Inquisitor Help: Too many options, not enough obvious winners

[Malkin the Magician]

I will leave this here

ChaosTicket wrote:

Ironically my threads are formulaic about people not showing their formulas. In other words few people are showing actual work to support their opinions. I have check all these suggestions to confirm any results.

[ChaosTicket]

WOOH you quoted something that isnt relevant the current part of the discussion.

Way to drop a quote bomb. Later youll load up a meme mortar.

But seriously what is you opinion on exclusive abilities? Pounce is a very important ability for melee character but actually getting it requires a very specific build.

Barbarian sticks to beast totem. Avenger Vigilante has a glass hammer version in Mad Rush. Unchained Monk has Flying Kick which has similar intent.

[PhoenixSlayer]

The quote actually is relevant CT. Because the cleric build suggested gives the Plains domain. Which gives you Pounce. It's a limited number of times a day, but it's Pounce. If you had reviewed the build like you say you do in said quote, you may have said something along the lines of "it's Pounce, but I don't like that it's limited, I want more" instead of just brushing the guy off.

[Pounce]

ChaosTicket wrote:

Pounce wrote:

ChaosTicket wrote:

Actually there's something I can focus on. Why not take a Cleric that masters using Advanced Firearms or has Pounce with dual tomahawks? What would those take?

Eh.

Worship Pirias for the throwing axe proficiency.
Ask your GM if you can get the Plains domain (he does have the Plant domain, so) + Anger Inquisition to beef up your attacks when needed.

As a dual talent human on a 20 point buy, you can go 15+2/14+2/14/10/13/10 if you don't like dumping, sticking to buff spells + summoning as a cleric. You'll still be able to cast 9th level spells with a headband, so, no big loss if you don't care about spell DCs.

Might do as a start?

You made me laugh. You completely missed the key detail for a melee build AND Its your name "Pounce".

I'm glad you at least got something out of this thread!

[ChaosTicket]

You could make private messaged that if you were going to troll.

Ill just state simply that if you can use an illegal domain for a Cleric, why not do something similar for something else? Its rule=breaking one way or the other so its really just a question of why not skip the pretense and just have Pounce?

Why not allow a Monk to learn Barbarian Totems? Or do away with alignments entirely to make a classic Succubus Paladin?

[ChaosTicket]

Im glad this was moved to Homebrew and Suggestions. Whoever did that thank you.

I suggest that there be better rules for Multiple Classes on characters which include improvements to the Prestige Class system.

Related Homebrew its not possible to do anything not approved through a limited field for character classes. Additionally I play mostly in Pathfinder Society campaign so wow do I lose out on so many things.

There are too many checks for nearly everything. I want Point Blank Master so is would have to use a Homebrew rule to allow the requirements to be waived. Other feats often have that treatment such Point Blank Shot, Weapon Focus, and Spell Focus being designed basically to waste your finite feat slots. If they were better then it wouldnt be a waste.

How about Weapon Focus apply to every weapon? The name easily fits and its a feat to focus on weapons in general, not ultra specifically something like Longswords but ignoring all other swords or bladed weapons.

[My Self]

Doing away with prerequisite feats is fine with me.

Weapon Focus doesn't apply to all weapons because +1 to hit with weapons is +1 to hit for 99% (probably more) of Pathfinder character builds. And +1 to hit with everything makes it a very powerful feat, since it is applicable and useful to practically every build that uses weapons (and unarmed strikes). Granted, it's not absolutely necessary, but you'd be a fool to not take it if you have a spare feat. Maybe it it just applied to single weapon group, such as light blades, heavy blades, spears, close weapons, etc. it would be reasonable. But +1 to hit with everything is just a general cheap combat bonus, not a weapon focus. It would be better that you do away with the Weapon Focus prerequisite (and feat) entirely, or only get rid of all Weapon Focus prerequisites, and restrict the feat to classes that count their levels as Fighter for feats (Fighter, Brawler, Swashbuckler, higher-level Magus, Warpriest, etc.).

Spell Focus is a slightly different case - It is most often for classes that don't need most combat feats. The Wizard benefits most from it, since the Wizard is specialized into a certain school of magic. The Wizard basically doesn't need any other feats to compensate. I'd argue that it's OK to leave Spell Focus as a prerequisite, since classes with it are probably going to take the whole chain anyways, and classes without it can live without it. Spell Focus is the breadwinner in its feat chain.

[ChaosTicket]

At best that is an argument over the plurality of a word. Okay change the words to add a "(s)"

Suggestions for it are either A Remove waste feats as a requirement. B Improve the waste feats to be more powerful and/or more preferably C make them more generalized boosts. Point Blank shot for example could give an even greater bonus for being at close range.

Its understandable to have Improved and Greater versions of feats as part of a feat change but others can be random.

The Combat Expertise-Dodge-Mobility-Spring Attack-Whirlwind Attack is an odd tree. Only 3 of them have anything to do with movement. Whirlwind attack is far closer to Cleave than anything else.

[My Self]

Things like Point Blank Shot don't need to be more powerful. It's like getting a free Fighter Weapon Training, if you're fight in close combat. I'd rather just drop Point Blank shot entirely, and replace all the things it is a prerequisite for with Precise Shot. It's the sort of feat I was talking about when I wrote about Weapon Focus last post. It's a generically good feat that lots of characters want to have. I'm not particularly fond of flat numeric bonus feats overall, especially the +1/+2-ish ones that appear in chains. Those sorts should be dropped, merged, or baked into the classes they are supposed to be part of.

