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Pathfinder has tons and tons of options, but I know theres still quite a few character concepts out there that the rules either have hobbled really badly or just never bothered supporting.
The Sniper is probably one of the best examples of something the rules constantly get in the way of, you need to jump through a lot of hoops just to be competent at it because of how stealth works. Stealth in general honestly is really hard to do if you plan to drop any bodies because the system really doesn't want you to one shot things out of stealth, single attack damage generally doesn't keep up with HP very well, so being a Corvo style character is pretty hard.
I also really like the idea of the Eldritch Archer, but my god bow rules make them MAD as all hell. They need Dex to hit, Str for damage, Int for spells, and Con to stay alive, and they can't really go the typical archer route of making tons of attacks because casting spells through or alongside arrows generally requires a full round. Focused Shot would be great if it didn't require a standard to activate, the most you can hope is your DM lets you use it with ranged spellstrike/ranged spell combat anyway.
And of course, there's the Pure shapeshifter, The copycat, the mimic, the guy whose only skills are your skills. This really doesn't exist in pathfinder, and the way polymorph spells give you creature abilities is awful, they could at least update the spells so that when new creatures come out you dont need DM permission to take their abilities that aren't on the list.
What other concepts have you found the rules getting in the way of, or just straight up ignoring?
There isn't (as far as I know) an equivalent to the Paladin or Ranger who is an intelligence-based prepared arcane caster (with a spellbook).
There isn't (as far as I know) an equivalent to the Paladin or Ranger who is an intelligence-based prepared arcane caster (with a spellbook).
Child of Acavna and Amaznen does this. Not utterly perfectly, but it's a four-spell-level, INT-based, spellbook-using arcane caster.
Highly-mobile fighters?
Wuxia-style martial artists?
I'm sure I could fake these with spellcasting, but that's not really what I want.
Mobile Fighter
Where some fighters focus on strength and raw power, the mobile fighter relies on swiftness and mobility, gliding across the battlefield like a steel whirlwind and leaving destruction in his wake.And several monk archetypes are wuxia, imho. what did you want from them?
There isn't (as far as I know) an equivalent to the Paladin or Ranger who is an intelligence-based prepared arcane caster (with a spellbook).
Eldritch Knight
There isn't (as far as I know) an equivalent to the Paladin or Ranger who is an intelligence-based prepared arcane caster (with a spellbook).Eldritch Knight
Although certainly a fearsome prestige class, not even remotely what I was talking about. The "Child of Acavna and Amaznen" is much, much closer... Though it's a shame it isn't worth using since it strips more than half of the fighter's class features and gives them s!%& in return.
By "Equivalent" I mean a base class with a d10 hit die, full base attack bonus, and the ability to cast up to 4th level arcane spells in heavy armor (as a prepared, intelligence-based spellcaster which keeps a spellbook).
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Throwers.
I have always wanted to make a character who throws Axes. However, it takes way to many Feats for the build to even be respectable. About the only way I can see pulling it off is finding a class with many skill points and other features which would give me things to do to be semi-useful in PFS play.
Ranger or Slayer "might" be able to pull it off, but I would prefer the Ranger for the eventual spellcasting. Even that isn't until level four.
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Probably the same reason there is no arcane equivalent to the cleric (full casting, d8 HD, 3/4 BAB, armor proficiency).
Because obviously arcane spells are considered more potent, so you have to give up more in the class to maintain balance (relative to divine spells).
Clerics getting a better basic profile had nothing to do with the Arcane Spell list being better, and everything to do with facts that:
1) Most healing spells are Touch range, so you have to be in melee to use them. If you are in melee, your gonna be expected to contribute. Ergo, medium BaB, armor, and enough HP to actually take a hit.2) Nobody wants to be stuck playing the "heal-bot" so they were purposely made more powerful to encourage people to actually play them. 3rd edition D&D wasn't intended to be a PvP game, so the classes didn't actually have to be balanced against one another so long as each one could fill a distinct role in the party.
That fact that clerics and druids remain better than wizards is simply an unfortunate artifact of 3rd edition.
Throwers.
I have always wanted to make a character who throws Axes. However, it takes way to many Feats for the build to even be respectable. About the only way I can see pulling it off is finding a class with many skill points and other features which would give me things to do to be semi-useful in PFS play.
Ranger or Slayer "might" be able to pull it off, but I would prefer the Ranger for the eventual spellcasting. Even that isn't until level four.
I was going to say the same. Using slings and throwing things is really hobbled.
I'd also like to see an arcane style divine caster like the archivist from 3.5 - that was, hands down, my favourite class in 3.5 and I was really sad to not see it come forward with horror adventures. (Thought it would be fitting since Archivist came out in "heroes of horror).
