an idea of what it would look like in terms of stats, etc. I'm looking for any kind of feedback you may have. Thanks a lot!
Gabriel
Elf Eldritch Scoundrel Unchained Rogue 10
N Medium humanoid (elf)
Init +9
DEFENSE
AC 24, touch 19, flat-footed 17 (+4 Armor, +7 Dex, +1 Natural, +2 Deflection)
HP 80 (10d8 + 10 + 10 + 10)
+8 Fortitude, +15 Reflex, +5 Will
OFFENSE
Speed 30ft
Melee +3 elven curve blade +18/+13 (1d10+13/18-20/x2)
Special Attacks sneak attack (3d6)
Spells
0th (5/day) Acid Splash, Detect Magic, Read Magic, Light, Prestidigitation
1st (6/day) Snowball (x2), Color Spray (x2), Silent Image, Reduce Person
2nd (5/day) Sense Vitals (+3d6), Glitterdust, Mirror Image, Scorching Ray (x2)
3rd (4/day) Fly, Slow, Haste, Fireball
4th (2/day) Greater Invisibility (x2) [at level 12 and higher I don't need this spell anymore, so I will use Confusion and Enervation instead]
STATS
STR 7, DEX 25, CON 12, INT 18, WIS 10, CHA 7
BAB +7, CMB +5, CMD 22
Rogue talents 4) Vanishing Trick, 8) Slow Reactions, 12) Invisible Blade, 16) Hunter's Surprise, 20) ?
Abilities trapfinding, evasion, alarm sense, debilitating injury, rogue's edge (Stealth, Spellcraft)
Feats Rogue) Weapon Finesse, 1) Weapon Focus (Elven Curve Blade), 3) Point Blank Shot, 5) Accomplished Sneak Attacker, 7) Toughness, 9) Heighten Spell, 11) Iron Will, 13) Extra Rogue Talent (Improved Evasion), 15) Quicken Spell, 17) ?, 19) ?
Skills Stealth (+20), Knowledge (arcana) (+12), Spellcraft (+17), Perception (+13), Sleight of Hand (+20), Sense Motive (+8), Disable Device (+20), Escape Artist (+15), Acrobatics (+15), Diplomacy (+17)
Languages Human, Elven, Celestial, Draconic, Orc, Sylvan
Traits Reactionary, Clever Wordplay (Diplomacy)
Combat Gear Headband of Vast Intelligence (+2), Belt of Incredible Dexterity (+4), +3 Elven Curve Blade, +1 Mithral Chain Shirt, Ring of Protection (+2), Amulet of Natural Armor (+1), 5x Pearl of Power (1st level), Cloak of Resistance (+2)
Bag Gear Cloak of Elvenkind
Heroism. 10min/level, +2 all attacks and saves. No reason not to.
Sneak Attack isn't always the easiest thing to make work efficiently. By higher levels, invisibility is starting to get unreliable, and even at lower levels Vanishing Trick is only good for one attack.
The spell Dazzling Blade is pretty amazing, though it's only a level 1 will save spell. With Persistent Spell, Magical Lineage, Heighten Spell and so on, it can be pretty persuasive. Blinding is a very secure way to get all your Sneak Attacks in. I came up with a strange 5-class build a while ago that was built around being effective in melee, having some sneak attack, and having absolutely brutal Dazzling Blade DCs.
You could also look at using two weapons with feinting feats; the penalty for wielding two weapons isn't so bad on an Eldrtich Scoundrel, since they've got spells to boost attack that a normal Rogue can only dream of - Heroism being the obvious and easiest one, though Blade Tutor's Spirit is strong at removing penalties. Two-weapon does require a fair deal of feats though, since you really want Quick Draw.
I don't think I have the feats to spare for a good Two-weapon fighting build. Also, what makes Dazzling Blade better than, say, Color Spray or Glitterdust? Both of them also target Will saves and have an AoE instead of being single target. I'm also planning on taking the Blinded spell which is single target, but requires a successful Fortitude save. That way, I can target either Will or Fortitude with blinding effects depending on who I'm up against.
