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Yes, but why would you do that?
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I'm afraid I think the answer is 'no.'
I have a CN Druid whom I'd have liked to have worship Yog-Sothoth, but apparently she can't (and as would go one Mythos deity, so would go the others).
Some might say it doesn't matter for those who aren't divine spellcasters, but given the existence of things like Religion Traits and feats keyed to specific deity-worship, it actually still does.
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Some might say it doesn't matter for those who aren't divine spellcasters, but given the existence of things like Religion Traits and feats keyed to specific deity-worship, it actually still does.
That doesn't remotely follow, at all. Otherwise "none" wouldn't be a valid option, and that definitely is.
That there are deity related options does not mean that you must be able to take them.
Using your logic here:
There are zon kothon options available, taking torag as your patron makes you unable to take them, therefore torag isn't a legal option.
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I'm afraid I think the answer is 'no.'
I have a CN Druid whom I'd have liked to have worship Yog-Sothoth, but apparently she can't (and as would go one Mythos deity, so would go the others).
Some might say it doesn't matter for those who aren't divine spellcasters, but given the existence of things like Religion Traits and feats keyed to specific deity-worship, it actually still does.
There are two different terms in PFS for people that think that deity X (just using this as an example) is pretty cool, "worship" and "venerate".
Venerate: Venerate refers to the relationship between a PC and a specific deity, pantheon, or philosophy of some sort where the PC follows the cause but gains no specific mechanical reward as a result of doing so. Player characters are able to venerate any Golarion- specific deity, pantheon, or philosophy they wish without alignment concern.
Worship: In this context, worship refers to a relationship held between a PC and a deity where the PC, in exchange for his dedicated worship, gains a mechanical benefit (e.g. a cleric’s spells and abilities, a deity-specific feat or trait, special functions of magical weapons, or prerequisites for a prestige class). PCs may only worship one campaign-legal deity and must always be within one step of their chosen deity’s alignment. See page 24 for more rules on worshiping a deity and how to change the deity a PC worships.
So if the OP wants to venerate Cthulhu, as he said, he is allowed to. I expect that is what the OP was asking, since venerate is a pretty specific term. If he wanted to worship Cthulhu and get any sort of mechanical advantage (like feats, traits, etc.) from Cthulhu, he could not.
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Some might say it doesn't matter for those who aren't divine spellcasters, but given the existence of things like Religion Traits and feats keyed to specific deity-worship, it actually still does.That doesn't remotely follow, at all. Otherwise "none" wouldn't be a valid option, and that definitely is.
That there are deity related options does not mean that you must be able to take them.
Using your logic here:
There are zon kothon options available, taking torag as your patron makes you unable to take them, therefore torag isn't a legal option.
I'm...not following. To the best I can follow, however, my rebuttal would be that this is because "none/atheism/godlessness," despite being an absence, is treated for this purpose as sort of a positive quantity (i.e. I worship No God!). As evidence (as well as a better way of saying it if I messed up that last part), let me point to the Godless Healing feat, which is like a feat pegged to deity-worship, save that it requires you to not worship any deity.
At any rate, Mitch found something I think we can break bread over, so no big deal.
I agree. It seems clear. You can venerate any deity from Golarion without worry.
It's like picking up that trait that makes you a Hell Knight, without actually being a Hell Knight...
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I'm in a "Wounded Wisp" game right now with a Warlock Vigilante who serves Razmir, and I'm pretty sure he'd say he "worships," and does not just "venerate," Razmir. Is that Society-legal? I'm not sure it is (I have a Razmiran Priest Sorcerer myself, but he's an apostate who enjoys few things more than striking against his former cult).
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I said "venerate" and I meant "venerate" in the game sense. Although, I can see what I'm Hiding In Your Closet means when he is talking about the character would likely still say that they worship the deity. But then characters do not understand game terms much less know that they are part of a game.
