Hey y'all!
I made a thread yesterday about soloing but I talked things over with my gm and I think he will let me build two characters. We are still going to do eithee rotrl or s&s. I am sorry if making too many threads is frowned upon here and if I am making to many threads :)
So back to the original topic, now that I can run two characters, how would a reach clerix and a divination wizard make for a two man party? I know they may have trouble early on, but they will be fully optimized and the cleric will be tanky. I think a cleric/wizard party would cover most basis, The cleric would act as a tank, a fighter/dps, a party face, a healer, a support and the wizard would cover utility, battlefield control, skills/knowledge, debuffing, and versatility.
If not a wizard/cleric group, what would you reccomend?
Again sorry if I am making too many threads.
Hmm, I'd say this is a fairly good two man team. It's hardly optimal of course, since the cleric won't be as good as a proper fighter no matter how you optimize him without compromising his healing abilities, but it's near impossible to create a perfect balance in a two person party anyways. One thing I could suggest is, instead of a wizard, trying to use a summoner. You'd lose some of your spellcasting abilities, but in exchange you'd gain a fairly powerful, long lasting minion that can help out a lot in either melee or any other role you select for it.
Wizard might do better focusing on Conjuration. Other schools of magic don't work too well if you run into something with spell immunity. Then again, maybe Divination will be needed to keep you alive the rest of the time.
Should be perfectly functional. The only issue is that Wizards are very vulnerable at low levels, but once you're over that hump the spellcasting power these guys can bring to bear makes them pretty devastating.
The Cleric should definitely focus on a melee build; dump charisma, minimum wisdom to cast your spells, and the rest to physical attributes for the best melee presence possible. Healing isn't really a big deal; channel energy is extremely inefficient for small parties anyways, and once you get a Wand of Cure Light Wounds you're pretty much set for life.
Depending on your starting level the Wizard may need some additional investment in physical attributes, but otherwise it's pretty much impossible to screw up a wizard build. Just remember the three golden rules of wizardry:
1) Pump intelligence
2) Don't be a universalist or any archetype that trades away the arcane school (exception granted for the Exploiter archetype)
3) Don't oppose conjuration or transmutation
Follow those rules, and you're pretty much guaranteed to get a great wizard. Spell selection is the tricky part with wizards, not the character build, but you can change that at any time if something isn't working for you.
If you want other class recommendations, anything that gets an animal companion or similar bonded ally is very good for small parties. Even familiars can be useful if they're able to use wands (though do keep them out of combat). Summoner has already been mentioned, but Druid is also great for many of the same reasons.
you could try a cleric with the Animal domain, which gets you an animal companion.
Thanks for the help! I notice a lot of people say a druid or summoner would be better than a wizard, I am open to playing a summoner but I hate druids mechanics.
yeah but in a 2 man party, wizard is very difficult to work with at low level. Just don't play rorl.
Since it is one of the two campaigns I own and I don't want to waist my money that isn't a very great suggestion...
I realize it is hard for a wizard at low level but past 5th level they start picking up, the reach cleric will help at low level and we will probably start with extra money or extra feats or somethinf.
I gave seen countless wizard builds that can SOLO most campaigns btw.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
If a wizard is clever and can make it past the early levels it's definitely possible.
If you are playing Runelords, Wizard is by far the most important party member. You need one.
Without any spoils, could you say why?
Also is it really important in other ap's?
If a wizard is clever and can make it past the early levels it's definitely possible.
I have played pathfidner for a couple of years and I am into optimizing/ min-maxing.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'd be very worried about running out of resources with a party like that. A lone cleric would need to rely on his magic to be able to handle melee combat singlehandedly; if you run out of spells for both characters, you're pretty boned. You're also going to be very low on skills.
One arcane and one divine is a nice combination, but I would swap out one or the other for something with a little more martial prowess and versatility. Perhaps the Cleric for a Paladin, Warpriest or Inquisitor, or the wizard for a Magus, Alchemist, or Investigator.
If you want two full casters, consider an Oracle. The Battle and Metal mysteries give you access to martial weapons and heavy armor, as well as several other survivability boosting revelations. Nature gives you an animal companion and some handy wilderness survival skills. Either way, Charisma as a casting stat and two extra skill ranks per level makes you a much better party face.
Oh, and beware your saving throws! If you both get knocked out by one nasty spell, it's an easy TPK.