Also, you say Invisibility gets unreliable at higher levels; could you elaborate? I've never had a campaign go to level 10+ but we're soon starting one that most likely will. The way I understand it, there are a couple of counters to Invisibility, namely stuff like blindsense, tremorsense, scent, etc. If this is the main issue with Invisibility, I can take the Conceal Scent and Dampen Presence feats, which basically counter all of them. Except for tremorsense, but I can simply cast Fly on myself to counter that.
I realize that Vanishing Trick only works for a single attack, but at the meager cost of 5,000g I can get 5 Pearls of Power for 1st level, which makes it so I can cast it 10 times a day. That should be fine for the most part I think. If I need more attacks, I can always fall back on blinding effects or flanking, or I can just start blasting with my spells instead of trying to sneak attack.
I don't think I have the feats to spare for a good Two-weapon fighting build. Also, what makes Dazzling Blade better than, say, Color Spray or Glitterdust? Both of them also target Will saves and have an AoE instead of being single target. I'm also planning on taking the Blinded spell which is single target, but requires a successful Fortitude save. That way, I can target either Will or Fortitude with blinding effects depending on who I'm up against.
Also, you say Invisibility gets unreliable at higher levels; could you elaborate? I've never had a campaign go to level 10+ but we're soon starting one that most likely will. The way I understand it, there are a couple of counters to Invisibility, namely stuff like blindsense, tremorsense, scent, etc. If this is the main issue with Invisibility, I can take the Conceal Scent and Dampen Presence feats, which basically counter all of them. Except for tremorsense, but I can simply cast Fly on myself to counter that.
I realize that Vanishing Trick only works for a single attack, but at the meager cost of 5,000g I can get 5 Pearls of Power for 1st level, which makes it so I can cast it 10 times a day. That should be fine for the most part I think. If I need more attacks, I can always fall back on blinding effects or flanking, or I can just start blasting with my spells instead of trying to sneak attack.
Enemies that have True Seeing or some other way to see through Invisibility get more common as you go. Greater Invisibility is awesome until suddenly some big, hard-target creature is seeing you anyhow, and then... crap.
Casting Time 1 swift action
Duration 1 minute/levelThe wielder of a dazzling blade can discharge the spell into a blinding burst of silvery light as a free action.
Dazzling Blade is not only just a swift action to cast, but you can cast it way ahead of time and then fire it at someone with a free action. You can literally blind people with zero effort if you already had it running (like casting it on yourself when you cast Sense Vitals). Heck, if you already had it running and you fire it off as a free action and it fails... you can cast it and fire it off again with nothing more than a swift/free combo. If you're determined to blind a big boss, you can hit him with two Persistent Dazzling Blade spells in one round before attacking, forcing him to make four freakin' saves to not be blind.
Edit: the build I mentioned with 5 classes used Arcanist spellcasting abilities to grant Dazzling Blade a bonus +3DC while stacking Persistent Spell on it. Lights out.
Remember that dampen presence merely allows you to make a stealth check. You still need your stealth to beat their perception (without the invis bonus I think), you still need to take move actions to hide. It's great for sneaking around but not always so wonderful in combat.
Scent isn't really a big issue. It's too slow and short range to find you.
Vanishing trick making only one attack a sneak attack can be a problem once you get more than one attack per round. From 8th level on your current character build.
Remember that dampen presence merely allows you to make a stealth check. You still need your stealth to beat their perception (without the invis bonus I think), you still need to take move actions to hide. It's great for sneaking around but not always so wonderful in combat.
Scent isn't really a big issue. It's too slow and short range to find you.
Vanishing trick making only one attack a sneak attack can be a problem once you get more than one attack per round. From 8th level on your current character build.
