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I like the idea of a higher level Inquisitor, compensating raw stats with multiple stacking buffing abilities to make itself better than a Fighter while still having utility with plenty of skills.
#1 Lack of weapon proficiencies is major problem. Heavy mace, Morningstar, or Longspear are limited. Martial proficiencies are highly desirable and Inquisitor doesnt have them. For martial classes Greatsword is basic power weapon with plenty of damage. Lucerne Hammer is very good Reach weapon with multiple damage types. Nodachi also has multiple damage types and high critical threat chance.
#2 Lack of feats for anything except a melee build. Archery build is iconic and offensively it works well in combination with all the buffs to make a Ranged DPS character. Actually getting all the ones required takes quite a long time and getting others like Improved Initiative, Iron Will, and others makes it quite feat starved.
#3 Choice of race. Inquisitor is an MAD class. Strength/Dex are important for offense, Wisdom necessary for spells. Charisma is the only dump stat though some suggest dumping Intelligence. Personally I favor a Half-orc for Darkvision, Sacred Tattoos(in combination with Fate's Favored trait), Human Favored Class Bonuses(usually the best) and of course the custom stat choice.
#4 Spells. Being a reduced tier 6 divine spell user results in many limited spells. There are plenty of useful buffing spells, but minimal offensive spells. Tier 1 spell slots seem reserved for Divine Favor.
#5 Alignment and Deities. Deity Alignment seems inverse to how effective the bonuses are. There are plenty of domain powers but most are negligible bonuses that dont stack and/or you cannot benefit from because of one-round durations.
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The things I would want in this class are
#1 all martial weapon proficiencies.
#2 spells that are useful besides buffs
#3 Domain powers that are actually useful
#4 Fighting Style without feat starving
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Not sure what you are complaining about. Inquisitor is probably the most powerful 6th level caster with an abundance of strong archetypes and a well rounded set of abilities. The only real criticism I have for the class from a design perspective is that Bane is so good it severely limits the viable fighting style options.
#1 You get one martial or Exotic proficiency from your deitiy. Add others from race and or traits and live with it.
#2 Archery Inquisitors are among the best. They take a bit longer to get going and you will have to worship Erastil for Longbow prof and Deadeye Bowman trait. But bane means you will be dropping most level appropriate foes within 1 round. Also an Inquisitor does not need Iron Will, especially not if he is either...
#3 Half Orc or Dwarf. They are hands down the most powerful races for inquisitor.
#4 The spell list offers awesome versatility and many consider it among the best of the 6th level classes. I'd rate it similar to the bard's. You have access to both Divine favor and heroism. The two best personal buffs in the game. You have viable AoE options with Blistering Invective access to the most important healing spells (lesser restoration) and sweet utility like Invisibility.
#5 Growth Domain, Anger Inquisition or Redemption Inquisition all provide you with far more than negligible combat bonuses. Other Inquisitions single handedly let you disregard Charisma for skill checks or grant you a familiar.
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Inquisitor is a strong and flexible class, but it does have a lot of moving parts (judgement, bane, spells, domain powers...)
All of your questions seem to be about mechanical concerns. But what deity or concept appeals to you? A furtive, deceptive halfling inquisitor of Norgorber? A martial half-orc greatsword-wielding Inquisitor of Gorum? Making a decision about the personality and faith of the character can help to address the mechanical choices.
I don't think you need to worry very much about Improved Initiative and Iron Will. You have good Will saves and should have decent Wisdom. You get to add WIS as well as DEX to Initiative already.
An inquisitor probably doesn't need to have proficiency with all martial weapons, since you're likely to want to use your god's favoured weapon. But you can dip one level in Fighter or Barbarian easily enough. You won't have as many combat feats as a fighter or a brawler of course. If you want a more martial character with divine flavour and stacking buffs I suggest Warpriest might fit you better than Inquisitor.
I've seen a vary scary Growth Domain using Inquistor using a longspear and invisibility to good effect. I'm itching to try a sanctified slayer - green faith marshal inquisitor with a dire flail and a crocodile familiar (crocodile domain).
I have tried in heхenhammer Inquisitor would take Conversion inquisition .
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Having played an archer Inquisitor in ROTRL I at no time felt feat starved. I didn't even play a Sanctified Slayer, which really has no troubles performing archery. Though, I will admit you don't have room for feats like Improved Initiative or Iron Will, but you also don't really need them with things like Shake It Off or Lastwall Phalanx.
