I believe that what's being referenced is the Atonement rules. "If the atoning creature committed the evil act unwittingly or under some form of compulsion, atonement operates normally at no cost to you." <As such, performing the act while misguided/under a compulsion is not enough to avoid all penalties, though it's forgiven far more readily.
That's an inference, though. It isn't as explicit as "it's up to the DM" (which is repeated all over the place).
If the DM doesn't view forced evil acts as being enough to cause someone to "fall" that clause of the atonement spell never operates, but nothing breaks. In contrast, if that is taken to be an explicit statement of "being forced to do evil makes you fall" then the rules contradict themselves.
Surely we should prefer the interpretation without contradiction?
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This is also a rule:
"In the end, the Game Master is the one who gets to decide if something's in accordance with its indicated alignment, based on the descriptions given previously and his own opinion and interpretation"
which means if the DM decides that forced evil action doesn't make a paladin fall, that's RAW.
Nothing is as explicit as that. Nothing declares "that bit in the alignment section about DM judgement is superceded here".
Nothing ever takes the ultimate power from a GM. Other than players leaving the table. So what? Choosing to ignore the spirit of the alignment rules in favor of saying the GM is never wrong does no favors to the alignment rules. The GM does not need the help.
I am expressing the need to understand the point of the alignment rules. That some things are declared an aligned action. That many many paragraphs are written on the subject in the books. That they should not be ignored.
Your answer? "The GM can do what he wants cuz he's the GM."
Of course he can. He can ignore every line of text that exists. Yay for GMs.
I'll be over here in my corner attempting to understand the rules instead of trying to make them pointless.
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Except that's the problem with using the term "dose".
Outside of using this spell, a "dose" of Unholy Water when you use it for anything is the whole flask. So when this spell says "dose" without naming the dosage we can only refer to other doses, which in other cases is the whole flask.
There's no cost attached to the "dose" of Unholy Water in this spell, just like there's no cost attached to the potion of bull's strength needed for the transformation spell. We all know that potions are not included in spell component pouches, and so that is my problem when they use the term "dose" instead of an actual measurement.
If they had used drop of Unholy water this debate wouldn't even exist. But they used "dose" What is the dose? Is it negligible? It may, it may not be.
A dose is not a measured quantity anywhere else. You say elsewhere a dose is a whole flask. Can you show me this text? I have never see this to be true. I have only seen where you can use a flask. Of course, you can portion it down if you use a battle aspergillum. But that doesn't use the verbiage dose either. It is an unknown quantity with no given cost.
Please also note that the spell has one negligible cost component. I would bet you many many monopoly monies that the other possible component is supposed to be the same.
Yes, yes, it would have been great if they used the word drop. Or some other way to get an exact amount. Since then we would know how much of the component a flask of unholy water gives. But, they didn't. They just gave us a unique item and then gave no price. Same as bat guano, dragon scales or pieces of humanoids(for alter self).
I know the cost of a living humanoid. There is text for this. Should I then use that as a basis for how much alter self costs? It says piece but not how large a piece. Maybe it's a whole one or really, two humanoids.
(Now I can't help myself... "Hey, Glorph, buddy, um, I need to turn into a half-orc for a bit... hold still", John the now evil wizard...
To use a flask of Un/Holy Water as an attack you have to use the whole flask, ergo the the dosage for that is 1 flask.
"It is an unknown quantity with no given cost."
^THIS. This is what frustrates me so, it's not listed as a negligible quantity, such as a drop, it's an unknown quantity.
They've basically said "1 drop of Devil's blood or an amount of Unholy Water".
"Please also note that the spell has one negligible cost component. I would bet you many many monopoly monies that the other possible component is supposed to be the same."
It has two components, and they either cost the same (either negligible or a certain amount) or they cost different... which would be really f+*&ing weird.
And for your amusing anecdote, drop/piece are still more accurate quantifiers than a dose with no dosage listed.
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So, only a single act of torture can make you go from Good to Neutral and Neutral to Evil, while it takes two [evil] spells to go from Good to Neutral and three [evil] spells to go from Neutral to Evil...unless you're sacrificing a sentient creature, of course. Amusingly, the sidebar on evil spells says things like 'typically' and 'almost always', while also clarifying it's advice, while the torture section has no such clarifications.
True, I should have used a lesser evil as my example. The point still stands though.
This is also a rule:
"In the end, the Game Master is the one who gets to decide if something's in accordance with its indicated alignment, based on the descriptions given previously and his own opinion and interpretation"
which means if the DM decides that forced evil action doesn't make a paladin fall, that's RAW.
Nothing is as explicit as that. Nothing declares "that bit in the alignment section about DM judgement is superceded here".
Nothing ever takes the ultimate power from a GM. Other than players leaving the table. So what? Choosing to ignore the spirit of the alignment rules in favor of saying the GM is never wrong does no favors to the alignment rules. The GM does not need the help.