I am having trouble understanding what else this could mean if not that you can venerate any Golarion Deity:
Player characters are able to venerate any Golarion- specific deity, pantheon, or philosophy they wish without alignment concern.
A poster in another thread is continually suggesting that I would be doing something illegal. I believe his rationale is that this text simply means that the alignment concern doesn't matter but it doesn't put "illegal deities" on the table.
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In game, a character can say he worships Razmir when, mechanically, he only venerates Razmir.
Just like a character, in game, can say he's an assassin when, mechanically, he's just a rogue.
In game, it doesn't matter that a character believes or says something that isn't true or isn't possible, as long as the player knows the difference and has built and is playing the character legally.
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I said "venerate" and I meant "venerate" in the game sense. Although, I can see what I'm Hiding In Your Closet means when he is talking about the character would likely still say that they worship the deity. But then characters do not understand game terms much less know that they are part of a game.
I am having trouble understanding what else this could mean if not that you can venerate any Golarion Deity:
Player characters are able to venerate any Golarion- specific deity, pantheon, or philosophy they wish without alignment concern.A poster in another thread is continually suggesting that I would be doing something illegal. I believe his rationale is that this text simply means that the alignment concern doesn't matter but it doesn't put "illegal deities" on the table.
The part you quoted calls out "for alignment concern".
In the very next section on Worship it calls out alignment and legality. Whether you can venerate an illegal Deity is where the question arises.
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I'm in a "Wounded Wisp" game right now with a Warlock Vigilante who serves Razmir, and I'm pretty sure he'd say he "worships," and does not just "venerate," Razmir. Is that Society-legal? I'm not sure it is (I have a Razmiran Priest Sorcerer myself, but he's an apostate who enjoys few things more than striking against his former cult).
The character worships razmir in game.
The player has made the decision that the character venerates Razmir.
The DM should be able to interpret the second from the first.
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In the very next section on Worship it calls out alignment and legality. Whether you can venerate an illegal Deity is where the question arises.
I don't see how it's a question.
Razmir is not a legal deity. Venerating him locks you out of all legitimate faith traits, classes, prestige classes, and other mechanical benefits. But a number of legal archetypes and feats are built around his veneration.
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In the very next section on Worship it calls out alignment and legality. Whether you can venerate an illegal Deity is where the question arises.
I don't see how it's a question.
Razmir is not a legal deity. Venerating him locks you out of all legitimate faith traits, classes, prestige classes, and other mechanical benefits. But a number of legal archetypes and feats are built around his veneration.
To my knowledge Razmir is legal, but he's not a Deity. Just like how you can worship Aroden even though he is dead and you gain no benefits from him, he's still legal.
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To my knowledge Razmir is legal, but he's not a Deity. Just like how you can worship Aroden even though he is dead and you gain no benefits from him, he's still legal.
legal to what? Worship requires a deity
Worship: In this context, worship refers to a relationship held between a PC and a deity where the PC, in exchange for his dedicated worship, gains a mechanical benefit (e.g. a cleric’s spells and abilities, a deity-specific feat or trait, special functions of magical weapons, or prerequisites for a prestige class). PCs may only worship one campaign-legal deity and must always be within one step of their chosen deity’s alignment. See page 24 for more rules on worshiping a deity and how to change the deity a PC worships.
You can venerate aroden. You cannot worship him.
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Gods: all of the gods listed in the appendix are legal choices except daemon harbingers, great old ones, infernal dukes, malebranche, nascent demon lords, orc deities, outer gods, qlippoth lords, and whore queens. A PC may worship a dead deity, but such gods grant no spells or other benefits;
A PC can in fact worship Aroden.
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Gods: all of the gods listed in the appendix are legal choices except daemon harbingers, great old ones, infernal dukes, malebranche, nascent demon lords, orc deities, outer gods, qlippoth lords, and whore queens. A PC may worship a dead deity, but such gods grant no spells or other benefits;A PC can in fact worship Aroden.
