Character Concepts most Hamstrung / Unsupported by the rules?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Liberty's Edge

*Unarmored/naked barbarian - There's an archetype for this trope but it's awful.
*A way to apply strength to AC - Related to above. If Dex can apply to attack and damage rolls strength should be able to do it too. Apply feat taxes as necessary.
*A dragon disciple-like prestige class that doesn't force a character into a specific theme.
*Another full bab base class besides paladin.
*Other ways to get divine grace besides paladin.
*Other ways to get full progression pay on hands besides paladin.
*Other ways to get smite X besides paladin.


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Kobold Cleaver wrote:
I think there's an important line to draw there. Does it truly make the concept unplayable just because it has a major weakness—especially if the weakness doesn't contradict the concept? For instance, Raistlin isn't an unplayable concept, even if his 7 Con is a major weakness.

I don't think so, but i DO think that needing a 15 dex to build a character that uses a dex max + 1 suit of armor counts a fair bit toward calling the concept hamstrung.


Feral wrote:

{. . .}

*A dragon disciple-like prestige class that doesn't force a character into a specific theme.
{. . .}

Actually, I'd like to see a series of prestige classes inspired by Dragon Disciple but with different themes. Fiendish Aspirant, Djinni Disciple, Witchblood Transformant, etc.


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Feral wrote:
*A way to apply strength to AC - Related to above. If Dex can apply to attack and damage rolls strength should be able to do it too. Apply feat taxes as necessary.

Heavy Armor.

Liberty's Edge

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And characters that want to use Dex for combat should just be archers.

Dismissive arguments aside, it's still a character concept that's completely unsupported.


Feral wrote:


*Other ways to get smite X besides paladin.

This one's doable.

Chevalier (Prestige Class).

Champion of the Faith (Warpriest archetype).

Hellknight (Prestige Class).

Just to name three.

Feral wrote:
*Another full bab base class besides paladin.

Unsure what you mean by this one. There are a lot of other full BaB classes.

Liberty's Edge

I was looking for base classes with smite but Warpriest definitely counts.

I missed a word for that second one. It's supposed to read 'Another full bab base class with good will saves besides paladin'.


Sundakan wrote:
Feral wrote:


*Other ways to get smite X besides paladin.

This one's doable.

Chevalier (Prestige Class).

Champion of the Faith (Warpriest archetype).

Hellknight (Prestige Class).

Just to name three.
{. . .}

And, of course, Antipaladin, which now comes in flavors from Chaotic Evil to Lawful Evil. Between Paladin and Antipaladin archetypes, the alignments lacking a full BAB smite-capable class are Chaotic Good (yes I know about Chevalier, but that's really Paizo D&D 3.5, not Pathfinder), Neutral, and Chaotic Neutral. If you exclude the terrible archetypes, add Lawful Neutral (for base classes -- once you include prestige classes, Hellknight is not bad) and Neutral Good, and semi-add Neutral Evil (for Lawful Evil, Tyrant Antipaladin is buggy but looks very easy to fix with minor house-ruling to address a few Chaotic-to-Lawful conversion oversights, so I'm counting that as decent).

Incidentally, Antipaladin has a good Will Save on a full BAB chassis as well.

Come to think of it, I'd like to see an Anarchist Antipaladin archetype that can be Chaotic Neutral as well as Chaotic Evil.

Of course, what I'd REALLY like to see is all Paladin/Antipaladin archetypes converted into prestige classes along the lines of Hellknight and the Kirthfinder/D&D 3.5 Unearthed Arcana Prestige Paladin, but now we're getting into Pathfinder 2.0 (or at least 1.5) territory.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

UnArcaneElection wrote:

^What did you do to keep from failing critical Will Saves?

Iron Will, and one other player was a cleric who would keep handy counters to common effects. Carrion Crown in general doesn't have a lot of nasty domination effects, actually, and things like hold person can be endured.

The PC did die, once, to a nat 1 on a Fort save against a SoD effect. Not much that you can do there, build wise.


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As for the Blind Swordsman, the blinded blade style chain covers that. Can be picked up by level 4 at minimum that I can find. With several traits that grant proficiency in melee weapons it can be done easy.