I am expressing the need to understand the point of the alignment rules. That some things are declared an aligned action. That many many paragraphs are written on the subject in the books. That they should not be ignored.
Your answer? "The GM can do what he wants cuz he's the GM."
Of course he can. He can ignore every line of text that exists. Yay for GMs.I'll be over here in my corner attempting to understand the rules instead of trying to make them pointless.
Okay, thanks.
Just to repeat though, the bolded is definitely not my answer. It's almost the opposite of my answer. I am explicitly rejecting the "rule zero means anything goes" argument and trying to understand what RAW is when it comes to alignment. (Hence my quoting the rules from the alignment section).
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...Except that's the problem with using the term "dose".
Outside of using this spell, a "dose" of Unholy Water when you use it for anything is the whole flask. So when this spell says "dose" without naming the dosage we can only refer to other doses, which in other cases is the whole flask.
There's no cost attached to the "dose" of Unholy Water in this spell, just like there's no cost attached to the potion of bull's strength needed for the transformation spell. We all know that potions are not included in spell component pouches, and so that is my problem when they use the term "dose" instead of an actual measurement.
If they had used drop of Unholy water this debate wouldn't even exist. But they used "dose" What is the dose? Is it negligible? It may, it may not be.
A dose is not a measured quantity anywhere else. You say elsewhere a dose is a whole flask. Can you show me this text? I have never see this to be true. I have only seen where you can use a flask. Of course, you can portion it down if you use a battle aspergillum. But that doesn't use the verbiage dose either. It is an unknown quantity with no given cost.
Please also note that the spell has one negligible cost component. I would bet you many many monopoly monies that the other possible component is supposed to be the same.
Yes, yes, it would have been great if they used the word drop. Or some other way to get an exact amount. Since then we would know how much of the component a flask of unholy water gives. But, they didn't. They just gave us a unique item and then gave no price. Same as bat guano, dragon scales or pieces of humanoids(for alter self).
I know the cost of a living humanoid. There is text for this. Should I then use that as a basis for how much alter self costs? It says piece but not how large a piece. Maybe it's a whole one or really, two humanoids.
(Now I can't help myself... "Hey, Glorph, buddy, um, I need to turn into a half-orc for a bit... hold
The recommended amount of unholy water to use as a splash weapon is 'flask'. The recommended amount of unholy water to use as a material component for this spell is 'dose'. The two are not linked in the slightest by amounts. As there is no text one way or the other... other than the fact that no price is given and there is no given price elsewhere for a 'dose of unholy water'. Specifics usually matter in these cases.
I would agree with you wholeheartedly if it said flask of unholy water. But, as you noted, it is really really weird to have a spell with multiple possible components and the prices be different. In fact, I believe that case is so far unprecedented.
At the end of the day though... it really doesn't matter. Since a drop of devil blood is negligible in price. Making casting the spell negligible in price. I'd just like to know how many drops it takes to get to the center of an unholy flask. I mean, a flask normally is 1 pint of fluid. If a dose is the same amount of unholy water as blood used... then a pint holds about 9,463 drops of unholy water. That would certainly make it negligible.
But if it is a whole flask, each flask is 1 lbs.
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The recommended amount aka the dose to use as a weapon is 1 flask.
The recommended amount aka the dose to use as a spell component is 1 dose.
????
Yeah, I just really want to get the dose thing clarified, preferably before they use it in another spell as well >_<
You are being non-specific with the word dose. Dose has a certain amount. Just as flask has a certain amount. We don't know what that is, of course. But it is certain to someone.
I fear it was written by someone who did not examine what the word dose means. But it is being used as a quantity and not as a placeholder for 'recommended quantity.'
Weird, yes, I agree that it is bad writing. I want it to be different too. Maybe if the spell makes it into a book that isn't a splat it will change. But I'm sure we both know the words as written will not change unless that happens. We are forced to come to some decision about what the most likely amount is.
I will say it again, I firmly do not believe that it is meant to be a flask of fluid. For the reasons I have noted in this thread.
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Dose by itself is not a certain amount, just like the word "amount" is not a certain amount by itself. Whereas a flask has a certain amount in Pathfinder (1 pint).
Sorry, I just can't let that go, it eats at me too much.
I think that I have to agree with Rysky on this.
Basically, there has to be a close proximity in value to the two components of the spell otherwise this throws the game economy out the window, (IMHO) and I'm not talking about the economics here in the rest of the imaginary world, just game economics.
Logically the two items must be closely related in value so they can be substituted, or at the very least it is certainly implied.
Secondly, as explained by Rysky by using the words "dose" it proscribes using a measured amount. A flask is a measure of an amount of water. It is defined and stated and by that standard can be described as a dose.
But you bring up a point, and Lorewalker I can totally see your point of view. I disagree with it, but I get it and respect it.