I'd be very worried about running out of resources with a party like that. A lone cleric would need to rely on his magic to be able to handle melee combat singlehandedly; if you run out of spells for both characters, you're pretty boned. You're also going to be very low on skills.
One arcane and one divine is a nice combination, but I would swap out one or the other for something with a little more martial prowess and versatility. Perhaps the Cleric for a Paladin, Warpriest or Inquisitor, or the wizard for a Magus, Alchemist, or Investigator.
If you want two full casters, consider an Oracle. The Battle and Metal mysteries give you access to martial weapons and heavy armor, as well as several other survivability boosting revelations. Nature gives you an animal companion and some handy wilderness survival skills. Either way, Charisma as a casting stat and two extra skill ranks per level makes you a much better party face.
Oh, and beware your saving throws! If you both get knocked out by one nasty spell, it's an easy TPK.
I would agree resources could be a littlle of a problem but only at lower levels
Not sure what you are talking about with skills... Wizards are a soley int based class and always pump it, plus they have access to every knowledge skill.
The problem with wizard is that they have low HP and generally low AC. In a normal 4+ man party, they can hide behind other party members. In a 2 man party, they won't be able to do that. That makes it very difficult to play that without being invisible at encounter starts or using mirror image before encounters, etc.
Reach cleric won't be getting many attacks of opportunity against giants (rise of the runelords has lots of giants) unless you are also enlarged. You won't do enough damage to take out giants with a longspear.
I understand your first point, it is harder for a wizard to survive at lower levels.
By the time you would fight giants shouldn'f the wizard be high ebough level?
I am pretty sure that without fudging, a reach cleric+wizard would TPK at some point in rotrl.
It doesn't have to be a reach cleric, just a suggestion.
It could be any cleric that could tank like a battle cleric.
Also I have seen wizards solo rotrl...
Similarly to your other thread you're going to see a lot of suggestions that you should choose options that get you companions/cohorts. Action Economy is the key to PF more frequently than not.
If you are dead set against that and want to solo/duo an AP without such things then the combo you've selected is just as good as any really.
Basically since it's going to be difficult no matter what, you might as well give it a try. Just play your characters very cautiously, and pay lot's of attention.
I'm assuming you're doing this as some kind of challenge mode?
I understand your first point, it is harder for a wizard to survive at lower levels.By the time you would fight giants shouldn'f the wizard be high ebough level?
By the time you're fighting giants the wizard will definitely be coming into his own. With experience split 2 ways instead of 4 ways you'll also be a higher level than the curve, and can start pulling out some of the really crazy wizard spells. Planar Binding, Animate Dead, and Dominate Person all allow you to bring along minions, and that's just the tip of the iceberg of what a wizard can do at these levels. Low levels are definitely the concern for a wizard.
Similarly to your other thread you're going to see a lot of suggestions that you should choose options that get you companions/cohorts. Action Economy is the key to PF more frequently than not.
If you are dead set against that and want to solo/duo an AP without such things then the combo you've selected is just as good as any really.
Basically since it's going to be difficult no matter what, you might as well give it a try. Just play your characters very cautiously, and pay lot's of attention.
I'm assuming you're doing this as some kind of challenge mode?
Yah, It is supposed to be a challenge :)
Your party has no damage. The cleric is useless against giants and the wizard can't blast enough to kill them, so that leaves disabling giants with spells. Sooner or later one is going to make his save and kill the wizard.
If you are SO insistent that it won't work, why don't you give your own ideas? Huh?
|
|
I would agree resources could be a littlle of a problem but only at lower levels
Not sure what you are talking about with skills... Wizards are a soley int based class and always pump it, plus they have access to every knowledge skill.
Depending on how your GM is modifying the adventure path, you might be taxed even at higher levels. I'm playing a 7th level Cleric in a modified Curse of the Crimson Throne with a 5-6 man party, and I still end up running totally dry on spells AND domain abilities about two thirds of the way through every dungeon we go into, and that's with other healers in the party. Without the consistent muscle of our Ranger and Paladin we'd be boned. Ask your GM how he feels about long rests in dangerous areas.
Wizards are good knowledge monkeys, yes, but their class skill list leaves something to be desired. Just look at the class skills of, say, the Investigator and you may realize that a Cleric/Wizard party is going to be skill starved.
The investigator's class skills are Acrobatics (Dex), Appraise (Int), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Dex), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Heal (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (all) (Int), Linguistics (Int), Perception (Wis), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Spellcraft (Int), Stealth (Dex), and Use Magic Device (Cha).