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Here's one for me. Swashbucklers. Oh I get there's a class for that, but them and all their archtypes are absolute garbage at hopping around the battlefield, swinging from chandeliers, similar things that are baked into the flavor.

Yeah, I could take spring attack, but lets be real, that the feat is basically a joke in both the level of prereqs and the garbage levels of damage it forces you to have.


Tarik Blackhands wrote:

Here's one for me. Swashbucklers. Oh I get there's a class for that, but them and all their archtypes are absolute garbage at hopping around the battlefield, swinging from chandeliers, similar things that are baked into the flavor.

Yeah, I could take spring attack, but lets be real, that the feat is basically a joke in both the level of prereqs and the garbage levels of damage it forces you to have.

Blood of beasts has a tengu swashbuckler archtype you might want to look at: i think its pretty obvated once everyone is flying all daybut the wall running looks fun.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Tarik Blackhands wrote:

Here's one for me. Swashbucklers. Oh I get there's a class for that, but them and all their archtypes are absolute garbage at hopping around the battlefield, swinging from chandeliers, similar things that are baked into the flavor.

Yeah, I could take spring attack, but lets be real, that the feat is basically a joke in both the level of prereqs and the garbage levels of damage it forces you to have.

Blood of beasts has a tengu swashbuckler archtype you might want to look at: i think its pretty obvated once everyone is flying all daybut the wall running looks fun.

If you mean coursers (Looking at d20pfsrd, I don't have Blood of Beasts), I noticed them and wasn't too wowed. Yeah the mobility deeds are closer to what I like, but the big issue is the full attack paradigm that's baked into PF. Sure I can run across the wall to fight the evil duke in his skybox...but them I'm back to turret stabbing him which is anathema to swashbuckler flavor to me.


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swoosh wrote:
Speaking of sexist monstrosities. Anyone else find it odd that male characters that run around with next to no equipment are badasses who don't need armor, but female characters in the same circumstances are just victims of oversexualization and marketing? Hooray for gender roles.

As King of Aquilonia, Conan wore not only chainmail, but a curiass as well. The Tarzan lookalike is another creation of Tarzan.

But I'll address your point. Again take a look at the classic Conan pozes from Marvel Comics. Both he and the women in those poses show a lot of skin. But Conan is shown as a dominant sex figure exhibiting his classic manhood.

Sonja on the other hand, like the classic Amazons only retains her power, by denying her sex, the things that make her a woman. Her situation is far from equivalent to Conan's. If she submits to being a woman once, she becomes like all other females in Conan's world... helpless chattel to be used by men.

My point stands.


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Two I'm thinking of. One, the dual wielder with a one handed weapon and a one handed ranged weapon in the off hand. Such as a longsword and a crossbow combination. This style would be pretty fun but you'd have to invest into so many feats to keep up at all damage wise with other martial styles. I suppose one way you can do it is get slashing grace, then focus exclusively on ranged feats like rapid shot and stuff.

Another style is the character who uses many different kinds of weapons. I suppose this is the same thing as the one above. I suppose what I'm trying to say is I'm not a huge fan that Pathfinder really pushes you to specialize in one weapon for martials. I've always thought it was fun in movies when the hero fell back on using alternative weapons than his go to weapon in an action scene depending on the situation. Like Arnold in Commando when he hides in the tool house and takes out dudes with an axe and buzz saws as opposed to his guns he was using for most of the fight. If this was the Pathfinder system that change in tactics probably wouldn't work well for him.


Tarik Blackhands wrote:

Here's one for me. Swashbucklers. Oh I get there's a class for that, but them and all their archtypes are absolute garbage at hopping around the battlefield, swinging from chandeliers, similar things that are baked into the flavor.

Yeah, I could take spring attack, but lets be real, that the feat is basically a joke in both the level of prereqs and the garbage levels of damage it forces you to have.

Even if flying is not uncommon, this is ruletset that is very much locked into the flat plane battlefield format.

Complex 3D combat is never going to work in it.