It was a bit powerful if the GM let it be since it could learn divine spells from any class as long as it could find the spell written down - but still not as strong as a pure wizard is in pathfinder.
There just isn't a good class or mechanics to get that flavour...
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I'm understand it's quite difficult to use sling staffs effectively.
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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You know how in adventure movies, you've usually got a party of greenhorns and then that one seasoned adventurer who's already been around the block and isn't surprised by anything and is properly prepared for all the weird crap they run into (and provides helpful exposition on each such encounter by explaining it to the others)?
Yeah, apparently the only way you're allowed to play that character past like 3rd level or so is as a spellcaster who carries an assortment of scroll of overcome obstacle variants. If instead of a wizard or bard you wanted to do a version of this character who overcomes the same obstacles via grit and wit, well, tough.
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Shapeshifters. Nor wild shapers, shapeshifters.
In response to the "Corvo style character," I will point out that using the optional massive damage rules makes this a LOT easier to do. It's still not easy, and you probably aren't doing it at low levels anyway, but let's be honest here: Corvo was not a 1st level character when he started that game, and his special powers were either him multi classing, prestige classing, or gaining mythic ranks.
That doesn't help if you want to build a stealth assassin for PFS, but it could for a home game.
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Characters that hurt themselves when using magic. Actually hurt themselves, like wounds open up or burns form. Kineticist is close, but that's light bruising at best.
Spheres of Power has options for this at least, and Grittier Rules has an optional rule where spells cost HP and spell slots, but so far nothing I'm aware of in Pathfinder can replicate a character with so much magic or is so untrained they hurt themselves using it.
...yes, I played such a character once in a dice-less game. It was pretty fun, actually.
Knife thrower. As in the guy who runs up, throws a pair of knives, and sticks the enemy to the wall by putting a knife throw both shirt sleeves. Or the guy who throws a knife into your foot, pinning you to the ground when you charge at him. The guy who can put the knife anywhere within throwing distance.
The best that I can see for a knife thrower is a human vigilante.
lvl 1: point blank shot, precise shot
lvl 2: returning weapon
The issue is that the chasis is a vigilante, which is a very specific type of character. And knife throwing in general is really bad. 10ft range just makes it untenable. It's like being a reach character, only without the ability to power attack or do combat maneuvers...
Knife thrower. As in the guy who runs up, throws a pair of knives, and sticks the enemy to the wall by putting a knife throw both shirt sleeves. Or the guy who throws a knife into your foot, pinning you to the ground when you charge at him. The guy who can put the knife anywhere within throwing distance.How about an unchained monk with deer horn knives?
What do the deer horn knives do? Looking them up I don't see anything that lets them do ranged combat maneuvers.
You could do a high level mythic time travel campaign wherein the PCs have possession of the sceptic of ages
Before that I don't think it's possible.
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Pathfinder has tons and tons of options, but I know theres still quite a few character concepts out there that the rules either have hobbled really badly or just never bothered supporting.
Pathfinder never made any promises about supporting every conceivable character type... even in the adventure fantasy genre.
That said it's hard to find a reasonable character that you can't make with all the material that's out there. For most concepts, you'll find a multitude of roads to get to any destination at this point.
The game is fantasy based swords and sorcery, the idea is that you have a character is basically humanoid. The farther away you get from the base assumption, the more issues you'll have, but that's not a fault of the system.
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Characters that hurt themselves when using magic. Actually hurt themselves, like wounds open up or burns form. Kineticist is close, but that's light bruising at best.
Spheres of Power has options for this at least, and Grittier Rules has an optional rule where spells cost HP and spell slots, but so far nothing I'm aware of in Pathfinder can replicate a character with so much magic or is so untrained they hurt themselves using it.
...yes, I played such a character once in a dice-less game. It was pretty fun, actually.
Man, I wish that all casters in PF were like that. Losing HP for each spell cast. I'd make it nonlethal damage to reduce spontaneous-mage-explosions.
So... 1d6 nonlethal damage per level of spell cast. Double HP gained back if the spell kills a foe.
So a lvl 1 mage. He starts off with d6 hit dice + con. Let's say he has 14con and favored class bonus. So that is 9hp. So in this example, he casts armor on himself. He rolls a 4, so he takes 4 points of nonlethal damage. Combat starts, and he casts magic missile. He rolls for damage and hurts the enemy. He then rolls for his own nonlethal damage, and rolls a 5. So he takes 5 more points of nonlethal damage, for a total of 9. He has overworked himself casting spells, and is now staggered.
The next round comes about. He can cast magic missile again...but there is a risk here. The enemy is about to die, and if he does die then he'll heal his nonlethal damage. If he fails to kill the enemy, the spell will knock him unconscious.