Yeah, I just mentioned those feats in case they would help with what BadBird was talking about. But they don't so they're already gone! From level 12 onward I have Invisible Blade which makes Vanishing Trick work like Greater Invisibility, so at that point I can actually make multiple attacks off of a single Vanishing Trick. It seems to me that the only levels I may suffer from Vanishing Trick's single attack are levels 8 through 11, but I'm okay with that.
At level 10 I can simply cast Greater Invisibility on myself if necessary, so there's that. And I'm absolutely hooked on the idea of Dazzling Blade right now, which should also help a lot with getting off additional sneak attacks. I totally overlooked the fact that it was a swift action, which makes it so much more flexible.
Any more advice on building an eldritch scoundrel? I'm playing one right now in a Strange Aeon's campaign. He's a human and only second level, but I'm not really sure which rogue talents, feats or spells I should be getting for him as he levels up. I see some good suggestions here.
Right now I feel like he's super gimpy. I'm using the unchained rogue. I have him fighting with a rapier (though I just scored a +2 short sword, so I think he'll be using that now). He has weapon finesse to hit, but since he doesn't get doesn't get sneak attack until level three, and he doesn't get the ability to use dex to his damage until level 3, his damage out put sucks. His strength is 8, so even with a +2 sword he does 1d6+1 damage. The most useful thing he can do right now is cast color spray, but he only has 3 spells per day, and I like to keep one for mage armor.
At second level I got a rogue talent, but I had no idea what to pick for him, so I got one that gave him a +4 to perception. The rational was that I would max out perception since Strange Aeons seems like it might have a lot of investigation, and perception is probably the most utilized skill in the game.
I didn't know what feats to get him either, so far he has dodge, and skill focus (bluff). I was thinking that I wanted him to be kind of face type.
Oh yeah, his stats are his stats are: Str 9, Dex 14, Con 10, Int 16, Wis 12, Cha 12. Not sure if I made good choices on that front, but it's kind of late now.
He has mainly enchantment and illusion type spells (e.g., sleep, charm, color spray)
Yeah, you're going have troubles with that build. Your low strength will resolve itself once you reach 3rd level and get finesse training proper, but it's going to sting until then. The bigger problem is that mediocre dexterity score. For an Eldritch Scoundrel, 16 is about as low as you want to go and you really want that juicy 18 if you can afford it. I'm not sure whether you rolled for stats or did a point buy, but either way what you have here is going to be very hard to work with.
In terms of feats, Skill Focus (Bluff) isn't very helpful. You need to be focusing on combat-relevant feats. Weapon Focus is going to be necessary to supplement your failing dexterity, and Accomplished Sneak Attacker can be used to bolster your damage output somewhat. You also may want to consider weapon proficiency in the Elven Curve Blade, since it's a really good weapon for the Eldritch Trickster, but that conflicts with your current (very awesome) weapon.
For Rogue talents, you absolutely want the Vanishing Trick. This lets you cast the Vanish spell on yourself as a swift action by sacrificing a 1st level spell slot. This is insanely good, and every Eldritch Scoundrel should take it as soon as possible.
Also, Enchantment and Illusion spells are going to fall off dramatically for the Eldritch Trickster at higher levels. They're great at level 1-3 so keep using 'em for now, but your DC's progress much more slowly a single-class wizard so it'll become harder and harder to make these spells work. You want to move towards buff spells, utility spells, and spells that do not offer a save (or have strong effects even if the enemy does save). Fortunately as a prepared spellcaster this isn't too hard, just be mindful to learn spells like these as you go so you're ready to make that transition.
I could probably convince my DM to let me retroactively swap my Dex and Int, but I wanted the bonus spells and the extra skill points, so that's why I went with the high Int over the high Dex. I wanted to keep my Wis and Cha somewhat decent since I want him to have good social skills and I figured I couldn't afford to gimp his Will save, as I'm sure I'll be making lots of those.
I'm not really trying to build him as a DPR combat rogue. We have a three person party that features a barbarian and an oracle. I'm trying to fill the role of both skill monkey and arcane spell caster, so melee combatant is sort of tertiary role for him. That being said, I would like to find ways to make him somewhat effective in combat.