I don't know if it's been said yet, but poison builds are pretty hamstrung by the cost of poisons. GM's tend to not drop them as loot since they are so valuable per dose, any reasonable amount of doses would offest the party's wealth by a significant amount if they were to sell them instead of use them. Which means most poisoners are going to have to craft their own or eat the GP cost, either of which can be a major inhibitor to a successful build.

IMO poisoners should be the martial/mundane equivalent to debuff casters (not battlefield control, which is well covered by combat maneuvers), but the role is often left un-played due to the prohibitive feat/gp costs of poison builds.

Scarab Sages

My Self wrote:

Rogues.

dual hand crossbow Rogues

They don't allow that because having two crossbows would be impossible, they don't even have an archetype for dual wielding pistols effectively, let alone crossbows which you couldn't even accomplish outside of diablo

Scarab Sages

Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
swoosh wrote:
Speaking of sexist monstrosities. Anyone else find it odd that male characters that run around with next to no equipment are badasses who don't need armor, but female characters in the same circumstances are just victims of oversexualization and marketing? Hooray for gender roles.

As King of Aquilonia, Conan wore not only chainmail, but a curiass as well. The Tarzan lookalike is another creation of Tarzan.

But I'll address your point. Again take a look at the classic Conan pozes from Marvel Comics. Both he and the women in those poses show a lot of skin. But Conan is shown as a dominant sex figure exhibiting his classic manhood.

Sonja on the other hand, like the classic Amazons only retains her power, by denying her sex, the things that make her a woman. Her situation is far from equivalent to Conan's. If she submits to being a woman once, she becomes like all other females in Conan's world... helpless chattel to be used by men.

My point stands.

Yes i admit that red sonja as she is presented originally is laughable at how bad it is especially considering how she only gets her powers from a god and the terrible trope of having rape as a backstory, but her more recent portrayals are a lot better taking away most of her previous glaring flaws outside of the infamous chainmail bikini.


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As far as I know there is no really effective way to build a "marksman" style character that makes powerful well-aimed shots (let alone actually using the Sniping applications of the Stealth skill). It will always be behind the spammy archers / gunners even before you take into account Deflect Arrows and Cut From The Air.


Air Kineticist can make a strong Sniper. When you're 400ft away the chance of being spotted is pretty low. There's even a talent for seeing that far away or, even better, sending your blast forward to explore and possibly attack through all kinds of twists and turns.


Azten wrote:
Air Kineticist can make a strong Sniper. When you're 400ft away the chance of being spotted is pretty low. There's even a talent for seeing that far away or, even better, sending your blast forward to explore and possibly attack through all kinds of twists and turns.

Bah! 400? No self respecting air kineticist fights anything that is under 900' away. Air's reach, yo.

They are perfectly suited for taking a shot, and then running away at 100 mph using ride the blast. An air kineticist is a terror of the battlefield. Second only to earth users (who have a shorter range, but also have an excellent defense that makes it impossible for the common man to even scratch him).


I didn't have my book or think to look up the full distance. Nice range, though it's too bad Greater Windshight at 480ft.


Athaleon wrote:
As far as I know there is no really effective way to build a "marksman" style character that makes powerful well-aimed shots (let alone actually using the Sniping applications of the Stealth skill). It will always be behind the spammy archers / gunners even before you take into account Deflect Arrows and Cut From The Air.

Bolt ace has dead shot at level 7. With gravity bow and a large heavy X-bow you have a 3d8 19-20 X3 crit weapon, if all 3 shots hit thats 9d8+dex/mods, potentially vs touch ac. Seems legit.


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If you are a large character, or became large and then picked up the heavy crossbow.


^Come to think of it, it would be nice to have a spell and/or a Weapon Enhancement for ranged (including thrown) weapons/ammunition that makes them retain their enlarged size after they leave you when you use them while enlarged. For balance purposes, this should be a fairly expensive enhancement and/or moderately high-level spell, but still, it would be nice to have.

Envall wrote:

Even if flying is not uncommon, this is ruletset that is very much locked into the flat plane battlefield format.

Complex 3D combat is never going to work in it.

