Am I playing Varril something wrong? seems too powerful.


Rules Questions and Gameplay Discussion


Varril Link : http://static3.paizo.com/image/content/PathfinderACG/PZO6814-VarrilFront.jp g

I'm playing Varril on RotR AD 3 right now (box rule with only character sheet) and my feat is like below.

Divine: d8 + 7
Hand Size: 7
proficient with : light armors / weapons
powers: recharge a card to use divine instead of any

He, Varril looks like incarnation of Shelyn inspired by Zon-Kuthon.

- He fascinate every boon to his side way ease (recharge to d8+7 )
- He destruct every bane (for combat - he uses all weapons as divine concluding 2d8 + 8 + @ while AD 3)
- He explores 2~4 times a turn consistently (spamming his power, ally, blessing with several cures)

furthermore, later role 'Incorruptible' will give passive +4 to all checks, more stabilized explores and others making him truly indestructible.

Is he... ok??
Am I playing something wrong? like... his powers are limited to use 1 per turn? (as far as I know it is 1 per check)

Do I feel like so because I'm just AD 3 ?


I think you are playing him correctly.

The reason why everything is so easy is because RotR is not very hard, and since you reached your max potential already (and that Varril is somehow a bit broken).

You will see that the later ADs will get harder than the additional +4 you will get from the incorruptible role (the game will be almost done once you get that power fully unlocked, anyway). This means you will need to spend additional ressources on your checks and as a consequence, your number of explorations per turn will go down accordingly.

In particular, once there are more multiple checks on your banes, you will need to invest several cards to convert all of them to divine, because as a one-trick-pony, you won't accomplish much otherwise.

It will still feel easy most likely, but this is to be expected since soloing is mostly easier anyway, and Varril is designed around negating the only downside of playing solo. Using healing on top trivializes the gameplay completely.

Silver Crusade

We had a Varril player in our group for SotRu, and at first we were all jealous. But after awhile, he got boring. Everything was too easy for him, with his +11 to all checks. I had really wanted to play him, but watching him turned me off. I think I'm going to like Salim a lot better from that deck.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Card Game, Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

That is the problem with Varril is that things become easy. The hardest is when you are required to do multiple checks and you start running out of the cards you can recharge vs the cards you want to keep. It also depends if you have a healer in the party because if he's the divine caster, you're wanting to hold onto that Cure spell. Also, coming up against banes like Trolls make things a bit sticky if you don't have the right cards in hand. Sure, you can defeat them but they regenerate.

Honestly, I look at Varril as the ultimate handyman when you need a character to fill in the holes of a party rather than a character I'd want to play first.


Doppelschwert //

thank you =) I can see how AD will going to be. and glad I see the word "Varril is a bit broken" lol

Eliandra Giltessan //
Thats what makes me sad too. Just finished AD 3, and I think there wont be a lot to change

Theryon Stormrune //
yap! I was looking for versatile character and chose Varril, but he was actually "ultimate handyman".

Thank you everyone =)
I can see many ppl think same as me =)


Evanax wrote:
- He destruct every bane (for combat - he uses all weapons as divine concluding 2d8 + 8 + @ while AD 3)

Actually, I'm not sure that's possible with his power.

MM rulebook p.11 wrote:
Some cards allow you to use a particular skill for a specific type of check, or to use one skill instead of another. (These cards generally say things like “For your combat check, use your Strength or Melee skill,” or “Use your Strength skill instead of your Diplomacy skill.”) You may play only 1 such card or use only 1 such power to determine which skill you’re using.

(This is also in the RotR rulebook, p.11, but less explicit.)

Since both a weapon and his power determine the skill you're using, you couldn't use both on the same check. That would make Varril very versatile for most checks, but rather weak in combat (either a weapon + his D6 Strength or Dex, a combat spell, for which he has few slots available, or his unmodified Divine skill using his power), balancing out a bit.


Shnik wrote:
Since both a weapon and his power determine the skill you're using, you couldn't use both on the same check. That would make Varril very versatile for most checks, but rather weak in combat (either a weapon + his D6 Strength or Dex, a combat spell, for which he has few slots available, or his unmodified Divine skill using his power), balancing out a bit.

skizzerz argued otherwise in a previous thread. I think Vic's comments in that thread agree with skizzerz, but I have to say I see your point.

(Also: "unmodified"? I guess you mean without adding anything from a weapon. So, in deck 5 he could be rolling d8 + 11.)