You are right that melee weapon proficiencies are a little weak, they should have given something (even if it was just longsword) so that the class wasn't completely dependent on deity for weapon choice if they didn't want to be an archer.
Inquisitors aren't really supposed to take domains, they're meant to take Inquisitions. And some Inquisitions are incredibly good. Domain powers vary in usefulness and are pretty much weak for everyone, with the exception that it can add good spells to a cleric build (but Inquisitors don't get those spells).
As far as spells...this is an issue with all divine casters. Divine casters are primarily buffing casters and condition removal casters. They are not meant to be offensive casters. In fact, Inquisitors actually probably have the best offensive spell list (when only looking at spells 6th level and below) for all divine spell casters.
So in summation...
I don't know what you're talking about. Inquisitors are literally one of the strongest classes in the game and about the only thing I can agree with you on is that they should be offered one decent martial weapon choice so they don't have to solely rely on their deity to provide it.
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The things I would want in this class are
#1 all martial weapon proficiencies.
#2 spells that are useful besides buffs
#3 Domain powers that are actually useful
#4 Fighting Style without feat starving
what your asking for is not supported in PFS system.
You're basically asking for a full martial & full caster class PLUS more goodies. AkA, something stronger than anything else published. You seem to be complaining just because you don't have the top best item in every category.Like Alex said, you get fine weapons from diety or race and simple aren't bad. I've had plenty of characters use a longspear, difference from it to lucern is like 2 damage, and I just don't see that as crippling I'm doing so much more with bane and with judgement or judement replacement to care about weapon damage.
Improved init isn't needed since you already get wis to init, which is basically the amount of improved init, and you probably don't need iron will being a good will saving class with a wis focus. The only feats "required" are your combat style feats. And archery takes long because it's so good. PBS 1, precise 3, rapid 5 when you get bane and it's really worth it, 7 is deadly aim if you want I'm not sure it's worth using since you have many damage boosters already, 9 multi-shot because this is when you qualify. Humans speed up by 1 step. So I don't really see how you consider it a feat starved class. It's not like there are feats it's needing to take.
It's not really any more mad than a cleric or druid or bard or occultist or .... And heck, if you built it using a barb or fighter stat array with only a 12 wisdom you'll be able to do everything still.
Have you seen the divine list? They aren't offensive in nature. The closest are like command, blindness or their weak fire spell. Plus, buffing in combat is usually only 1 round if that so you're free to have plenty of non-combat spells known.
yes, all domains and inquisitions are not created equal. but it's not the main focus of your class, merely an additional feature, so if it's not the greatest you just focus on your other great stuff and the good weapon you got.
You really need to realize the game for what it is. YOU'RE NEVER GOING TO FIND A CHARACTER THAT HAS IT ALL OR CAN DO IT ALL. All your posts sound the same, you complaining that a class doesn't have everything possible that you'd like to have.
This started off badly. Its about advice on getting around two problems with the class.
Well the #1 problem I have is lack of weapon options. Deities grant ONE weapon at most from a large list and you cannot choose what you want. Martial weapons can be all-round better than simple ones with increased damage, critical chance, multiple damage types, and special abilities. Personally I like weapons with versatility like the Monk's Spade, Nodachi, and Lucerne hammer. Any Gods grant that?
#2 feats. For anything but a sword+Shield or Two-handed style require feats to remove the drawbacks and even then not fully. I think only by multiclassing can you get the Point Blank Master feat integral to an Archery build.
#3 Domain/Deities. Only 2 good domains I can think of a Travel and Animal(with Boon Companion). The rest seem are mediocre.
God alignment is a requirement for some useful domains but Gozreh and Nethys are the only easy gods.
Best option I have right now is to multiclass into something with Martial weapons and have Gozreh as my Deity.
Do you have any useful advice?
If you don't mind losing Judgments, Sanctified Slayer can get you a Ranger Fighting Style (delayed, but still). That was mentioned briefly, but worth bringing up for Archery or TWF builds. Also, that ups your spell save DC to the point where non-buffs might be viable.
Judgments are fun though, so it is a tough trade.
1)Yes, everyone prefers weapons that are better. But simple weapons get the job done fine if you don't get something better from race or your god. a longspear is only 2 damage less than Lucerne hammer. 2 damage is nice if you can get it but not really something to complain about when you're able to have swift action BANE adding 2 accuracy and 2 + 2d6 damage. Even judgement or judgement replacers give you damage and your buff spells give damage. A little loss damage for them isn't a problem.
lv1 fighter with Lucerne hammer and weapon focus is +x with 1d12+Y
lv1 inquisitor with longspear and divine favor is +x with 1d8+y+2
The inquisitor is just as accurate for the same damage.