----
Magic is already game breakingly powerful. Even at relatively low levels, martials are often completely overshadowed. Need to pick a lock? Forget the rogue. The caster's got it covered. Need to sneak into the enemy camp and see whats up? No problem. The caster will do it. Got the 2-3 combats per adventuring day? Let's nuke it from orbit.
With this, casters need to think carefully about what they do and when. Because knocking yourself out means taking yourself out of the fight.
I'd also add in a spell that heals nonlethal damage for themselves. But make it cost spell slots, so it is still a choice.
Now need to pick a lock? Yeah, rogue, go for it. I don't want to waste my energy. Magical trap? Yeah, let the rogue do it. That'd take a spell slot and a ton of nonlethal damage.
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A decent Harsk
I'm understand it's quite difficult to use sling staffs effectively.
Other than a halfling warpriest with the Slipslinger Style feat, pretty much.
Shapeshifters. Nor wild shapers, shapeshifters.
True. The metamorph alchemist in Ultimate Intrigue is "OK," but a bit limited.
Other options such as the mooncursed barbarian are even more limited.
The least limited variation is basically ranger (wild hunter)/wizard (Transmutation/Shapeshift)/eldritch knight to learn all the polymorph spells and the Multimorph arcane discovery. But almost all of the shapeshifting is through spells.
I'm understand it's quite difficult to use sling staffs effectively.Other than a halfling warpriest with the Slipslinger Style feat, pretty much.
Glad they finally fixed that, but it is a bit annoying that there's a feat tax to fix all sling content they screwed up with their "sling-staffs are not slings" FAQ. But I guess that's a way to make more people buy the WMH.
Anyway, I'll toss in another vote for Pathfinder not playing nice with ranged weapons other than longbows. Getting anywhere close to competitive damage from a sling, crossbow, or thrown weapons takes either a lot of feats, heavily restricted race/class options, or both. And still probably won't be as good as the longbow even with all that extra investment.
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Lots of weapons require a lot of commitment to be useful. Like nets, bolas and bladed scarf. Elysium forbid you try to use all of them.
Ever read Weapons of the Gods? :D
And several monk archetypes are wuxia, imho. what did you want from them?
No, what kind of wuxia are we talking about here? Or are we talking about xianxia with cultivators doing big high magic things? (the more immediate popculture example that kind of borders on this concept would be DBZ, where they 'too fast too see' and 'gather the energy of an entire planet for a big killer move').
If it is the later, some kineticists might work- especially the elemental annhilator who could do things like summon a half dozen water arrows and then going into a melee attack.
Of course, vanilla kineticists are also high magical terrors- a good earth user can threaten entire armies, quite personally. Using DR, high speed form ride the blast (which allows hit and runs that lead to a quick get away to use wands of CLW), and large AoO's that it could fire all day, they can personally annihilate armies. Not 'summon disaster' or 'kill the leadership'- direct murder of thousands.
I suppose that is a concept this system cannot handle well- direct conflict against huge numbers of enemies, especially in protracted combat. The game is meant more for small, short, but highly intense fights. You can fight gods, but it is usually over in under a minute. You don't see fights where you are spending hours chopping down or shooting hundreds of enemy soldiers. Most spells have a limit measured in minutes, and most of the long term use ones are more general buffs. Heck, even dragons could be taken down near instantly by a few hundred level 1 wizard interns if they all use ray of cold cantrips (assuming the dragon doesn't have a resist, such as a fire dragon).
The idea of gods fighting for weeks or even years on end is evocative... but obviously not actually interesting to play, if only because it would obviously take hours and be representative or repetitive at best. And while the kineticist killing armies is a cool idea... that is more for a villain to make him a threat- actually doing it is just 'pop in, shoot some AoEs, and then pop out before they can start shooting arrows at you'.
The short intense fights leave an easily consumed impact.
Lots of weapons require a lot of commitment to be useful. Like nets, bolas and bladed scarf. Elysium forbid you try to use all of them.
Honestly, in a real world equivalent, it should be difficult to use weapons effectively unless one devotes a lot of time and effort.
Weapon master used to be a viable concept for the fighter. Now so many classes can do so many more things at such lower levels (compared to 2nd Ed. and early 3rd Ed.) that a concept like weapon master that hasn't fully mastered a weapon in 3 levels seems like a slug by comparison.
Unfortunately in my head, the base 3.5 fighter with bravery added in and Unearthed Arcana's defense bonus in play (plus survival as a class skill) should be the baseline character class from which all other characters are derived.
Nothing should have better combat capabilities than a fighter
Nothing should be more knowledgeable than a Wizard (2 skill points is an issue I agree)
Nothing should be sneakier than a thief (rogue is so vague).
And nothing should track better than a ranger.
