Character Concepts most Hamstrung / Unsupported by the rules?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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gustavo iglesias wrote:
Ryan Freire wrote:
Kobold Cleaver wrote:
I think there's an important line to draw there. Does it truly make the concept unplayable just because it has a major weakness—especially if the weakness doesn't contradict the concept? For instance, Raistlin isn't an unplayable concept, even if his 7 Con is a major weakness.
I don't think so, but i DO think that needing a 15 dex to build a character that uses a dex max + 1 suit of armor counts a fair bit toward calling the concept hamstrung.

Only if said armored sword and shield fighter isn't a fighter. Fighters get Armor Training, so even in a full plate, they use the DEX.

A Sword and Shield Paladin, however, is pretty well hammered by the rules. Not only they are MAD as hell, but they lack the feats (or class abilities) to support this combat style, and in fact, the shield hampers them A LOT, because a (heavy) shield interrupts their ability to use lay on hands and spells. I know, they can use a light shield. And I'm perfectly OK with that limitation to bards or clerics. But, you know, the paladin in heavy armor with a crusader's heraldic or kite shield is pretty thematic. And not supported at all by the class.

A simple class ability at lvl 4 that says "Paladins can use somatic components and lay on hands when holding a heavy shield" would work well enough.

Don't worry, you can take Ascetic Style and combine it with Crusader's Fist to use your lay on hands offensively.

It only requires about 4 feats and the ability to use monk weapons, what a steal! :D

EDIT: alternatively you could dip a level in Master of Many Styles monk to get a free style feat and Imp. Unarmed Strike,and it gives you proficiency with the Temple sword (which has a d8 and the trip feature)


Athaleon wrote:
As far as I know there is no really effective way to build a "marksman" style character that makes powerful well-aimed shots (let alone actually using the Sniping applications of the Stealth skill). It will always be behind the spammy archers / gunners even before you take into account Deflect Arrows and Cut From The Air.

Does it have to be bow/arrow?

You can have a well aimed Gunner.
Like a Large (enlarge potion) using a Double hackbut (to avoid being knocked prone, weirdly as long as you are large, instead of larger than the weapon size).
Then you just need to snipe and boom: kill them.

Shadow Lodge

Crossbowman builds et al., guns without going gunslinger are not the best, thrown weapons, cavalier focused on tactics rather than mounted combat, martial non-barbarian classes focused on action option diversity in combat, nonunchained monks, ki sorcerer (not neccecarily a sorc class so much as a character who uses a bunch of ki as their engagement tool) builds, dual thrown weapons (think viking throwing two spears at once), combat maneuver spec'ing without magic, teamwork based builds/martial supports, slinger builds (the warpriest makes this a little easier but diversity is needed).

I'd argue that a lot of martial builds suffer from a lack of feat diversity that would allow them to really fill new niches. Because of this one often ends up having to just take the same feat paths with a different weapon, forcing them to have to try to play the role they want with tools not designed for it and therefore compete with the most "efficient" options that exist already.

For example, the crossbow sniper basically doesn't have any feats or gear designed and prices specifically to fill that niche so players have to use the options and feats designed for bow machinegunners and, because they lack options that make that single target burst the sniper needs possible they are basically a less efficient archer, and feel punished and pigeonholed into being suboptimal not just as an archer, but as the role they want to fulfill.

Shadow Lodge

Starbuck_II wrote:
Athaleon wrote:
As far as I know there is no really effective way to build a "marksman" style character that makes powerful well-aimed shots (let alone actually using the Sniping applications of the Stealth skill). It will always be behind the spammy archers / gunners even before you take into account Deflect Arrows and Cut From The Air.

Does it have to be bow/arrow?

You can have a well aimed Gunner.
Like a Large (enlarge potion) using a Double hackbut (to avoid being knocked prone, weirdly as long as you are large, instead of larger than the weapon size).
Then you just need to snipe and boom: kill them.

Enlarge person does not effect ranged ammunition, with the ball returning to normal size as it leaves the barrel. It's part of why you don't see archers doing this much. As for just a regular hackbut 2d12 every 1-2 rounds isn't much and requires multiple shots to really put anything down past 2nd-3rd level. This runs counter to the marksmen who's looking to expend multiple actions to do serious damage with a single action, rather than through multiple smaller strikes. This gets worse when you look at bow builds which are not only cheaper but give them more benefit (many shot, rapid shot, etc.). Without some feats to amend this, you're basically just flinging slightly bigger shots than other nonbows but still doing less damage than a bow in a single turn but with more delay.

2nd, the cost of buying a double hackbut and squeezing any good out of it basically removes its viability as by the time you can reasonably afford it and ammunition with any consistency you're being outpaced by the bow which you are basically also spec'd to use. What these builds need are more feats to boost marksmen that cannot be used or be useful in the traditional rapid shot, many shot, flurry that is the current ranged combat setup.


I'm curious about whether casting Permanency on an Enlarge person spell would keep the weapon permanently enlarged. Probably not, but that still wouldn't stop you from using a naturally large bow, which you can then use Gravity Bow on to get a decent amount of base weapon damage. (I specify bow, because I can't imagine finding a large gun easily, and crafting a large double hackbut of your own would take forever. A bow at least, you can probably hunt down some large humanoids that use bows.)

Combine the Enlarge Person and Gravity Bow with Vital Strike feats as you get them and you have a decent damage output. A rapid shot build is still generally better, but I can see this keeping pretty close, and it'd particularly excel against fights with DR. This also seems like one of the better ways to take advantage of crossbows, incidentally, though a Longbow is still better most of the time.

I always like Vital Strike/Natural Weapon/Size Increase builds though, even if they don't keep up 100% with iterative attack builds, because I hate the full round action economy. I consider lower damage per turn to be more than worth trading away in order to not have to stand in place each turn.


The problem isn't the bow, it's the arrows.

I've seen some ranger guides suggest having your AC carry around a quiver of large arrows that you take off of them after you get enlarged.

What always sort of struck me about sniping/single shot and other various niche builds (like unarmored and so on) is just how little even attempt there is at making them workable.

There just aren't many feats at all for builds like these.. and what options there are are often weirdly mutually exclusive (i.e. focused shot, shot on the run and vital strike are all incompatible with each other, etc.). It's weird.


PK the Dragon wrote:
I'm curious about whether casting Permanency on an Enlarge person spell would keep the weapon permanently enlarged. Probably not, but that still wouldn't stop you from using a naturally large bow, which you can then use Gravity Bow on to get a decent amount of base weapon damage. (I specify bow, because I can't imagine finding a large gun easily, and crafting a large double hackbut of your own would take forever. A bow at least, you can probably hunt down some large humanoids that use bows.)

It doesn't, the spell only enlarges items in your possession when the spell is cast. Anything that leaves you possession shrinks down again. You would have to recast the spell with the item in your possession to get it enlarged again.

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