When a fighter gets weapon training and you get bane your damage is FAR ahead of his, so why worry about 2 damage from weapon?
2) there's a trait that gives you the majority of benefit of improved precise, or go sanctified slayer to get it. but as others have said, no one else is seeing the class be feat starved, for archer or TWF, so do a better job explaining why it is.
3) Notice how everyone is saying domains ARE a mediocre ability. It's because they are. Domain/inquisition is an icing to the class, not necessarily a core feature of the class.
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#3 Domain/Deities. Only 2 good domains I can think of a Travel and Animal(with Boon Companion). The rest seem are mediocre.
You keep saying domains, are you ignoring Inquisitions? There are several that have some interesting abilities.
Anger - 1/day extra attack; barbarian rage (lvl - 3)
Conversion - just about any deity, Wis instead of Cha for Bluff, Intimidate, Diplomacy; 1/day dominate person
Persistence - free Step Up feat; 10ft speed increase 3+Wis/ day; self-only lay-on-hands + mercy
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Personally I like weapons with versatility like the Monk's Spade, Nodachi, and Lucerne hammer. Any Gods grant that?
as far as i know, there are no gods that have those as favored weapons. however, there is a feat called weapon versatility which will let you change the damage type of your weapon as a swift action. it has weapon focus as a prereq but if youre going with a melee inquisitor you dont need a lot of feats anyway and that +1 bonus will help offset the penalty from power attack.
a couple other points too. yeah, the weapon proficiency is a drag on the inquisitor but you mentioned that you were leaning toward half-orc for your race which is a great idea cause a) they get have a bunch of racial bonuses that are almost tailor made for inquisitors and b) they get free proficiency with falchions.
also, say you dont go with weapon versatility. dont discredit the simple weapons just because theyre not the best. sure a morning star isnt going to win a dps race, but that one backup weapon will cover the other 2 types of damage that a falchion wont and when you stack judgement and bane on it youre still swinging for the bleachers by any standard that isnt "optimized two handed fighter."
also, look at the inquisition list as well as the domains. conversion and heresy replace cha with wis if thats a problem and the persistence inquisition stacks fantastically with a melee half orc inquisitor.
at the end of the day, the point of an inquisitor isnt to be the best at anything under ideal circumstances. thats supermans job and inquisitors arent superman. the point of an inquisitor is to be better than everyone else when s**t goes mega sideways. thats batmans job. inquisitors are batman.
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Going down your revised list of issues with the class:
#1 - Yup. That's a problem. I think most anyone who plays an Inquisitor will agree with you on this one to some extent, but that doesn't make the class useless. If your build really depends on having a single, multi-damage type weapon with reach and an adjustable toothpick holder, you're going to have to invest in it. So you lose a feat to get proficiency with the weapon of your choice. If it's going to make the experience more fun for you because you have the weapon you really want, then it should be worth not being 100% optimized.
#2 - Maybe look at feats as less of "removing drawbacks" and more as empowering your character? True, for archery builds, that -4 to hit without precise shot is pretty debilitating at early levels, but if you play human you can easily get there by level 3 no matter what deity you choose (Lvl 1 martial prof (bow of choice) and PBS as bonus, Lvl 3 Precise Shot, gravy). As for Point Blank Master, if you're going for an archery build why are you up in people's faces where you can provoke? Also, that limitation isn't only on Inquisitors, but on any class that doesn't get either fighter levels or ranger combat styles, so we can't pin it only on this one class.
#3 - If you're out to optimize, maybe those domains aren't a good choice. If you're out to try something interesting, even if it's sub-optimal, the world is your oyster. Plus, like Claxon said, the Inquisitions offer an interesting alternative to Domains. See if those are more up your alley.
Hope this perspective from a relatively new player is helpful.
If what you want is a deity with a favored weapon which does multiple damage types, there's a couple of empyreal lords which favor the halberd (P or S). Keltheald and Olheon, the former has the Travel domain which you wanted too.
Also inquistors have some swift action spells called litanies. At least one of them removes the targets ability to take attacks of opportunity - which should let you shoot enemies in the face at point-blank if for some reason you really want to,
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This started off badly. Its about advice on getting around two problems with the class.
well it seems a lot like you're complaining that the class isn't completely perfect without drawbacks, which people don't tend to be sympathetic towards.