Which makes what difference? if worship is defined as giving mechanical stuff but you can worship without getting mechanical stuff....
there's no mechanism for telling a character that he's role playing wrong, and lets be clear, thats what saying you can't venerate cuthulu is doing here. You're trying to tell the player that, for some reason, the character venerating a thing of immense power that canonically exists that you want to step in as the DM and stop how they're role playing their character.
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Rysky: What BNW is asking when he says "legal to what?" is for you to show where Cthulhu is not a legal deity to venerate. There is no question that he is a not a legal deity to worship but that is not what is being discussed here.
Also, Aroden is not legal for worship. You can venerate him. Venerate is the legal term used to describe thinking a god is great but gaining no mechanical benefits. Your reference to Inner Sea Gods is basically saying that without using the term venerate which wasn't coined until AFTER that book came out. The term is discussed in the Guide as has been quoted in this thread multiple times.
"such gods grant no spells or other benefits;" = "a specific deity, pantheon, or philosophy of some sort where the PC follows the cause but gains no specific mechanical reward as a result of doing so."
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The thread you linked Lune was before Inner Sea Gods came out. The Additional Resources for Inner Sea Gods says you can worship, not only venerate, but worship a dead Deity. As was pointed on later on on that thread though, Aroden is also legal through the worship of the Ascended Pantheon.
The Great Old Ones are not legal. Not "not legal for worship" but flat out, not legal.
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Inner sea gods predates the season 8 worship/venerate distinction.
Ah, okay then. I was unaware of that.
The Great Old Ones are not legal. Not "not legal for worship" but flat out, not legal.Not legal to what? Mention in game?
You can mention them, sure. You just can't worship/venerate them in the same way you could Aroden.
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You can mention them, sure. You just can't worship/venerate them in the same way you could Aroden.
Not legal to what? Mention in game?
You cannot slash worship and venerate because they are two different things.
What stops a character from venerating cuthulu, raazmir, Mengakare, The peacock spirit, Curchunas, or Acavna ?
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You can mention them, sure. You just can't worship/venerate them in the same way you could Aroden.
Not legal to what? Mention in game?
You cannot slash worship and venerate because they are two different things.
What stops a character from venerating cuthulu, raazmir, Mengakare, The peacock spirit, Curchunas, or Acavna ?
Cthulhu = Illegal
Razmir = Not a Deity, but just as legal as any other Philosophy
Mengakare =Not a Deity, possbly legal? Hasn't been brought up.
The Peacock Spirit = Dead (Pretty sure it's dead), Legal
Curchunas = Dead, Legal
Acavna = Dead, Legal
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Cthulhu = Illegal
Circular. you're saying cthulu is illegal to venerate because he illegal.
What in the definition of venerate requires PFS legality?Razmir = Not a Deity, but just as legal as any other Philosophy
Mengakare =Not a Deity, possbly legal? Hasn't been brought up.
Right. Mengekare is not a deity. But he does exist.
A chararcter could have a real mancrush on for mengkare. Have statues of him all over his house, read every word he ever wrote, travel with a small library of his teachings, (tax code 647-89 banning the importation of sheep from Osirion during the Scrapie outbreak of ar 4558 is a real page turner), have a necklace made with "In Mengkare we trust" , repeatedly fill out applications to join hermea, and pray to him every day. Nothing stops a character from doing that, in character
That's veneration.
In order for it to be worship, Mengkare has to answer back. (and not with form letter He-003, notice of receipt of application to join the grand experiment)
Curchunas = Dead, Legal
Acavna = Dead, Legal
In what way are they legal but cuthulu and mengkare aren't?
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The Additional Resources for Inner Sea Gods says you can worship (and as you pointed out, now means venerate) Dead Deities (Acavna and Curchunas).
There is not a rule to my knowledge saying you cannot venerate a Cult of Personality (Razmir and Megeakare).
There is a rule explicitly stating that the Great Old Ones are Illegal, with no other rule stating "but it's okay to venerate them".
