Organized Play Coordinator
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Nefreet is correct that bonuses from items are permanent after 24 hours of use. For an ioun stone, it would need to be continuously orbiting or slotted into a wayfinder. For slotted items such as headbands, they need to be worn (even in the shower).
The issue with these ranks qualifying for rewards is that these ranks can come and go based on a character's possession of the item. As these ranks are removable, what happens if/when the item isn't worn/carried? Do you go back and remove the checkmark from the Faction Journal Card? Consider the Medium's ability Trickster's Edge, where they have skill ranks they can flex from one skill to another. Can they qualify as completing a Faction Journal Card item?
As both of these would amount in quite a bit of bookkeeping and gaining/losing benefits, all ranks used to qualify for faction benefit must be permanent part to the character.
We will add this to the updated FAQ as part of the faction section.
Thanks for asking the question!
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Nefreet is correct that bonuses from items are permanent after 24 hours of use. For an ioun stone, it would need to be continuously orbiting or slotted into a wayfinder. For slotted items such as headbands, they need to be worn (even in the shower).
The issue with these ranks qualifying for rewards is that these ranks can come and go based on a character's possession of the item. As these ranks are removable, what happens if/when the item isn't worn/carried? Do you go back and remove the checkmark from the Faction Journal Card? Consider the Medium's ability Trickster's Edge, where they have skill ranks they can flex from one skill to another. Can they qualify as completing a Faction Journal Card item?
As both of these would amount in quite a bit of bookkeeping and gaining/losing benefits, all ranks used to qualify for faction benefit must be permanent part to the character.
We will add this to the updated FAQ as part of the faction section.
Thanks for asking the question!
I don't like your answer. Whine, whine. ;-)
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Nefreet is correct that bonuses from items are permanent after 24 hours of use. For an ioun stone, it would need to be continuously orbiting or slotted into a wayfinder. For slotted items such as headbands, they need to be worn (even in the shower).
The issue with these ranks qualifying for rewards is that these ranks can come and go based on a character's possession of the item. As these ranks are removable, what happens if/when the item isn't worn/carried? Do you go back and remove the checkmark from the Faction Journal Card? Consider the Medium's ability Trickster's Edge, where they have skill ranks they can flex from one skill to another. Can they qualify as completing a Faction Journal Card item?
As both of these would amount in quite a bit of bookkeeping and gaining/losing benefits, all ranks used to qualify for faction benefit must be permanent part to the character.
We will add this to the updated FAQ as part of the faction section.
Thanks for asking the question!
How is that any different then stat items giving you access to feats with a stat prereq?
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Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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It's really a question of "how permanent should qualifying ranks be" - you could retrain skill ranks once you've used them to qualify for a faction goal.
You might not keep that skill maxed out next time you level up after checking the box - I don't think that would/should require unchecking the box.
As I understand, qualifying for checking a box is tested only during the game session where you check the box. Also, bonuses gained from "24h permanent" items are good enough to qualify for feat and PrC prerequisites.
It's pretty unusual to be able to sell back items that would give you bonus skills, at least at full value. Meaning that at its cheasiest it's a 2000GP ticket to mark off a checkbox - that's much more expensive than many other boxes.
(Also, I think John Compton made a ruling about being allowed to take off 24H items for hygiene reasons occasionally without interrupting the effect, as long as you don't try to take advantage by slotting other things in between.)
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Organized Play Coordinator
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But only remove your headband to wash your hair! While washing your body, put it back on. ;)
There are no Faction Journal Cards that require feats, as far as I could tell on my read through.
You don't need the skills maxed - the box asks for 4 ranks in a skill.
This is a specific ruling regarding checkboxes on Faction Journal Cards. It was made after discussing with the team. Regarding Lau's comment on "qualifying is tested only during the game session" that is incorrect. If a task is fulfilled in a game session, it is checked off. But this is an ongoing standing with your Faction. If you consistently do something then take it back, you don't impress your faction, therefore you wouldn't continue to accumulate improved benefits.
It does not have any bearing on qualifying for feats/PrC prerequisites.
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Venture-Agent, Nebraska—Omaha
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You don't need the skills maxed - the box asks for 4 ranks in a skill.