Well the #1 problem I have is lack of weapon options. Deities grant ONE weapon at most from a large list and you cannot choose what you want. Martial weapons can be all-round better than simple ones with increased damage, critical chance, multiple damage types, and special abilities. Personally I like weapons with versatility like the Monk's Spade, Nodachi, and Lucerne hammer. Any Gods grant that?
Do you want to be an archer or a melee character? because as you've rightly identified Inquisitors don't have a mountain of feats, they're meant to specialize, if you want to switch hit play a ranger or a fighter.
If you want melee I would recommend for sword and board, there is Iomadea with a long sword or Torag with a warhammer, if you want to be a dex fighter, Sarenrea for Scimitar. For Reach fighting Glaive from Shelyn, not sure for two handed but I'm sure there is one.OR you could do the excessively simple and easy thing and take the heirloom weapon trait.
#2 feats. For anything but a sword+Shield or Two-handed style require feats to remove the drawbacks and even then not fully. I think only by multiclassing can you get the Point Blank Master feat integral to an Archery build.
Point Blank master, never has been and never will be integral to archery builds, especially not to a class that can take bowstaff at level one.
What is essential is moving around so people don't get up in your face and kill you, you're an archer, stay at range.
#3 Domain/Deities. Only 2 good domains I can think of a Travel and Animal(with Boon Companion). The rest seem are mediocre.God alignment is a requirement for some useful domains but Gozreh and Nethys are the only easy gods.
Take inquisitions, you're an inquisitor the clue is in the name.
Best option I have right now is to multiclass into something with Martial weapons and have Gozreh as my Deity.Do you have any useful advice?
Play an archer or two handed or dual wielding inquisitor as so many people on these boards have done before you and see that they aren't lying to you and that it does work and that you're blowing the problem out of all proportion.
not sure for two handed but I'm sure there is one.
off the top of my head, gorum gets you a greatsword, lamashtu gets you a falchion, and ragthiel or feronia will get you a bastard sword.
If you listened to folks advice and started using online resources you might actually get something out of this thread. The Inquisitor really has it all, you just have to be clever about building and utilize the tools at your disposal to the fullest.
For example Undine Loyalty combined with Lastwall Phalanx turns that clunky teamwork feat into an impenetrable fortress of Goodness.
Also as I wasn't clear enough earlier here's improved precise shot as a trait.. Yeah I know Erastil is a boring Grognard... but were talking character optimization here.
An Inquisitor Archetype which gets all martial weapons is the Zealot Vigilante. It is all around weaker than the Inquisitor though.
And while Personally I wouldn't bother with MArtial or EXotic Weapon Proficiency if you plan on building a two handed Inquisitor there's worse options than being a Half Elf and getting the weapon you really want at level 1.
#1 Not sure why some folks here say you must be an elf or waste a feat to use a bow. Inquisitors are proficient with all kinds of bows and crossbows unless that was changed when I wasn't looking.
For melee: As was already said, Half-Orcs, Dwarves and Half-Elf get various very good melee weapons. Plus you get the favored weapon of your deity and simple weapons are more than capable of filling any remaining gaps.
#2 Feats: Two-Handed Weapon is a no brainer. As is Weapon + Shield style. TWF and Archery are more demanding, but have been used by rogues, bards and other "low-feat" classes for over a decade. And those classes have fewer/weaker class features to work with those styles. Inquisitors also get free teamwork feats and can use them more easily than anyone else.
Unless you play only from level 1 to level 2, Inquisitors are completely fine with any fighting style.
#3 MAD: Not really. Go for high strength or dex, leave the other one at 12/14, get 14+ Wis and Con and you're done. You get enough Skill points to mostly ignore Int (just don't dump it) and charisma can be dumped. You'll have like 1-2 less strength than a highly focused fighter but that difference in attack and damage is easily made up for with spells, Jugdment and Bane.
#4 Spells: Offensive spells are few and weak-ish, but really, the Inquisitor is meant to stick things with the pointy end. You have very good buffs (Heroism, Divine Favor) and utility (Bloodhound, Invisibility) and even some of the best healing spell, even if they come late-ish (Restoration, Heal).
#5 Domains: Travel, Liberation, Growth, Tactics, Rage, Feather, Heroism, Magic are all good for various reasons. Get a conductive weapon and you can add other great domains like Chaos/Protean, Madness, Darkness. And I'm not even touching Inquisitions here.