Eldritch scoundrel isn't proficient with shields or armour, and the unchained rogue gets a rogue talent at 2nd level, so that's why I took one.
I'll look into that vanishing trick one for level 4.
I was doing a 15 point build, but maybe I messed up my stat calculations somehow.
I could probably convince my DM to let me retroactively swap my Dex and Int, but I wanted the bonus spells and the extra skill points
That's perfectly understandable, and 16 would be ideal if you could afford it, but given how low and broadly distributed your stats are you really can't afford to put your highest number in intelligence. Dexterity has to take top priority on an Eldritch Scoundrel.
I'm not really trying to build him as a DPR combat rogue.
I'm less concerned about damage and more concerned about being able to land those blows. The whole attraction of the Eldritch Scoundrel archetype is getting the Unchained Rogue debilitating strikes and finesse training with 6 level casting. You don't need to be some kind of min-maxed DPR terror, but you do want to be able to hit stuff with average rolls so you can consistently contribute to combat, and that means shoring up your attack bonus to compensate for the Rogue's mediocre 3/4 progression.
If you're not so hot on combat and would prefer to focus more on spellcasting, then you might be happier with an Arcane Trickster. This approach will give you spellcasting that's only 1 level behind a single-class Wizard (use the Accomplished Sneak Attacker feat so you can qualify with only one level of Rogue) while also giving you a very roguish flair. You will want to raise your intelligence to at least 18 if you do that, since DC's are very important for any primary caster.
Eldritch scoundrel isn't proficient with shields or armour
The trick is that you only ever wear armor that has an armor check penalty of 0. The penalty for wearing armor you aren't proficient with is equal to the armor check penalty... meaning there is no penalty and you can freely use this equipment without proficiency.
It was pointed out that I messed up my point buy (he was supposed to be 15 point buy, but I had him at 13), so I tweaked him a little. I think the math works now.
His stats are now:
str 8, Dex 16, Con 10, Int 16, Wis 10, Cha 12
I realize his Cha should be more of a dump stat, but characterwise I want him to be a somewhat charismatic scoundrel who can be the party face, so I'm keeping the 12 Cha, even though I'd probably be better off having that in Con or Wisdom.
I'll take your advice and pick up Weapon Focus sometime soon, but I'm not sure if it's better to take that at 3rd level or Accomplished Sneak Attack. I'm kind of leaning towards the Accomplished Sneak Attack.
I realize his Cha should be more of a dump stat, but characterwise I want him to be a somewhat charismatic scoundrel who can be the party face, so I'm keeping the 12 Cha, even though I'd probably be better off having that in Con or Wisdom.
I was going to mention it, but you've more or less covered the tradeoff. You may want to take Toughness and Iron Will eventually to compensate, but right now other feats take priority.
I'll take your advice and pick up Weapon Focus sometime soon, but I'm not sure if it's better to take that at 3rd level or Accomplished Sneak Attack. I'm kind of leaning towards the Accomplished Sneak Attack.
Both are fine choices. Personally I'd take Weapon Focus because I like consistency, but if you want raw power then Accomplished Sneak Attacker will get you more DPR (provided you can get sneak attacks consistently, of course). Just be aware that Weapon Focus does scale better as you level up and will be preferable when you hit higher levels.
Another one worth consideration is the Elven Curve Blade proficiency. The Elven Curve Blade is one of the few weapons that can be finessed and used in two hands, and also has the highest damage dice of any finessable weapon. This adds up to a very significant damage increase, but it's tricky because you currently have a +2 Short Sword and I'm doubtful you can find anything nearly as good as that in the near future, much less for an exotic and rare weapon.
Bummer. Bye Bye Uncanny Observer. On the plus side, since our party only has 3 PCs, my DM decided to let us rejig our stats with a 20 point buy. So now I have:
Str 8, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 16, Wis 12, Cha 13
Which is an improvement, and once he hits third level, he'll be much more functional.