On the other hand by virtue of this discussion I now have a totally new image of how this spell is cast. It certainly implies to me (YMMV) that the recipient of the spell must ingest, or at the very least have the contents of the outsiders blood/unholy water placed on the wound of the injured. (gah) The things that desecrate water in my body is the image of nightmare fuel.
Based on so many traditions of having something unpure absorbed into your person for what ever reason is nasty stuff. I don't need rules for that, its unsettling.
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you choose to read dose of unholy water as something less than a flask of unholy water; that's being myopic on purpose and frankly players bringing this kind of argument to a game table is what slows the game down and bores everyone to death...Components V, S, M (1 of devil blood or 1 dose of unholy water)
as a listed material component with no price, or a price less than 1 gp if you figure out the math of how many drops in a flask, its free in a spell component pouch. Its not us that are choosing to read things into the text.
Incorrect. A drop of cow saliva or a drop of bat guano or bat urine is one thing (sure, it sucks to collect it, and the argument that it's free is because it's generally inexpensive i.e. you can set a peasant to task to go fetch it).
HOWEVER, I think you'll run out of peasants real fast if you task them to recover 1 of devil blood.
Unavailable to public = expensive.
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Dose by itself is not a certain amount, just like the word "amount" is not a certain amount by itself. Whereas a flask has a certain amount in Pathfinder (1 pint).
Sorry, I just can't let that go, it eats at me too much.
Wiki says:
"Anointing is the ritual act of pouring aromatic oil over a person's head or entire body.[1] By extension, the term is also applied to related acts of sprinkling, dousing, or smearing a person or object with any perfumed oil, milk, butter, or other fat.[2]"
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...let's add "ignored by most good adventurers because it's called infernal healing."
And frankly at 25gp per shot, it goes from "annoying because of alignment rules weirdness" to "Ignored because it's too expensive to use".That falls under "annoying because of alignment rules".
At 25gp per shot it would be "ignored by most good adventurers because it's too expensive to use" even if it was called "healing by celestial ponies and rainbows".
I don't find the alignment rules annoying in the slightest.
And fast healing is superior to standard cure spells in many ways, including but not limited to granting you auto stabilization upon reaching negative hit points.
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The Devil Blood is a "drop", but the Unholy Water requires a "dose." How much is a dose?
Holy/Unholy Water (1 flask) 25 gp 1 lb. PRG:CRB
Now either There is some amount of holy water that costs 25gp that isn't a flask, OR more likely a dose= a flask.
I could have sworn that one of the sources for this specified a 25gp price for the unholy water.
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The Devil Blood is a "drop", but the Unholy Water requires a "dose." How much is a dose?Holy/Unholy Water (1 flask) 25 gp 1 lb. PRG:CRB
Now either There is some amount of holy water that costs 25gp that isn't a flask, OR more likely a dose= a flask.
I could have sworn that one of the sources for this specified a 25gp price for the unholy water.
*nods*
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Incorrect. A drop of cow saliva or a drop of bat guano or bat urine is one thing (sure, it sucks to collect it, and the argument that it's free is because it's generally inexpensive i.e. you can set a peasant to task to go fetch it).
HOWEVER, I think you'll run out of peasants real fast if you task them to recover 1 of devil blood.
Unavailable to public = expensive.
No. An expensive listed material component is expensive. Anything else is free in a component pouch.
Spell Component Pouch
Price 5 gp; Weight 2 lbs.
A spellcaster with a spell component pouch is assumed to have all the material components and focuses needed for spellcasting, except for components that have a specific cost, divine focuses, and focuses that wouldn't fit in a pouch. Most spell component pouches are waterproof and can be strung onto a belt or bandolier.
No specified price? The component pouch has it. That's the rule. You want to house rule something else? Go ahead. You want to accuse other people of bending the rules because you don't like it when it's black and white clear as crystal in the text? Not cool dude.
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Incorrect. A drop of cow saliva or a drop of bat guano or bat urine is one thing (sure, it sucks to collect it, and the argument that it's free is because it's generally inexpensive i.e. you can set a peasant to task to go fetch it).
HOWEVER, I think you'll run out of peasants real fast if you task them to recover 1 of devil blood.
Unavailable to public = expensive.
No. An expensive listed material component is expensive. Anything else is free in a component pouch.
Spell Component Pouch
Price 5 gp; Weight 2 lbs.
A spellcaster with a spell component pouch is assumed to have all the material components and focuses needed for spellcasting, except for components that have a specific cost, divine focuses, and focuses that wouldn't fit in a pouch. Most spell component pouches are waterproof and can be strung onto a belt or bandolier.
No specified price? The component pouch has it. That's the rule. You want to house rule something else? Go ahead. You want to accuse other people of bending the rules because you don't like it when it's black and white clear as crystal in the text? Not cool dude.