Inquisitors are (probably) the strongest 3/4 martial class with a good spell list, awesome utility (Detect Alignment at will, Detect Lies as immediate, 6 skill points, various skill bonuses like Monster Lore, Stern Gaze, Heroism and Track) and good saves.
I have no idea how anyone could come to the conclusion that this class needs anything else.
Okay looking at it, Sanctified Slayer is pretty much the closest I will get to what I want through official means. Bonus Ranger Combat Styles feats are useful but more relevant it also means getting Point Blank Master is possible.
Studied Target has a great more utility as it can help with some skill checks and isnt limited in times per day.
Animal Domain is iffy. I dont know if Animal COmpanions are useful at higher levels as they have reduced BAB, Hit Dice, and dont gain high quality and/or spell like abilities abilities. Level 7-12 is the high point I think.
Feather subdomain provides a nice bonus to Perception that scales.
Conversion Inquisition takes most of the charisma skills that get dumped and makes them Wisdom based. Very nice improvement to skill checks.
Overall what I want in the Theory of the Inquisitor being a Divine Warrior Solo Skillmaster to actually work in practice. Its just a matter of having either better weapon options and/or the feats to fully take Fighting STyles.
Didn't read through the whole thing, but Racial Weapon Proficiencies can help out plenty. Half-Elves can choose any weapon.
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You have at least 10 people with real life experience playing an inquisitor or GMing for one that says in practice they ARE a Divine Warrior and Skillmaster. You're the only one it seems that think in theory they are not.
You want an archer Inquisitor you worship Erastil, take Deadeye Bowman trait, you don't need an archetype at all, and choose the Chivalry Inquisition to get yourself a mount. Give you and your mount escape route and you no-longer are worried about provoking AoO for firing your bow, because your mount will just move you out of harms way. Point-Blank Master isn't necessary.
You have at least 10 people with real life experience playing an inquisitor or GMing for one that says in practice they ARE a Divine Warrior and Skillmaster. You're the only one it seems that think in theory they are not.Ive read many of OPs threads, they are getting quite formulaic, and this matches the pattern
Ironically my threads are formulaic about people not showing their formulas. In other words few people are showing actual work to support their opinions. I have check all these suggestions to confirm any results.
At some point above the difference between a Spear and a Lucerne Hammer was trivialized so here Ill show some work.
So a 16 strength Inquisitor has a +3 hit bonus and +3/4 damage bonus from strength towards one and two-handed weapons, respectively. Longspear has 4.5 average damage per hit. That is a combined 8.5 average damage at level 1.
A 18 strength BAB 20 class has a +5 hit bonus and a +4/6 damage bonus from strength towards one and two-handed weapons, respectively. Lucerne Hammer has has 6.5 average damage per hit. That is a combined 12.5 average damage at level 1.
So the result is is a 66% hit and 47% damage in favor of the Lucerne Hammer user. Results are different when adding or changing variables, for example Damage Reduction.
You have at least 10 people with real life experience playing an inquisitor or GMing for one that says in practice they ARE a Divine Warrior and Skillmaster. You're the only one it seems that think in theory they are not.Ive read many of OPs threads, they are getting quite formulaic, and this matches the patternIronically my threads are formulaic about people not showing their formulas. In other words few people are showing actual work to support their opinions. I have check all these suggestions to confirm any results.
At some point above the difference between a Spear and a Lucerne Hammer was trivialized so here Ill show some work.
So a 16 strength Inquisitor has a +3 hit bonus and +3/4 damage bonus from strength towards one and two-handed weapons, respectively. Longspear has 4.5 average damage per hit. That is a combined 8.5 average damage at level 1.
A 18 strength BAB 20 class has a +5 hit bonus and a +4/6 damage bonus from strength towards one and two-handed weapons, respectively. Lucerne Hammer has has 6.5 average damage per hit. That is a combined 12.5 average damage at level 1.
So the result is is a 66% hit and 47% damage in favor of the Lucerne Hammer user. Results are different when adding or changing variables, for example Damage Reduction.
Why are you comparing a Fighter to an Inquisitor?
Compare a theoretically Inquisitor with a lucern hammer vs one with a spear. And then do your math. You're changing more than one variable.
So a 16 strength Inquisitor has a +3 hit bonus and +3/4 damage bonus from strength towards one and two-handed weapons, respectively. Longspear has 4.5 average damage per hit. That is a combined 8.5 average damage at level 1.