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Ah, okay then. I was unaware of that.
That is literally what I had just finished saying when I said:
Your reference to Inner Sea Gods is basically saying that without using the term venerate which wasn't coined until AFTER that book came out.
I think BNW is covering the rest fairly well. I think what you need to show is what makes Cthulhu (Curchunas, Acavna or Mengekare) illegal to venerate. You can't just say they are illegal because they are illegal.
If you think that "Player characters are able to venerate any Golarion- specific deity, pantheon, or philosophy they wish without alignment concern." only means that you can venerate without alignment concerns then what is the difference in the list of things you are allowed to worship vs. things you are allowed to venerate? In your opinion do you believe this statement to mean that the two lists are the same?
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There is a rule explicitly stating that the Great Old Ones are Illegal
Can you quote it, word for word? Because as I keep trying to tell you this statement is pretty meaningless as you're stating it.
with no other rule stating "but it's okay to venerate them".
there's no rule saying that veneration requires legality. That's kind of the point of veneration.
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There is a rule explicitly stating that the Great Old Ones are Illegal, with no other rule stating "but it's okay to venerate them".
But there is. In fact, it says that you can venerate '...any Golarion- specific deity, pantheon, or philosophy they wish without alignment concern.'"
And again, I would point out that there is a rule preventing one from worshipping Cthulhu. There is no such rule regarding veneration.
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"You can't just say they are illegal because they are illegal."
Uh, yeah I can. Where is it written that you can venerate illegal deities? And I don't think Curchunas or Mengakare are illegal to venerate.
"If you think that "Player characters are able to venerate any Golarion- specific deity, pantheon, or philosophy they wish without alignment concern." only means that you can venerate without alignment concerns then what is the difference in the list of things you are allowed to worship vs. things you are allowed to venerate? In your opinion do you believe this statement to mean that the two lists are the same?"
Venerate lets you revere/worship but get no benefits/whatever without alignment concern. Worship has to be legal and follow alignment concerns.
You can worship and venerate Desna. You can venerate but not worship Aroden and Razmir.
"Can you quote it, word for word? Because as I keep trying to tell you this statement is pretty meaningless as you're stating it."
; Gods: all of the gods listed in the appendix are legal choices except daemon harbingers, great old ones, infernal dukes, malebranche, nascent demon lords, orc deities, outer gods, qlippoth lords, and whore queens.
They've stated that those are not legal options. When they split worship/venerate afterwards they should have also made a statement about whether you can venerate an otherwise illegal deity.
"there's no rule saying that veneration requires legality. That's kind of the point of veneration."
And I disagree.
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There is a rule explicitly stating that the Great Old Ones are Illegal, with no other rule stating "but it's okay to venerate them".But there is. In fact, it says that you can venerate '...any Golarion- specific deity, pantheon, or philosophy they wish without alignment concern.'"
And again, I would point out that there is a rule preventing one from worshipping Cthulhu. There is no such rule regarding veneration.
That says absolutely nothing about veneration.
It is only in regards to Alignment concerns, as it says. It does not say you can venerate illegal deities.
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I don't think this is really in question, is it? The definition of "venerate" in Appendix 7 of the Pathfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Guide says that "[p]layer characters are able to venerate any Golarion-specific deity, pantheon, or philosophy they wish without
alignment concern" (p.40).
Setting aside a level of pedantry that would be impossible even for the likes of me (that language about "Golarion-specific" being exclusionary because obviously Cthulhu doesn't meet the letter of that law), then next we turn to the list of deities in the appendix of Inner Sea Gods, where, yes, we find the Tentacled One and some of his pals listed at pp. 324-325.
Finally, we check the latest Additional Resources document entry for Inner Sea Gods which, yes, excludes the Great Old Ones and various other categories of supernatural baddies as "legal choices" but then goes on in the following sentence to use the word "worship" in such a way that the clear intent of the previous sentence is to exclude them from worship, not veneration.