Keep an eye out for the underwater combat that comes out with the Ruins of Azlant AP (can't remember if it is supposed to be in the AP or in a Player Companion that comes out at the same time). I wonder how easily this will be adaptable to other 3D combat environments.

Liberty's Edge

Feral wrote:
*Unarmored/naked barbarian - There's an archetype for this trope but it's awful.

Yep, this one is pretty much worthless. Would it be so terrible for them to get Wis to AC? And retain an ability that's basically their signature?


You just need to use bracers of armor instead, and find sources of natural armor that stack with the amulet.


Or alternately you could pick a less crappy archetype and wear armor. It does next to nothing to fulfill the concept.

Liberty's Edge

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Azten wrote:
You just need to use bracers of armor instead, and find sources of natural armor that stack with the amulet.

Running an NPC with that archetype, I can assure you it's not that simple. It's the same issue monks have: not being able to afford s**$ when they're thematically supposed to be ascetic. You might be able to afford good enough bracers and amulets to be on the same level as another barbarian with a breastplate, but you sacrifice too much in other areas - an 8th level savage barbarian with +3 bracers of armor, +1 dodge and natural armor from the class, +2 amulet of natural armor, and +2 ring of deflection has 8000 gp to spare for attacks and saves and so forth. A vanilla barbarian in that situation, with let's say a +2 chain shirt, a +2 amulet, and a +1 ring, would have about 19000 gp to spare. And the savage barbarian can't afford to sacrifice more AC because by taking the archetype they lost damage reduction.

This does bring up another important lack, though: Ascetics that aren't monks. AFAIK you can't play a warpriest who donates all their earnings to the church, or a Robin Hood-style rogue, without okaying something like the ABP rules with your GM. Or just accepting the nerf.


Ryan Freire wrote:
Athaleon wrote:
As far as I know there is no really effective way to build a "marksman" style character that makes powerful well-aimed shots (let alone actually using the Sniping applications of the Stealth skill). It will always be behind the spammy archers / gunners even before you take into account Deflect Arrows and Cut From The Air.
Bolt ace has dead shot at level 7. With gravity bow and a large heavy X-bow you have a 3d8 19-20 X3 crit weapon, if all 3 shots hit thats 9d8+dex/mods, potentially vs touch ac. Seems legit.

And with a regular full attack, if all 3 shots hit that's 9d8+3*(dex+mods). Assuming a +7 static damage bonus on both (reasonable to expect +5 Dex and +2 Enhancement at level that's 47.5 average damage on the Dead Shot versus 61.5 with the full attack. Even a medium heavy crossbow with Gravity Bow ties the average damage at 48 but doesn't take the penalty for using a wrong-sized weapon. The gap widens as levels increase, and damage bonuses and number of attacks climb higher.

Some other considerations:

- Dead Shot costs Grit, unless you use Signature Deed on it at level 11. Admittedly there are few good candidates for that feat anymore.
- Dead Shot, as a single attack, only gets DR deducted once (though you can get the same effect with the Clustered Shots feat).
- Single-shot characters are shut down by Deflect Arrows (unless the Large Heavy Crossbow counts as a Ballista Bolt), and Cut/Smash From The Air (though the latter can be difficult or impossible to overwhelm even with a full attack ).
- Dead Shot has an odd system for confirming crits, and I am too bushed to do the math on that right now to figure out if it's better or not.

Liberty's Edge

Frogsplosion wrote:


The Sniper is probably one of the best examples of something the rules constantly get in the way of, you need to jump through a lot of hoops just to be competent at it because of how stealth works. Stealth in general honestly is really hard to do if you plan to drop any bodies because the system really doesn't want you to one shot things out of stealth, single attack damage generally doesn't keep up with HP very well, so being a Corvo style character is pretty hard.

True but if you take the scout archetype with the sniper archetype at lvl 8 you can move 10 feet and shoot a sneak attack. Really cool concept. And legal by RAW.

Liberty's Edge

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Gark the Goblin wrote:
Feral wrote:
*Unarmored/naked barbarian - There's an archetype for this trope but it's awful.
Yep, this one is pretty much worthless. Would it be so terrible for them to get Wis to AC? And retain an ability that's basically their signature?