Wizard would work with lots of summons or minions. I would switch out the reach cleric for a damage dealer.
Already said it doesn't have to be a reach cleric... More than once
I would agree resources could be a littlle of a problem but only at lower levels
Not sure what you are talking about with skills... Wizards are a soley int based class and always pump it, plus they have access to every knowledge skill.
Depending on how your GM is modifying the adventure path, you might be taxed even at higher levels. I'm playing a 7th level Cleric in a modified Curse of the Crimson Throne with a 5-6 man party, and I still end up running totally dry on spells AND domain abilities about two thirds of the way through every dungeon we go into, and that's with other healers in the party. Without the consistent muscle of our Ranger and Paladin we'd be boned. Ask your GM how he feels about long rests in dangerous areas.
Wizards are good knowledge monkeys, yes, but their class skill list leaves something to be desired. Just look at the class skills of, say, the Investigator and you may realize that a Cleric/Wizard party is going to be skill starved.
The investigator's class skills are Acrobatics (Dex), Appraise (Int), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Dex), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Heal (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (all) (Int), Linguistics (Int), Perception (Wis), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Spellcraft (Int), Stealth (Dex), and Use Magic Device (Cha).
Yah, resources will be limited. But having 5-6 people could also be part of the problem. More people to heal and buff.
Inquisitor with an Animal Companion would pack more punch than a Cleric in this situation. Inquisitor casting isn't as fantastic as the Cleric's, but you get more skills and more combat abilities to compensate.
If you're really set on being a Cleric, you could consider the Evangelist or Herald Caller Cleric with the Animal domain or Feather subdomain. This gets you an animal companion and either some BAB-substitute hit bonus bard buffs (Evangelist), or more bodies on the field (Herald Caller). If you go this route, you should consider switching the Wizard over to a more martial arcane caster, such as the Magus, Investigator, or Bard (Assuming you don't pick Evangelist, or select a self-focused Bard archetype like the Archeologist).
I don't need to play cleric, but they are quite self sufficient and are full casters, so I suggested them.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I would have your spellcaster be a witch or a shaman. Have that be your healer as well as your blaster. Then go with a slayer for fighting and skills.
Have you considered a Magus and a Warpriest for your party of 2? You would then have characters who are a bit more combat capable than a Wizard and a Cleric but who otherwise function in a similar manner. As they gain levels, they would pick up combat options at the expense of their spell progression.
Have you considered a Magus and a Warpriest for your party of 2? You would then have characters who are a bit more combat capable than a Wizard and a Cleric but who otherwise function in a similar manner. As they gain levels, they would pick up combat options at the expense of their spell progression.
I did consider warpriesr and he looks pretty good, but I am worried he might not have the punch for the later books in rotrl and/or s&s.
I despise magus because because it is too "gishy" for me and I don't like it's spell/combat mechanics.
Your party has no damage. The cleric is useless against giants and the wizard can't blast enough to kill them, so that leaves disabling giants with spells. Sooner or later one is going to make his save and kill the wizard.If you are SO insistent that it won't work, why don't you give your own ideas? Huh?
Let me share my ideas for the proper 2 man team composition to beat a 5 man basketball team:
I would have your spellcaster be a witch or a shaman. Have that be your healer as well as your blaster. Then go with a slayer for fighting and skills.
Will look into that, thanks
Your party has no damage. The cleric is useless against giants and the wizard can't blast enough to kill them, so that leaves disabling giants with spells. Sooner or later one is going to make his save and kill the wizard.If you are SO insistent that it won't work, why don't you give your own ideas? Huh?Let me share my ideas for the proper 2 man team composition to beat a 5 man basketball team:
AKA why the downvote system should exist.
Or you know...
Roll two bards...
And make a mother f@#*ing band! One half-orc who plays a guitaraxe and another who plays war drums and bashes heads in with drum sticks.
Or two humans rocket guitarists...
Or two halfing flutists who laugh while mond controlling their enemies.
Hmm... This idea seems pretty fun, maybe not effective though
Another fun option could be a Stealth group. Go with, say, a stealthy Gnome Wizard Illusionist and a Dark Tapestry Halfling Oracle with the Deaf curse (free Silent Spell!) and bypass as many encounters as possible, then blast the unavoidable ones into submission. Sneaky sneaky
Does seem neat...
Dotting...