Varil's power wrote:
When you attempt any check, you may discard (□ or recharge) a card to use your Divine skill instead of any listed skill.
Vic on what is a 'listed skill' wrote:
Anything that refers to "listed skills" for a check includes the skills specified by the card itself and, if the card specifies Combat, the skill that you're using for combat. So if a card specifies a check as Combat 9 or Charisma 6, and you're using your Melee skill for the combat check, the listed skills are Melee and Charisma.

(Link to that comment.)

Vic indicates in the "Determine which skill you are using" step of "Attempting a check", you determine the skill you are using for combat (say, Dexterity, by playing a Light Crossbow). This makes Dexterity a listed skill.

This suggests that Varril's power is not used in this step, but is used later, possibly in the "Play cards and use powers that affect your check" step.

However, I take Shnik's point. Varil's power sounds like it is determining the skill he is using for a check. Why isn't it used in the "Determine which skill you are using" step?


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

We never played Varril... because we are very afraid that he may be broken (as per the current thread). It seems to us that Mavaro is just Varril, but fixed.
This said we may be wrong so I would really appreciate a feedback from Mike/Vic on both 1) what he can and cannot do with his power and 2) why isn't he broken.
In the RPG we already are suspicious vs Inquisitors because they really feel like just "better Clerics" (which would be unfair to clerics). So maybe it's just our suspicion passing on the card game.

Grand Lodge

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If Varril is walking around with a Greatclub +1:

For your combat check, reveal this card to use your Strength or Melee skill + 1d10+1; you may additionally discard this card to add your Strength die. If not proficient with weapons, the difficulty of this check is increased by 4.

And he already took Weapon proficiency as a power feat as any good Varril would do. Plus he took the recharge power feat in "When you attempt any check, you may discard (■ or recharge) a card to use your Divine skill instead of any listed skill."

If he comes up against your standard monster, he'd reveal his greatclub. That defines which skills he's going to use for the combat (Strength or Melee). (Which for Strength is simply a 1d6+1d10+1 without any skill feats in Strength added or other modifiers.) But he's going to use his power. He recharges his Spyglass from his hand (or even the Greatclub +1 can be recharged!) and decides to use his Divine skill instead of the listed Strength skill. Now he's 1d8+7+1d10+1 with all four skill feats in Wisdom checked off and no other powers activated.

The problem with what Shnik is saying in his last paragraph ("Since both a weapon and his power determine the skill you're using, you couldn't use both on the same check.") is that the weapon lists the skill and Varril's power can now be activated to change that skill to Divine.

His power isn't that it's used to determine the skill being utilized for the check. It's that it is later when you use a power to affect the check. That's why you can't turn around and play a Blessing of Shelyn because while it is now a Wisdom-based check, it is still a combat check. In fact, it is a Divine check which plays into Varril's later role power(s).

Varril always needs to have a skill already "determined" for a check before activating his power. It's a formality but needed. His power changes the skill actually being used (to his Divine skill).


Pathfinder Card Game, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I (mostly) maintain what I said in my earlier linked post. Note the rule (p8) "If a power says it may be used when something happens, you may use it every time that happens." The Golden Rule that says "cannot overrides can" only applies to conflicts between cards, not conflicts in the rulebook, so the "When" portion of Varril's power allows it to override the "only one card or power to determine the skill you are using" rule in the rulebook, allowing both to be played.

Theryon does a good job of explaining it more in depth, and I think I agree with him more on the sequencing of when the power activates rather than my earlier post on the topic. If used earlier in the check, it can be further modified by cards and powers that key off Divine or Wisdom, which would not be possible if it was actually applied in "Assemble Your Dice." As Varril has such a power on a role card, it would be somewhat nonsensical if the two powers didn't work in concert with each other, therefore I believe Theryon's timing is more consistent with designer intent. After considering it more, I view the power as happening during "Determine Which Skill You're Using" -- it triggers after you determine the skill you are using but before you move on to play any cards or use any powers that affect your check. If it could happen anytime during the play cards/use powers step, you could theoretically double-dip skills/blessings. For example, play a Greatclub and reveal Belt of Giant Strength to add a bonus to his Strength check, and then change the type to Divine and get a further bonus from his character power. I do not believe such a thing should be allowable (it seems awfully cheesy), so that is why I view the trigger as happening during the determine which skill you're using step.

My question from that linked post (When is "When you attempt a check") is still valid though, and having an answer to that would help further clarify what this power can and cannot be used for. Or, a slightly better question would be "What should 'when you attempt a check' be re-worded to in order to make the timing of the power more clear?"

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Card Game, Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I'd have to agree with you about the timing. I do think that once the skill is determined then use the power to modify which actual skill is used then items, blessings and allies can be applied which affect the check.