Yup I had posted a question about this archetype that never for answered, I think it was the savage barbarian. Really underpowered and doesn't scale, concept is cool but just falls flat in practicality.

Feral Gnasher is also a barbarian archetype that seems to need more redefining as how it works for the rules. They want you to take beast totem for more natural claw attacks that you can use while grappling but the rules specifically say you get a huge penalty if for not using hands to grapple. Luckily some other player found another cool way to play the feral gnasher.

There is quite a few other archetypes that make you wonder who proof read those concepts!


Azten wrote:
If you are a large character, or became large and then picked up the heavy crossbow.

you can 1 hand heavy xbows just needs 2 to reload


Athaleon wrote:
Ryan Freire wrote:
Athaleon wrote:
As far as I know there is no really effective way to build a "marksman" style character that makes powerful well-aimed shots (let alone actually using the Sniping applications of the Stealth skill). It will always be behind the spammy archers / gunners even before you take into account Deflect Arrows and Cut From The Air.
Bolt ace has dead shot at level 7. With gravity bow and a large heavy X-bow you have a 3d8 19-20 X3 crit weapon, if all 3 shots hit thats 9d8+dex/mods, potentially vs touch ac. Seems legit.

And with a regular full attack, if all 3 shots hit that's 9d8+3*(dex+mods). Assuming a +7 static damage bonus on both (reasonable to expect +5 Dex and +2 Enhancement at level that's 47.5 average damage on the Dead Shot versus 61.5 with the full attack. Even a medium heavy crossbow with Gravity Bow ties the average damage at 48 but doesn't take the penalty for using a wrong-sized weapon. The gap widens as levels increase, and damage bonuses and number of attacks climb higher.

Some other considerations:

- Dead Shot costs Grit, unless you use Signature Deed on it at level 11. Admittedly there are few good candidates for that feat anymore.
- Dead Shot, as a single attack, only gets DR deducted once (though you can get the same effect with the Clustered Shots feat).
- Single-shot characters are shut down by Deflect Arrows (unless the Large Heavy Crossbow counts as a Ballista Bolt), and Cut/Smash From The Air (though the latter can be difficult or impossible to overwhelm even with a full attack ).
- Dead Shot has an odd system for confirming crits, and I am too bushed to do the math on that right now to figure out if it's better or not.

deflect arrows is generally pretty rare, in npc's/monsters cut/smash rarer. Dead shot requires 1 grit to target touch ac, a normal full attack requires 3.


Alright, it's time for the Roscman to make your dreams come true.
Holy butts there are a lot of these. I'll start with most of the first page's requests. If you guys wanna see more, let me know!

Frogsplosion wrote:
The Sniper is probably one of the best examples of something the rules constantly get in the way of, you need to jump through a lot of hoops just to be competent at it because of how stealth works.

While you're not wrong, the Vigilante offers some interesting options. Check out a thing I made. Fairly dependent on the environment, but with a bird's eye view you can sew a lot of chaos.

Frogsplosion wrote:
And of course, there's the Pure shapeshifter, The copycat, the mimic, the guy whose only skills are your skills.

A Kitsune Brawler with Realistic Likeness and Swift Kitsune Shapechanger can pull off that shtick of a fighting game character who copies other people's styles. Metamorph Alchemists can shift into a wider variety of things, while Phantom Thief rogues are so good at skills you'd THINK they stole yours.

Krell44 wrote:
Throwers.

The Ricochet Shot feat solves the issues of enchanting multiple weapons as well as saving on that bothersome Returning ability. The rest is your usual ranged feat taxes. Fighter works best due to feat taxes as well as raw number boosts to make up for damage, but I'm sure others can pull it off.

Jiggy wrote:
You know how in adventure movies, you've usually got a party of greenhorns and then that one seasoned adventurer who's already been around the block and isn't surprised by anything and is properly prepared for all the weird crap they run into (and provides helpful exposition on each such encounter by explaining it to the others)?