This fall under the rules of innate value, otherwise we run into really stupid situations:
"Master, I was able to haggle the price down on those diamonds!"
"Excellent! Now go back and buy them at full price."
So in Cheliax and Korvosa? Cheap as f%~&.
Everywhere else? Expensive as f~~#, if not outright contraband (which means even MORE expensive as all f&$!)
We can only extrapolate as to the innate value of Devil's Blood.
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The Devil Blood is a "drop", but the Unholy Water requires a "dose." How much is a dose?Holy/Unholy Water (1 flask) 25 gp 1 lb. PRG:CRB
Now either There is some amount of holy water that costs 25gp that isn't a flask, OR more likely a dose= a flask.
I could have sworn that one of the sources for this specified a 25gp price for the unholy water.
A [u]dose[/u] of Cough syrup or other medicine is usually 1 Tablespoon.
There are 32 Tablespoons to a pint.
So if we equate 1 dose to equal 1 dose of medicine, the cost comes in at < 1Gp per dose.
Or if you want to use Holy Water to anoint the target, then all you have to do is dip your finger in the flask and get it wet enough to leave a wet symbol on the skin. Which is at best a 1/4 teaspoon.
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Are there any other spells that allow you to choose whether you want to use an expensive material component or one with no listed price?Which could be an argument for Devil's Blood being 25gp/drop.
Or for the "dose" of unholy water being so much less than a full flask that it's not worth counting.I'm not sure it's an argument for the spell being "Cheap as f&#~" in some places and "Expensive as f!$+ (or even MORE expensive as all f*&&)" elsewhere. Nothing in PF works like that.
Especially magic items.
It does when you haggle for diamonds, those things are f**~ing expensive.
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The system is more than its rules.Feel free to explain.
Replying little late.
Alignment is background. Sitting right next to eye color, height and weight. The only difference is that it is the background that was given more meaning than others.
The crossroads where fluff and crunch interwine and get tangled together. There is no MECHANICAL reason to oppose using PfE to stop mind control effects from evil beings. But selling the reason why this villain is using heavenly prayer is to me, nonsense. And that is only from the fluff side of things.
Alignment just means nothing from mechanical point of view. Take away the names and you just got a grid that has somekind of point system you skid along based on actions you take. But the original purpose, to give a fast and dirty analysis of what kind of a person the character is, and tie to the setting itself and its cosmic scale, you can only really play with that if you accept that people do not play the system. To me, archons having a stockpile of profane weapons that they just bust out when they need to kill some azatas feels wrong to me, even if it is sensible from mechanical point of view.
The poster boy that this thread carries in its title is perfect example here. Mechanically, it is just healing. Fluff-wise, it gives the impression that it is powerful spell evil people sell for either money or allegiance to wounded people, as part of the massive pyramid scheme the devils run. It is evil because to have learned it means you were part of a whole organization that makes use of it. This is how I read it in the context of the book it comes from.
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I feel like the reason "1 dose" in this case can be a very small amount is that the dosage doesn't vary with the size of the thing you're healing. The same "dose" of unholy water can heal a pixie or a giant, so it's not like you need to cover the target with it.
So I figure the correct dosage of unholy water for infernal healing is "whatever amount of unholy water contains as much 'evil energy' as one drop of devil blood." Now does anybody have a device to measure that?
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A [u]dose[/u] of Cough syrup or other medicine is usually 1 Tablespoon.
There are 32 Tablespoons to a pint.
So if we equate 1 dose to equal 1 dose of medicine, the cost comes in at < 1Gp per dose.
Or if you want to use Holy Water to anoint the target, then all you have to do is dip your finger in the flask and get it wet enough to leave a wet symbol on the skin. Which is at best a 1/4 teaspoon.
Incorrect. You can't anoint, in ancient terms, a being by the tablespoon. The spell says "You anoint a wounded creature with devil’s blood or unholy water" and anointing is the ritual act of pouring aromatic oil over a person's head or entire body (wiki ref.)
PS: note to self that it only works on wounded creatures, and NOT as a preventative measure... muhahahhah
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The poster boy that this thread carries in its title is perfect example here. Mechanically, it is just healing. Fluff-wise, it gives the impression that it is powerful spell evil people sell for either money or allegiance to wounded people, as part of the massive pyramid scheme the devils run. It is evil because to have learned it means you were part of a whole organization that makes use of it. This is how I read it in the context of the book it comes from.
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So if you wanted to use infernal healing on something that doesn't have a head, you're going to need to use a lot more blood/water?
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If you finish the sentence from your own source...
By extension, the term is also applied to related acts of sprinkling, dousing, or smearing a person or object with any perfumed oil, milk, butter, or other fat.
PS: note to self that it only works on wounded creatures, and NOT as a preventative measure... muhahahhah
If you're going to house rule the spell just house rule the spell already