Possess a number of ranks in one of the following skills equal to your character level (minimum 4): Bluff, Knowledge (arcana), Profession (archivist, librarian, or scribe), Spellcraft, or Use Magic Device
Tonya, several goals do require ranks equal to your character level, that is to say, maxed.
For ongoing faction benefits are you required to keep that skill at max ranks? Or required to stay above the minimum? Or something else?
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Venture-Agent, Nebraska—Omaha
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Faction goal cards are for promoting faction flavor and ideals. Each card represents roleplaying and investment opportunities to show how well your character aligns with their chosen faction.
Allowing that sort of abuse devalues factions for every player in the campaign.
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Faction goal cards are for promoting faction flavor and ideals. Each card represents roleplaying and investment opportunities to show how well your character aligns with their chosen faction.
Allowing that sort of abuse devalues factions for every player in the campaign.
What kind of abuse, though? I think there are only two ways to "abuse" this right now:
1. the Medium's temporary ranks, and2. loaning someone else your headband or ioun stone to attune and temporarily get enough ranks in a skill
Otherwise you're looking at paying 2,000 gp, or a fair amount of prestige--which given the return on investment, does not seem like much of an exploit at all. (I'd think it's kind of a terrible use of resources, actually.)
Neither one of those seems to be a common problem. Certainly it seems like overkill to change how the card works and punish a large but not insignificant minority of players in order to prevent a very small number of exploits... all for a checkbox that's pretty easy to get anyway.
I mean, you could leave it as it is, and nothing seems to break... you could write an FAQ that temporary ranks from the Medium do not apply. You could add to that FAQ that you must own any items granting permanent bonuses used to meet requirements for the cards, I guess.
Are there any other avenues of exploitation that I'm missing?
I personally am in favor of not making this any more complicated than it needs to be. Not that us commenters necessarily get a vote. :)
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Venture-Agent, Nebraska—Omaha
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I wouldn't consider a Medium's Trickster's Edge to qualify in the first place.
Just update the overall faction card rules: reducing the number of ranks you posses to below the minimum to qualify sets the goal to incomplete.
It doesn't need to be complicated, it just has to be clear that bypassing the expectations of the faction card is not okay.
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So, if I check that box at level 4, I'm locked into putting my 1 skill rank per level into diplomacy for the rest of my PFS career, or lose the check?
Forget that!
(I know, I could give up a hit point to put my favored class bonus into a skill point. This PC will be playing Bonekeep starting at level 7, so I don't think that would be a good idea.)
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So, if I check that box at level 4, I'm locked into putting my 1 skill rank per level into diplomacy for the rest of my PFS career, or lose the check?
Forget that!
(I know, I could give up a hit point to put my favored class bonus into a skill point. This PC will be playing Bonekeep starting at level 7, so I don't think that would be a good idea.)
that would be the logical extension of the magic item not working.
or your actual skill ranks could be different than the skill ranks in your floating rock of knowing stuff
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INT boosting items have a provision that a specific skill is selected for each bonus skill point per level the item would grant and the user receives max ranks per level in that skill rather than distributing skill points as the user chooses. This would meet the requirement of the faction card goal after the item is attuned. The question comes down to whether the goal is still considered to be met if the character's situation changes so that he no longer has the skill ranks required, for example if the PC were to meet the goal using ranks gained from an INT-boost item and later sell it, if the PC no longer puts max ranks into the skill after meeting the goal, or if the PC retrains the skill ranks after meeting the goal. Tonya said earlier that she was going to discuss the issue with the PFS team and get back, but I imagine that they are all taking a much-needed break and we'll just need to wait for a ruling.
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It's just an unavoidable effect of the number of players in PFS.
I fundamentally disagree. Instilling a community value of trusting your GM or VO when they answer the question will go a long way to stopping it. The question will be asked and answered without ever reaching the campaign staff.
The campaign coordinator should not be treated as 'mom' when 'dad' gives you an answer you don't like.
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It's just an unavoidable effect of the number of players in PFS.I fundamentally disagree. Instilling a community value of trusting your GM or VO when they answer the question will go a long way to stopping it. The question will be asked and answered without ever reaching the campaign staff.
The campaign coordinator should not be treated as 'mom' when 'dad' gives you an answer you don't like.