A 18 strength BAB 20 class has a +5 hit bonus and a +4/6 damage bonus from strength towards one and two-handed weapons, respectively. Lucerne Hammer has has 6.5 average damage per hit. That is a combined 12.5 average damage at level 1.
So the result is is a 66% hit and 47% damage in favor of the Lucerne Hammer user. Results are different when adding or changing variables, for example Damage Reduction.
Here look, I can cheat with math too!
So a 20 strength Inquisitor has a +5 hit bonus and +5/7 damage bonus from strength towards one and two-handed weapons, respectively. Longspear has 4.5 average damage per hit. That is a combined 11.5 average damage at level 1.
A 8 strength Full BAB class has a +0 hit bonus and a +-1/1 damage bonus from strength towards one and two-handed weapons, respectively. Lucerne Hammer has has 6.5 average damage per hit. That is a combined 5.5 average damage at level 1.
so the result is an infinite increase hit and a 200% damage in favor of the longspear user. :P
Now lets do A REAL comparison (which has probably already been done by now by someone else)
a full bab has +1 to hit from BAB and hammer is +2 damage. THAT IS ALL THE FULL BAB MARTIAL WEAPON USER has over the inquisitor. Now, +4 to hit at 10.5 damage is a good start for a class (since most aren't full bab). But hey, use divine favor and fate's favored gives me +2 to attack and damage, now I'm more accurate than the hammer user and equal damage.
Fast forward to lv5 inquisitor to a fighter.
fighter has 5 bab, weapon focus, weapon specialization, and WT, a +1 weapon and 20 str
hammer is +13 for 17.5 damage on round 1 attack
inquisitor has 3 bab, +1 weapon and 20str. Oh and BANE of course :)
longspear is +11 for 21.5 damage on round 1 attack.
Using the fairly accurate conversion of 1 accuracy = 2 damage, we're tied with the fighter for damage a round. But the inquisitor can buff higher if needed or has the spare round.
So after showing that the inquisitor MATCHES THE FIGHTER, lets compare what was actually said by me.
Damage of fighter using longspear at lv5 is +13 for 15.5 compared to hammer. 2 damage, while indeed helpful, IS IN NO WAY CRIPPLING TO NOT HAVE. The difference of weapon really isn't worth worrying about if it's not easy to use a better weapon, the simple weapons work just fine.
EDITED: to add with
Note 1: people immediately ignored "Results are different when adding or changing variables".
Note 2: Dwarves make Dwarven exotic weapons into Martial proficiency, not just skip to gaining the proficiency. A dwarven Warhammer would be great as a 2d6 reach weapon though.
Note 3: 18 strength not 20 is legal using Point Buy character creation rules. Technically 20 is legal using 17 points and the +2 strength bonus some races have, but only in the context of sacrificing any other necessary statistics so is unrealistic.
Note 4: Cheat math? Please dont ignore the context.
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The greatest difficulty I find is that people use opinions on what words mean and taking things out of context. One fundamental question I can ask is how to have a 95% hit chance? Now how to do so with an Inquisitor?
Now will that be taken out of context or interpreted with such a narrow scope?
I think 3 people pointed out that with 1 buff round you are BETTER than the fighter at fighting. A fighter which can only fight. That with NO buff round, you're still competitive with the fighter at fighting. A fighter which can only fight.
The only buff you'd regularly use for personal buffing is divine favor into it's big brother, divine power.
Weapon of Awe isn't enough of a buff to be worth casting in a fight, sure if you can pre-buff it's helpful.
Heroism is great though, that one is easy to have on all the time you'll want it.
And if you feel that a "crutch" is what makes you equal or better than a full martial, AND still have GREAT skills AND spells, and that because it's a "crutch" to equal or surpass a full bab martial, that you're complaining THAT YOU'RE NOT GOOD ENOUGH AT COMBAT???
Plenty of people IN THIS VERY THREAD EVEN, are telling you that you become a great archer at lv5, and can be a good archer from lv3, depending on race.
UGG, it's so hard to work with you. You just seem to WHINE and COMPLAIN so much that the class isn't 110% better than all other classes at everything all the time with no effort. And ignore everyone answering and showing that your complaints are pretty much unfounded. Heck, you seem to say that if they aren't THE BEST at something then it's doesn't count. Like we've mathmatically shown that your DPR is very close to or surpassing A FIGHTER, and you blow it off and say that the inquisitor can't do combat????
For this to be productive FOR YOU you need to either be more clear about benchmarks and expectations of the class, OR actually process and comprehend what answers are being given to our current questions.