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Zhuge Liang. You can almost kinda/sorta mock him up with a Bard build, but without more robust mass combat rules...
Movie-style pirate. Guns cost too much to carry around in sets of three or more so you can shoot, drop the gun and just pull another loaded one. (This one can be GM-fiated, of course, but guns cost what they do for a reason)
Fflewder Fflamm, Orpheus, and other bards who don't cast spells but do perform music with the odd bit of magic to it.
Zhuge Liang. You can almost kinda/sorta mock him up with a Bard build, but without more robust mass combat rules...
Movie-style pirate. Guns cost too much to carry around in sets of three or more so you can shoot, drop the gun and just pull another loaded one. (This one can be GM-fiated, of course, but guns cost what they do for a reason)
Fflewder Fflamm, Orpheus, and other bards who don't cast spells but do perform music with the odd bit of magic to it.
Wow, a spell-less bard with paladin/abilities(similar to mercies - but not healing related) added onto it's inspire abilities. That would be a great way to beef up the bard but not rely on spells.
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Lots of weapons require a lot of commitment to be useful. Like nets, bolas and bladed scarf. Elysium forbid you try to use all of them.Honestly, in a real world equivalent, it should be difficult to use weapons effectively unless one devotes a lot of time and effort.
Yeah I mean it's not like people can just shoot fire out of their hands at the beginning of their adventuring life or anything. Is that a net? Damn that must be hard to use.
Flying Caviler. That is one that I cannot make. Tried with a druid to get the flying mount and was unable to stack the feats correctly, also tough to get the right sized mount to do much unless you are tiny. Using a bird.
Flying Caviler. That is one that I cannot make. Tried with a druid to get the flying mount and was unable to stack the feats correctly, also tough to get the right sized mount to do much unless you are tiny. Using a bird.
Isn't that one just 1-2 feats away?
Monstrous mount and and monstrous mount mastery? Those seem to cover it. Then, you could grab something like a griffon (which for practical purposes, is little different from a flying lion, complete with pounce).
Yes that is true. However they show pictures of a Gnome with an eagle/hawk of medium size. This is what I am looking for not something that cannot fit into a house.
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A decent HarskCrossbow anything that isn't a Gunslinger (Bolt Ace) is bad after the first few levels. I'd personally enjoy support for different crossbow build types - a version that turns crossbows into single shot per round snipey weapons (that does competitive damage), maybe with status effects tacked on, and a bow-like repeating crossbow or dual crossbow sort or build. But if I had to pick one, I'd prefer the one that makes crossbows single shot weapons, to differentiate them from longbows. The only real way to make crossbows viable at this point is to stick them on a Bolt Ace, which basically turns them into strange, 19-20/x2 bows that require 5 levels to come online. I'd love some sort of baseline crossbow buff that lets them remain usable as weapons later on.
Crossbow is not "bad" at all in PF.
It's just that the Longbow is way better. (which is historically correct)
That's not that same at all. Sure, if you wanna be a dedicated archer and do the best DPS, no doubt Longbow is your choice, not Crossbow.
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A decent HarskCrossbow anything that isn't a Gunslinger (Bolt Ace) is bad after the first few levels. I'd personally enjoy support for different crossbow build types - a version that turns crossbows into single shot per round snipey weapons (that does competitive damage), maybe with status effects tacked on, and a bow-like repeating crossbow or dual crossbow sort or build. But if I had to pick one, I'd prefer the one that makes crossbows single shot weapons, to differentiate them from longbows. The only real way to make crossbows viable at this point is to stick them on a Bolt Ace, which basically turns them into strange, 19-20/x2 bows that require 5 levels to come online. I'd love some sort of baseline crossbow buff that lets them remain usable as weapons later on.Crossbow is not "bad" at all in PF.
It's just that the Longbow is way better.
That distinction is not worth making. After all, the crossbow is bad relative to other options in the game ... like longbows.
Cu Chulainn
I would argue that Cú Chulainn with his berserking style of fighting would fall under Barbarian.
My friend and myself have always felt that there was a definite lack of blending magic and nature, such as might be seen with the elves. Rangers with arcane spells instead of divine, perhaps Wizards with favored terrain and wild empathy. That sort of thing.
A character that has a themed magical style... fire, cold, lightning, etc. Why should one have to spend extra feats for what is essentially an energy descriptor? Stories seem to enjoy having Fire Wizards and Ice Witches and the like.
Any magic caster that uses something other than the Vancian magic system that is currently in place. The 'Word of Power' magic system is under-powered in comparison.
A Gunslinger archetype for the Alchemist. There seems to be a gun toting variety of nearly every other class, except the Alchemist. When it feels like to me they would be exceptionally complimentary. Bombs and guns? There's definitely a common thread there.