We'll have to agree to disagree. You're looking at a rough incidence rate of one hundredth of one percent per active PFS ID per month if you assume that half of the PFS IDs issued are active. (Give or take a few hundredths of a percent.)
At that rate, you already have a handle on this! Reducing incidence rates even further tends to be insanely expensive--and require levels of control that Paizo, frankly, doesn't make enough money to enforce. In sysadmin parlance, you're already at four freakin' nines. (That's really good!) But if PFS keeps growing and adds another 25,000 active players in two more years, you're still going to be looking at an increase of 25 questions per month. Which can seem like a lot when you only really get exposed to the number of questions asked in the forum.
Can you bend that curve? With numbers that small, you're not looking at a single problem, cultural or not. You're looking at hundreds of edge cases, each leading to a forum post in a slightly different way. "Fixing" that gets expensive fast because they're all different, and then you have to invest in updating your bureaucracy every time something new comes up, which it will. Culture solutions sound nice (or dystopian!) but humans are messy; culture doesn't prevent edge cases. Bureaucracy can solve this, but bureaucracy has its own problems. Hopefully nobody here wants more bureaucracy.
And anyway--forget all that--unless you know something I don't about the OP's situation, it doesn't sound like "dad" was never asked? So after all that work we hypothetically did to create a culture of trusting your VO staff, this same question would still be asked.
My opinion still stands--if too many questions on the forum is actually a problem (and I'm not convinced that it is) it's easier for the campaign staff to sit down and do a bit of a self-critique and see if there's anything they could do to better handle a few edge case questions every month.
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A community is more than one table, so you're wrong there. And as far as I know, an audit will not change an earned reward unless it is clearly breaking a rule, such as an item purchased for the wrong cost. And if so, then you go to whoever is over the two GMs for a decision. Like I said before.
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It totally should be (if it isn't) that once you've checked the box you're free to do whatever you want. lv4+ complete scenario, have had max ranks during scenario, check box, retrain skills out, should be something valid for you to do (not like you'd want to, retraining skills is expensive). You completed the goal. Nothing in the goal seems to indicate some persistent requirement nor do any other goal imply a persistent requirement after completion.
Like whatever leadership says is law. Just making these few factions now have a persistent goal requirement really changes the balance of the goals in my mind. And that the card wasn't made with a persistent goal in mind.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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To me the goal really reads like "take this exam now", not "keep taking this exam every session".
There's one very explicit limit on it (minimum 4 ranks); it doesn't make sense that there's another hidden limit.
And none of the other goals require ongoing maintenance either.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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I rather liked the way the faction cards were originally introduced, as fairly freeform things, including the clause:
Err on the side of leniency when ruling whether or not a PC fulfilled a faction objective; for example, defeating an undead creature does not necessarily mean striking the killing blow, and someone who actively contributes to the combat almost certainly qualifies.
That clause is still there in S8, but if you've followed the "is a pearl of power a gem/is an elemental gem a gem" debate you can see that this kind of GM liberty doesn't sit easy with everyone. As a result, we now have a specific mention of what constitutes a sufficiently shiny gem.
Writing clearly is good of course, but let's not get bogged down in overly tight clauses. Clear goals that can sometimes be achieved in surprising ways are much more fun.
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I'd fall in the "check once" camp as well for what I'd like to see, but with perhaps one exception. I don't want to see player characters borrowing someone else's ioun stone (or headband, or whatever) to magically check off a faction goal.
At at least some point in time, the ranks ought to be owned by the PC. I don't like the idea that they can qualify and then retrain out ranks or sell the ioun stone or whatever, but I'm willing to live with it in the name of reduced bookkeeping & such.
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I'd fall in the "check once" camp as well for what I'd like to see, but with perhaps one exception. I don't want to see player characters borrowing someone else's ioun stone (or headband, or whatever) to magically check off a faction goal.
At at least some point in time, the ranks ought to be owned by the PC. I don't like the idea that they can qualify and then retrain out ranks or sell the ioun stone or whatever, but I'm willing to live with it in the name of reduced bookkeeping & such.
Oh totally their own resources.
If they are willing to spend the min 2,000gp to buy and sell an item and delay your real headband, just to meet a faction goal. Sure, if it was that important to you to have that checked you've paid for it. I feel it's not something that will be done much at all.