But this is one of those instances where I see that the power works as written. I realize that some (of us) need everything written out in the rules but most times, stuff like this works just fine without clarification. You can't use his power until a skill is already determined by a check to defeat, a check to acquire, or what skill is being used by a weapon in combat. Mavaro's power is a bit more quirky and did need a bit of explaining since it doesn't actually become an intelligence based check. Plus his additional powers don't work in concert as well as Varril's. (The bonus to Divine checks.)

In any case, Varril is very powerful but kinda boring.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
skizzerz wrote:
For example, play a Greatclub and reveal Belt of Giant Strength to add a bonus to his Strength check, and then change the type to Divine and get a further bonus from his character power.

Wouldn't that mean that you just lose the Belt's bonus, as it doesn't have a valid 'target check' anymore? I mean, there's still a potential for cheese, if you had to recharge the Belt (hm, let's make that a Strength spell, shall we?) - you would essentially get a free "get out of my hand" for the Strength spell, or whatever, for a check that you *know* is not going to end up being a Strength check. But regardless, the spell, or the item, says "add X to your Strength check" - so when you roll the dice for your (already) Divine check, you don't roll any bonus dice that are added to 'your Strength check', and when you're calculating the result - you don't add any "add X to your Strength check" modifiers.

(all of the above is based on the assumption that you *substitute* the original check type for Divine, as opposed to "I'm still making a Strength check, but I'm actually rolling my Divine skill" - and I think Vic & Mike's jury is still out on that one)


I dont know the exact timing and theory about how checks go. but i think.. Varril should not be allowed to use his power on weapons-


He kind of has to be able to use his skill swapping power on weapons or a person playing Varril in OP would be virtually useless during combat checks. Also, Vic's comments in previous threads seem to indicate that Varril is intended to use his skill swap when playing weapons.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Card Game, Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Longshot11 wrote:
skizzerz wrote:
For example, play a Greatclub and reveal Belt of Giant Strength to add a bonus to his Strength check, and then change the type to Divine and get a further bonus from his character power.

Wouldn't that mean that you just lose the Belt's bonus, as it doesn't have a valid 'target check' anymore? I mean, there's still a potential for cheese, if you had to recharge the Belt (hm, let's make that a Strength spell, shall we?) - you would essentially get a free "get out of my hand" for the Strength spell, or whatever, for a check that you *know* is not going to end up being a Strength check. But regardless, the spell, or the item, says "add X to your Strength check" - so when you roll the dice for your (already) Divine check, you don't roll any bonus dice that are added to 'your Strength check', and when you're calculating the result - you don't add any "add X to your Strength check" modifiers.

(all of the above is based on the assumption that you *substitute* the original check type for Divine, as opposed to "I'm still making a Strength check, but I'm actually rolling my Divine skill" - and I think Vic & Mike's jury is still out on that one)

Actually, I think this falls into the category of not being able to play cards when they're not appropriate. For example, you can't play a Cure spell when no characters at your location have cards in their discard pile. You wouldn't be able to play the Strength spell because you're not making a check based on your strength. And as far as Mike and Vic are concerned, from what has been written and what the power states, it says instead. That doesn't mean that it is a Strength check, it is a Divine check instead.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Card Game, Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Evanax wrote:
I dont know the exact timing and theory about how checks go. but i think.. Varril should not be allowed to use his power on weapons-

Not sure why you'd think this. If a combat check is required, once you play a weapon, you determine the skill based on what is listed on the weapon. Varril's power then can be used to make it a Divine check instead of that listed (weapon) skill.


Theryon Stormrune wrote:
And as far as Mike and Vic are concerned, from what has been written and what the power states, it says instead. That doesn't mean that it is a Strength check, it is a Divine check instead.

Just to be clear: the question about whether Varril's check retains the original check type when he uses his power to use his Divine skill definitely does not yet have an official answer.

This is the latest word.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Card Game, Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
elcoderdude wrote:
Theryon Stormrune wrote:
And as far as Mike and Vic are concerned, from what has been written and what the power states, it says instead. That doesn't mean that it is a Strength check, it is a Divine check instead.

Just to be clear: the question about whether Varril's check retains the original check type when he uses his power to use his Divine skill definitely does not yet have an official answer.

This is the latest word.

Agreed that it doesn't have an official answer, but until then, because it says "instead", it seems reasonable that Varril's Divine skill is used instead of the listed skill. Until Vic says otherwise.


There's a long discussion on that thread.

At issue is: what changes, after Varril uses his power? Is a different skill now listed, or is it just that a different skill is being used by the character?

(We don't need to rehash that here. Multiple posters went round and round on that thread.)

I don't think it is clear cut.

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