One fundamental question I can ask is how to have a 95% hit chance?
Now will that be taken out of context with such a narrow scope?
Easy, fight cr1 oozes when you're lv20
The answer to your REAL question (the one you ask in every single thread you make) is, get freaking realistic expectations of this game!
One fundamental question I can ask is how to have a 95% hit chance?
Now will that be taken out of context with such a narrow scope?
Easy, fight cr1 oozes when you're lv20
The answer to your REAL question (the one you ask in every single thread you make) is, get freaking realistic expectations of this game!
You either frustrate me, or make me laugh.
SO let me think...Okay an Ranged DPS Build with Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Improved Precise Shot, Exotic Weapon Proficiency(Firearms) and of course an Advanced Firearm most likely a Pepperbox Rifle.
Gunsmith, Rapid Reload, Snap Shot, and Point Blank Master to remove the handicaps.
A Sanctified Slayer with the Black Powder Inquisition could do that fairly well. It would take level 15 to fully acquire all of them, but until then it would still be a high accuracy build.
So I just made a Sniper Inquisitor.
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For a melee build Vanilla Inquisitor with Gorum as deity with Weapon Focus and Weapon Versatility is good but also leaves alot of feat slots open. Conversion Inquisition works very well.
Two-weapon requires more feats but also gains double benefits from buffing abilities. Im looking into possible ways to get Pounce.
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Note 1: people immediately ignored "Results are different when adding or changing variables".
Note on note 1: People did not ignore it they gave you an example, which you stated you wanted and that you "check all th[e] suggestions to confirm any results" on and eliminated the extra variables you put in. Like giving them different strength scores.
Note 2: Dwarves make Dwarven exotic weapons into Martial proficiency, not just skip to gaining the proficiency. A dwarven Warhammer would be great as a 2d6 reach weapon though.
Note on Note 2: " Dwarves are proficient with battleaxes, heavy picks, and warhammers" so dwarves do get some weapon proficiency. Both sides should be giving full context.
Note 3: 18 strength not 20 is legal using Point Buy character creation rules. Technically 20 is legal using 17 points and the +2 strength bonus some races have, but only in the context of sacrificing any other necessary statistics so is unrealistic.
Note on Note 3: The 20 Strength was only included in hyperbolic example used to illustrate why you should compare using the same stats. Because, it introduces too many variables otherwise. In the following example labelled "REAL example" the writer used and stats equal example.
Note 4: Cheat math? Please dont ignore the context.
Note on Note 4: Maybe you did not cheat but you gave worse combat stats to the class you are trying to prove is worse. That's not a fair argument.
The greatest difficulty I find is that people use opinions on what words mean and taking things out of context. One fundamental question I can ask is how to have a 95% hit chance? Now how to do so with an Inquisitor?
Now will that be taken out of context or interpreted with such a narrow scope?
If this is what you want I should take every ability to boost accuracy. Level 5 with an animal companion with outflank and a menacing amulet give +6. Add in Bane +2, fates favoured and divine favour +2. Spend a feat on weapon focus +1 next round add justice judgment +2.
Add it up. BAB 3 + Str 4 + Masterwork 1 + Flank 6 + Bane 2 + Luck 2 + WF 1 + Justice 2 = + 21
That 95% against a CR 8 creature with just one round of buffing.
I may have made an error in the above idea but I think there is enough buffer room that it should basically work.
If you actually want a productive conversation why don't you post a build with your list of deficiencies and ask how to plug the holes.
It seems you can't find a class you like. Pathfinder is a game about different roles. You can only broaden classes so much. I have a druids with 19 starting wisdom that still does well in a fist fight. Fighters with wings and healing, that use wands a scrolls (without umd) that can deal with swarms, haunts and possession. A knowledge monkey, face skald that still has competitive damage before considering his effect on the party. A face, knowledge monkey, investigator that debuffs and hits like a truck. BUT they take a while to get good lots of things. They start with a speciality and then build other talents and each still has things they can't do. You don't have to stay in your lane but you also can't be every car on the highway.
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So I don't really see how you consider it a feat starved class. It's not like there are feats it's needing to take.
The new definition of "feat-starved" is not having all the bonus combat feats of a fighter.
So I don't really see how you consider it a feat starved class. It's not like there are feats it's needing to take.The new definition of "feat-starved" is not having all the bonus combat feats of a fighter.
No its about not having enough feats to have a balanced loadout of offense, defense, and utility coverage. A Fighter has too many feats but has no magic or skills. I see little point to sticking to a pure fighter.