Combat Expertise-Dodge-Mobility-Spring Attack-Whirlwind Attack is somewhat mystifying, I agree. You could work out a different feat tree for Whirlwind Attack.

Combat Expertise is a whole other bag of worms, and should basically just be dropped or made a standard option. There's a certain houserule feat system that does away with Combat Expertise, among other feats.

[ChaosTicket]

If you havent checked Im going in a different direction to make things less class specific.

Im a bit confused about the comment about Fighter Weapon Training.

I dont think the Fighter should have anything unique when its class is the undecided basis of the Barbarian/Paladin/Monk, etc. In older D&D editions it was exactly that. I know the Barbarian started out as a Fighter Variant.

Its not really explained at all why it should have anything unique either. If you changed the Fighter Trainings and even better the Advanced versions into Feats that would be an interesting step.

After all every class is a "Fighter" unless you roleplay a non-combat character. Its even more generic than "Adventurer".

[My Self]

My comment about Weapon Training is that Point Blank Shot gives a very general +1 bonus to hit and damage for ranged weapons, similar to Weapon Training.

So what you want is a feat-based character creation system, no? So your character is enabled to do whatever cool thing they want if they can qualify for and take the feat.

Let me try to paraphrase your points: (including selected earlier points which seem relevant)
-Characters should be built out of primarily feats, not primarily class levels/features
-Characters should have more feats, maybe one every level
-Characters should be the best in at least one thing, but be effective at everything else
-Most classes should be able to pounce
-Caster classes should be able to cast a larger variety of spells
-Most abilities should be generally accessible to all classes
-Fighters should not have unique class features
-Fighter Weapon Training should be accessible via feats
-Whirlwind Attack should be on the end of the Cleave chain
-Weapon Focus should apply to all weapons (of a single group?)
-Weapon Focus, Combat Expertise, Spell Focus, and other common prerequisite feats should be removed as prerequisites

To sum up what I think you want:
You want a system that involves you building and customizing your character level-by-level. Level-by-level customization should be powerful, should be unconstrained by class or prerequisites, should have no useless options, and should make sense. Your character should not be constrained in their abilities by their class - their class only enhances their natural abilities and feats. Every character should be able to contribute meaningfully to the game and permanently shore up all their weaknesses, no matter the situation or how they choose to build or play.

Is this correct?

[ChaosTicket]

That is a pretty good summary which I an confident will be taken out of context to be used in a negative way.

The key is options. Whether a player wants to add handicaps for benefits or have no handicaps or just a well rounded build should be possible. Feats should contribute more significantly. CLass features could be reformed so make them them an option rather than fixed. Classes should be more like examples and used as already constructed character paths.

For the existing system Penalties for multiclassing should be altered and perhaps have additional benefits beyond the raw levels.

Prestige classes by themselves show a wasted potential of class combinations. One example in Rage Prophet as a Barbarian+Divine Caster.

[My Self]

You were right in an earlier post that Pathfinder isn't the right system to do this in. You'll need very extensive systemic changes to be able to have this.

Pathfinder has fairly minimal multiclassing penalties - you lose out on your FCB, which basically means you downgrade your skill points in other classes from x+1 to x skills/level or your HD one step down (d12->d10->d8->d6). It's a far cry from 3.5e experience penalties. Still, I suppose you could go full 5e, and have a unified casting ability thing ( caster level = [level in caster classes + 1/2 level in 1/2 caster classes] ). I suppose using fractional Base Attack Bonus and fractional saves (see Pathfinder Unchained) would also be good.

If you wanted to start somewhere in the Pathfinder system, you'd probably simply want to create some sort of customizable class that functions as such. Perhaps halfway between the playtest Vigilante and the current Fighter, with a dash of Ranger Combat Style to get you rolling.

Under your system, you'd probably need to strip down individual class power and/or throttle feat acquisition rate to maintain balance. The majority of feats are combat feats, and most combat feats contribute towards your ability to hit someone harder. Arcane fullcasters generally don't worry about hitting people hard, when they can just cast spells. With more feats, Arcane fullcasters will be unfairly advantaged over martial classes, since they only need to spend a minimum number of feats to be highly effective, while martial classes need to spend many more just to stay competitive. Perhaps if you tied feat acquisition rate to BAB, martial classes would stay more competitive? Just a thought. You'd have to significantly adjust class power as well, or perhaps just throw out Pathfinder classes and make skeleton classes, such as a "Fighter" class that has full BAB, a strong Fortitude save, and proficiency with everything, then offer "Rage" or "Smite Evil" as a feat.

[ChaosTicket]

Well one issue that ive previously talked about in another is whether feat chains are necessary or if they should naturally improve at a certain point. This means fewer feats required to have the same effect and more available feat slots.

For example the Two-weapon Fighting chain granting an additional off-hand strike each time your BAB grants you an additional primary hand attack.

Some feats are just there to remove penalties. Precise Shot and Two-Weapon FIghting are not to make their fighting styles better, but more even with a "standard" two-handed or one-handed and

So feats can be reformed.
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Talking about spellcasters is a can of worms and best left to another thread. Suffice it to say they scale up better than physical classes and have powers non-spellcasters powers do not. Physical classes arent just matched up brute vs brute, but have other problems. How does your sword skill stop you from falling to you death?

The argument has always been an absurd one that physical powers should beat supernatural powers no matter the situation. Sword beats laser basically.

Fusing physical and magic is already within the game. Its an effective combination to be able to combine enhancement spells to your allies or yourself.