Frankly, the concern I have with all this isn't its technical legality, but what I see as the possibility for what the Guide calls "dysfunctional or uncooperative play" in the Community Standards material. Where we read this, which seems germane: "When participating in public Pathfinder Society events, be mindful of any controversial or edgy concepts in your character and consider limiting them to bylines or dice rolls."
Be mindful. I'd add "be considerate" but maybe that's just me.
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I don't think this is really in question, is it? The definition of "venerate" in Appendix 7 of the Pathfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Guide says that "[p]layer characters are able to venerate any Golarion-specific deity, pantheon, or philosophy they wish without
alignment concern" (p.40).Setting aside a level of pedantry that would be impossible even for the likes of me (that language about "Golarion-specific" being exclusionary because obviously Cthulhu doesn't meet the letter of that law), then next we turn to the list of deities in the appendix of Inner Sea Gods, where, yes, we find the Tentacled One and some of his pals listed at pp. 324-325.
Finally, we check the latest Additional Resources document entry for Inner Sea Gods which, yes, excludes the Great Old Ones and various other categories of supernatural baddies as "legal choices" but then goes on in the following sentence to use the word "worship" in such a way that the clear intent of the previous sentence is to exclude them from worship, not veneration.
Frankly, the concern I have with all this isn't its technical legality, but what I see as the possibility for what the Guide calls "dysfunctional or uncooperative play" in the Community Standards material. Where we read this, which seems germane: "When participating in public Pathfinder Society events, be mindful of any controversial or edgy concepts in your character and consider limiting them to bylines or dice rolls."
Be mindful. I'd add "be considerate" but maybe that's just me.
The fact that it doesn't say "alignment or legality concerns" is what catches me.
Going off the last part, seeing as how this is seemingly just Your Table May Vary, Lune, if your home PFS group is okay running this then okay, but if you're playing with others call ahead, rather than showing up at the GM's table with "Look what I brought!"
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"You can't just say they are illegal because they are illegal."
Uh, yeah I can.
Then there is absolutely no reason to listen to you , at all. Your assertions are completely circular.
Where is it written that you can venerate illegal deities?
Where is it written that you can't?
The question is does something need to be the legal object of worship before it can be venerated? The answer is clearly no.
And I don't think Curchunas or Mengakare are illegal to venerate.
What is the difference between Curchonos and Cthulu?
They've stated that those are not legal options.
They did not say that.
That sentence does not say that they are illegal to mention, talk about, build a statue of, have a character dress up as them for halloween, or pray TO. That sentence means that their mechanics are not available for PCs.
"are legal choices" ... for what? The context makes it pretty clear that it means that other deities are legal to worship. there is no difference from being excluded from the additional resources (elder gods) and never being on the list in the first place (curchonos, mengkare)
When they split worship/venerate afterwards they should have also made a statement about whether you can venerate an otherwise illegal deity.
or they figured we could figure out what they were talking about the entire time with the new lingo.
And I disagree.
On what basis?
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Where is it written that you can venerate illegal deities?
What do you mean by "illegal deities"?! Do you mean "illegal to worship deities"? No one is referring to worshiping them. That is what the Inner Sea Gods quote that you keep referencing is talking about. It even says "worship".
Christopher Rowe: I didn't think it was really in question until I heard Rysky's opinion and others saying things like, "So, no. Do it in a homegame. Not PFS." (which is hard to tell if is sharing personal opinion or their perception of what is legal)
I hear you on the whole "be considerate" thing. But that is where people start making pre-judgements about someone being able to roleplay a concept without offending someone. And that is a pretty slippery slope to start banning people from tables for. "Oh, you are playing a Court Bard with Perform: Oratory that you plan on using for your Satire ability? So you are going to make fun of my NPCs? I don't think you can do that without offending me or the others at this table so I would ask you to find another table."