That sounds pretty Bard to me. A Bard with Breadth of Experience seems to fit it even better. Honestly, Pathfinder is a very magical game, so being prepared for multiple situations will often involve having some form of magic.

tonyz wrote:
Shapeshifters. Nor wild shapers, shapeshifters.

See above for Kitsune related examples.

Azten wrote:
Characters that hurt themselves when using magic. Actually hurt themselves, like wounds open up or burns form. Kineticist is close, but that's light bruising at best.

While I feel like the Kineticist is the best compromise to achieve this kind of flavor, I can say that a build centered entirely around the Detonate spell would be really amusing.

magispitt wrote:
A decent Harsk

Readjust stats to have decent strength, take Power Attack and Quickdraw as your first feats. Either play him in Giantslayer or change your Favored Enemy. Crossbow style is a thing, so take that. At the end of the day, you'll be copying the age old tactic of the switch hitter: Use a pre-loaded crossbow as a backup ranged or opener before you quickdraw and charge into melee. His art suggests that's how he'd actually fight anyways.

Arbane the Terrible wrote:

Off the top of my head:

The World's Luckiest Man
Any of the characters from RWBY, below level 10. (They're STUDENTS)
Beast Boy, from DC Comics.
Viewtiful Joe
A psychic houseplant
Shiro, from Fate/Stay Night.
A Solar Exalted.
An Architecturgist - amazing magic for creating and affecting buildings, and nothing else.
A Dipsomancer from Unknown Armies.
Flowey the Flower
A Final Fantasy Blue Mage
Cu Chulainn
A Fighter who's actually relevant when the spellcasters are tossing 9th-level spells. :-P

Oi, you're makin' me work for these.

Luckiest Man Alive: Be born lucky, be an Adaptable Luck Halfling, dabble in Archeology, buy a good luck charm, become even luckier, and when in doubt, get thicker skin.
Ruby (RWBY): Gunslinger with an Axe Musket with a bit of Horizon Walker for Dimension Door. Axe Musket that reflavors "Axe" into "scythe."
Weiss (RWBY): Simple. Kensai Magus. Possible Summoner gestalt/VMC?
Blake (RWBY): This one is fun. One level Gunslinger dip, a dash of Fighter for feats, and then Ninja. A Dagger Pistol with Throwing on the dagger half and Ricochet Shot simulates the string that pulls it back.
Yang (RWBY): Brawler as a baseline. Fire Kineticist for the Kinetic Fist infusion and a backup ranged attack, as well as a Falming/Flaming Burst amulet. Top it off with Unchained Barbarian for rage that works well with Brawler's Flurry.
Viewtiful Joe: Brawler with a Magical Child Viigilante dip.
Psychic Houseplant: High level druid with a Psychic dip?
Shirou from Fate Stay Night: I haven't seen the anime (I really should) but from watching a couple of fight clips, I'm assuming some kind of Summoner gestalt?
Solar Exalted: Triple gestalt, high tier mythic, and a very lighthearted group?
Architecturgist: A Sorcerer with incredibly specific spell selections.
Dispomancer: Psychic with the Psychedelia discipline can kind of simulate this vibe. You can't cast while feared, but it says nothing about intoxication.
Flowey the Flower: Summoner, again. Div Eidolon fits the character pretty well, but you could also run it as a Synthesist Summoner where the actual Summoner is an unwilling participant. After all, you gotta get that soul power SOMEWHERE, right?
Blue Mage: Favorite class. I've struggled with this one before. Arcanist that only learns defensive spells naturally, and scribes new spells into their book (themed as a monster codex in the making?) that are roughly based on monster abilities that they've been subject to. Not advised for PFS.
Cu Chulainn: I got no ranks in the knowledge skills for this one, but a half-assed skim of the wiki tells me some flavor of Barbarian.
A Fighter who's actually relevant when the spellcasters are tossing 9th-level spells: Have the DM throw traditional "monster appears, roll initiative" fights at the party. Any Fighter worth their broadsword has some method of flight by now, and the various handbooks make them better in a fight. Have your casters play for the sake of each players' fun and not just end/prevent traditional encounters from the safety of their pocket dimension pleasure palaces or whatever. Martials make fantastic buff sponges.