Your archetype (eldritch scoundrel) trades away normal rogue talent progression. You get a talent at 4th level and every 4 leves after that.Eldritch scoundrel isn't proficient with shields or armour, and the unchained rogue gets a rogue talent at 2nd level, so that's why I took one.
I'll look into that vanishing trick one for level 4.
I was doing a 15 point build, but maybe I messed up my stat calculations somehow.
What do you mean when you say, "Weapon Focus scales better as you level up"? As far as I can tell it's a flat +1 bonus to hit on a specific weapon. There isn't any scaling that I can see.
I realize his Cha should be more of a dump stat, but characterwise I want him to be a somewhat charismatic scoundrel who can be the party face, so I'm keeping the 12 Cha, even though I'd probably be better off having that in Con or Wisdom.I was going to mention it, but you've more or less covered the tradeoff. You may want to take Toughness and Iron Will eventually to compensate, but right now other feats take priority.
I'll take your advice and pick up Weapon Focus sometime soon, but I'm not sure if it's better to take that at 3rd level or Accomplished Sneak Attack. I'm kind of leaning towards the Accomplished Sneak Attack.Both are fine choices. Personally I'd take Weapon Focus because I like consistency, but if you want raw power then Accomplished Sneak Attacker will get you more DPR (provided you can get sneak attacks consistently, of course). Just be aware that Weapon Focus does scale better as you level up and will be preferable when you hit higher levels.
Another one worth consideration is the Elven Curve Blade proficiency. The Elven Curve Blade is one of the few weapons that can be finessed and used in two hands, and also has the highest damage dice of any finessable weapon. This adds up to a very significant damage increase, but it's tricky because you currently have a +2 Short Sword and I'm doubtful you can find anything nearly as good as that in the near future, much less for an exotic and rare weapon.
Rogues cant get weapon focus at 1st level right ?
Very true, they don't have +1 BAB (unless they're multiclassed & the 1st level just refers to the rogue class).
Though why are you pointing this out here? This discussion has been over for a little more than 8 months.
Since you are using an Unchained Rogue, I can safely assume this is for a home game, right?
VMC magus will not serve you wrong. The feats Point Blank Shot, Iron Will, and Heighten Spell don't seem to be helping you. Something like Arcane Accuracy (INT to attack) and the Arcane Pool would. It'll also save you money.
I'd also recommend the Dimensional Savant feat chain, as it enables full round teleporting pounce which lets you flank with yourself thus triggering sneak attack and fixing the problem with running a melee character in the first place all at the same time. To that end, keep Heighten Spell as a prerequisite for Preferred Spell and gain the ability to convert any and all 4th level and above slots into Dimension Door spontaneously meaning you can telepounce all the time.
Your spells are there for amazing utility, not combat application. You are not a blaster. Mage armor, shield, blur, mirror image, displacement, and eventually the invisibilities will all be there for you in combat, but don't focus on things like Snowball or Scorching Ray. Then you can ditch all those pearls of power and save some money.
Balance your stats out. I'm not gonna do the math right now, but I'm pretty sure you can't have all that gear without being encumbered. STR 13 to buy in Power Attack and Furious Focus is great for a medium BAB character, as you can still use 1.5xDEX for damage but get to also add Power Attack on top of sneak attack for some stellar damage. Even more so if you took something like Arcane Accuracy or Accurate Strikes through magus VMC.
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Rogues cant get weapon focus at 1st level right ?Very true, they don't have +1 BAB (unless they're multiclassed & the 1st level just refers to the rogue class).
Though why are you pointing this out here? This discussion has been over for a little more than 8 months.
It's still a credited response well over a year later.
Also, elves don't automatically get proficiency with the elven curve blade, they just treat it as a martial weapon. Which rogues (unchained or otherwise) don't automatically get access to.
Unless OP wants to take the heirloom weapon trait his first feat is getting burned on Martial Weapon Proficiency if this build is going to work.