For this reason I would prefer to keep the, "It is legal but I dislike it due to X and it shouldn't be allowed." banter to some other thread. While I understand where you are coming from, that is not what is being asked here. I simply want to know if it is legal.
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*blink*
Okay then BNW, how is "It's illegal because it is in fact illegal" a baseless, senseless, and nonsensical claim?
"Where is it written that you can't?
The question is does something need to be the legal object of worship before it can be venerated? The answer is clearly no."
That;s my point, they did not state when Venerate was coined if you can or cannot venerate an illegal deity.
"What is the difference between Curchonos and Cthulhu?"
Curchonos is legal, Cthulhu is not.
"or they figured we could figure out what they were talking about the entire time with the lingo."
Obviously not.
"On what basis?"
The fact that they are illegal. They were illegal to use before Venerate was coined, they made no mention that formally illegal deities could now be venerated.
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Where is it written that you can venerate illegal deities?What do you mean by "illegal deities"?! Do you mean "illegal to worship deities"? No one is referring to worshiping them. That is what the Inner Sea Gods quote that you keep referencing is talking about. It even says "worship".
Campign Leadership declared them illegal for worship. They have not declared them legal for veneration.
I hear you on the whole "be considerate" thing. But that is where people start making pre-judgements about someone being able to roleplay a concept without offending someone. And that is a pretty slippery slope to start banning people from tables for. "Oh, you are playing a Court Bard with Perform: Oratory that you plan on using for your Satire ability? So you are going to make fun of my NPCs? I don't think you can do that without offending me or the others at this table so I would ask you to find another table."
Completely disingenuous to any of the current conversation. The Slippery Sloe FALLACY is a fallacy for a reason.
For this reason I would prefer to keep the, "It is legal but I dislike it due to X and it shouldn't be allowed." banter to some other thread. While I understand where you are coming from, that is not what is being asked here. I simply want to know if it is legal.
It is my opinion that it is illegal to venerate an illegal deity.
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I'm guessing it's not legal.
It seems like your distinction between "worshipping" and "veneration" is unnecessarily legalistic and disingenuous.
It seems you have a contrary agenda and you don't really care about "character concept" so much as finding a loophole.
I think that's what is annoying people.
Merry Christmas!
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*blink*
Okay then BNW, how is "It's illegal because it is in fact illegal" a baseless, senseless, and nonsensical claim?
Circularity.
Equivocation (between veneration and worship)Inconsistency (between Mengkare and Cuthulu)
That;s my point, they did not state when Venerate was coined if you can or cannot venerate an illegal deity.
Please stop using your term "illegal deity" which is not in the additional resources, campaign guide, or in use by anyone but you. It is seriously guiding your thinking here. You are equivocating between "not allowed by additional resources" and illegal, which aren't the same thing.
Example:
Character: "I have a girlfriend in irisen." Not covered by additional resources. No mechanical effects. Completely legal
Character: "I have a girlfriend in irisen. She hands out free potions" Not covered by additional resources, completely illegal
Curchonos is legal, Cthulhu is not.
What source allows Curchonos?
The fact that they are illegal.
This is your conclusion you cannot use it as your premise.
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It seems you have a contrary agenda and you don't really care about "character concept" so much as finding a loophole.
!
... Damn. What the hell? How on earth do you get that?
The difference between venerate and worship isn't something they made up. It's in the guide, with those specific terms. The idea has been around for a while too.
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Really? You are sure that I don't care about character concept? Did you do any kind of research before you decided on this baseless claim or are you just trying to accuse someone of being a bad person?
Maybe you should do a little research. I do have a character concept and honestly could care less how valid you think it is. But once again, not discussing concept here, please. Discussing only whether it is a legal choice or not. Thanks.
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I'm going to write on my character sheet that my character is an atheist (legal and true; he worships no legal deity).
In game, my character will act as if he venerates Cthulhu and, if asked, he may say that he worships Cthulhu (he's delusional and has convinced himself that this is true).
Am I playing my character wrong? Am I violating any PFS legality?