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^I think you missed the mark on pretty much everything... you have close approximations on some of them, but others I don't think you understood the exact flavors the person was looking for...


Ryan Freire wrote:
Azten wrote:
If you are a large character, or became large and then picked up the heavy crossbow.
you can 1 hand heavy xbows just needs 2 to reload

But not large heavy crossbows because your are not large.


Ryan Freire wrote:
Kobold Cleaver wrote:
I think there's an important line to draw there. Does it truly make the concept unplayable just because it has a major weakness—especially if the weakness doesn't contradict the concept? For instance, Raistlin isn't an unplayable concept, even if his 7 Con is a major weakness.
I don't think so, but i DO think that needing a 15 dex to build a character that uses a dex max + 1 suit of armor counts a fair bit toward calling the concept hamstrung.

Only if said armored sword and shield fighter isn't a fighter. Fighters get Armor Training, so even in a full plate, they use the DEX.

A Sword and Shield Paladin, however, is pretty well hammered by the rules. Not only they are MAD as hell, but they lack the feats (or class abilities) to support this combat style, and in fact, the shield hampers them A LOT, because a (heavy) shield interrupts their ability to use lay on hands and spells. I know, they can use a light shield. And I'm perfectly OK with that limitation to bards or clerics. But, you know, the paladin in heavy armor with a crusader's heraldic or kite shield is pretty thematic. And not supported at all by the class.

A simple class ability at lvl 4 that says "Paladins can use somatic components and lay on hands when holding a heavy shield" would work well enough.


Azten wrote:
Ryan Freire wrote:
Azten wrote:
If you are a large character, or became large and then picked up the heavy crossbow.
you can 1 hand heavy xbows just needs 2 to reload
But not large heavy crossbows because your are not large.

Sure you do, at -2 for being an inappropriately sized weapon but you're using it vs touch ac when it counts so NBD.

There are no handedness' listed for ranged weapons, bows have specific text requiring 2 hands to use.


If there is no handedness, why do you take extra penalties from two-weapon fighting?


Full BaB Necromancer


Azten wrote:
If there is no handedness, why do you take extra penalties from two-weapon fighting?

By handedness i mean light/1h/2h.

You take extra penalties because of a special rule under the weapon, not because they're separated by the same organization as melee.


Doomed Hero wrote:
Full BaB Necromancer

Knight of the Sepulcher


Athaleon wrote:
As far as I know there is no really effective way to build a "marksman" style character that makes powerful well-aimed shots (let alone actually using the Sniping applications of the Stealth skill). It will always be behind the spammy archers / gunners even before you take into account Deflect Arrows and Cut From The Air.

It's called having the Deadly Aim feat, along with enough BAB and bonuses to more than work out the to hit penalty.


Ryan Freire wrote:
Doomed Hero wrote:
Full BaB Necromancer
Knight of the Sepulcher

Doesn't get Animate Dead until 10th level. That is unacceptable.


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So, what you actually find hamstrung by the rules is a character with full base attack bonus and the necromantic prowess of a wizard or cleric.


Doomed Hero wrote:
Ryan Freire wrote:
Doomed Hero wrote:
Full BaB Necromancer
Knight of the Sepulcher
Doesn't get Animate Dead until 10th level. That is unacceptable.

Scroll that s#&~


Ryan Freire wrote:
Azten wrote:
If there is no handedness, why do you take extra penalties from two-weapon fighting?

By handedness i mean light/1h/2h.

You take extra penalties because of a special rule under the weapon, not because they're separated by the same organization as melee.

You realize if you are correct a pixie can wield a colossal heavy crossbow in one hand with no issue other than weight?


Azten wrote:
Ryan Freire wrote:
Azten wrote:
If there is no handedness, why do you take extra penalties from two-weapon fighting?

By handedness i mean light/1h/2h.

You take extra penalties because of a special rule under the weapon, not because they're separated by the same organization as melee.

You realize if you are correct a pixie can wield a colossal heavy crossbow in one hand with no issue other than weight?

At -16 to hit.

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