You have different ideas. I can pretty much say "how do I make it better" and you will go somewhere else. Each advice thread is basically that and then different opinions on what they consider "better".
Here, a 2d6 reach weapon with slashing, piercing, or bludgeoning damage types at will that can be used by any class even Druid and Monk.
Now how do I turn a Longspear into that? Your opinion will vary between "you cant" to specific builds like using feats and multiclassing.
My question? Why is it so hard to just pick up a weapon and train with it like any skill? WIshlist is for Weapon proficiencies to be a New Skill at some point.
Youre arguing your taking things out of context to fit your side point. Sorry I forget some people will dump every stat to max out strength. To me any hybrid class with casting and therefore a mental stat requirement has reduced strength compared to a purely physical class. a 16 strength inquisitor is legal and reasonable.
Now Youre arguing for the sake of arguing using an illegal build. You cant have a Menacing Amulet or less importantly an Inquisitor requires level 6 for Outflank.
Each time I open a thread it becomes more and more about people straying off. I do that same thing. I can keep bringing up that I want to either have all martial weapons unlocked without multiclassing or enough feats to have a powerful and no-handicap ranged build.
#1 isnt possible...which is the problem.
#2 well Black Powder Sanctified Slayer Inquisitor above.
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For future threads how many details do you need? Should I specify if its a legal build? How many points for stats? Paizo or third party materials allowed? Campaign details?
Thanks for new ideas. No thanks to the people implying handicaps are better. Its an logical contradiction.
#2 is probably best answered by going outside feats. Seeking and/or veering guns or ammunition will do you for Improved Precise Shot (better vs. total concealment/invisibility, worse vs. cover), Litany of Sloth is not quite the equal of Point Blank Master but then it is a 1st level spell. Burst of Speed is a 3rd level spell which gets you out of wherever you are trying to shoot from without getting AoO'd.
As for #1, why all martial weapons? You can only use one at a time after all. If it's a particular kind like the multiple damage type weapons I pointed out above you could get a halberd (1d10/x3, P or S, brace and trip) with the right deity (or which I didn't mention the scythe, 2d4/x4, P or S, trip), or if it's a reach weapon better than a longspear the right deity can give you proficiency in a ranseur (2d4/x3, P, disarm and reach) or a glaive (1d10/x3, S, reach). Sure a 1d12 weapon is better, but only by a point of damage on average, or maybe 2 for a 2d6. With spells and judgements you can do way better than +1-2 damage.
Tunnel vision is a problem. You can't beat a fighter on feats, look for ways around that.
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Ya sorry I goofed on outflank have used it on full a Bab character and a Hunter so if you bump the level up by one it's a legal build and gets you to 95% and you can have a menacing amulet. My bad though. I did say I may have made a mistake and the build without outflank still gets to 95% for the level.
Again you stat argument is distill very loose without specifics because a fighter should have a decent wisdom score because they have a poor will save so 14 would be perfectly reasonable for either. So for this reason a point buy or set of stats would really help keep the discussion on topic. Maybe the problem is fighters have heavy armor so you have have lower Dex thus more strength.
Many other people ask for build help actually specify all the things you listed.
I'm going to bow out. I find it hard to get in the same character building mind set as you. If this is actually what you want in an inquisitor "I want to either have all martial weapons unlocked without multiclassing or enough feats to have a powerful and no-handicap ranged build" and the case people have made for you "they have enough feats" or "you can do OK without the weapons if you pick the right race or use what you got" there is nothing anyone can until a new archetype is released. Good luck and I hope you find a build you like.
I think you missed a bit. Im glad someone reminded me about Weapon Versatility as it can make any weapon have multiple damage types. So that diminishes the point of having martial weapons with multiple damage types for a melee build.
In regards to Ranged builds Martial weapons are actually pretty necessary until you have the right feats. High quality melee weapons are necessary so you dont have to waste traits, levels, and feats on temporary measures while waiting for the build necessary make exclusively ranged attacks.
Its a crutch but its one you *should* be able to get rid of by leveling. A big sore point for me is the difficulty in getting Point Blank Master. I find that to be the cornerstone on any ranged build.
Having a lot of feats for the sake of having them isnt the point but that fighting styles require them to specialize to the point of being crippled. A Glass cannon Inquisitor is easy and even Iconic. So how to improve upon that design? A Ranged Build requires Precise Shot, Improved Precise Shot, Snap Shot, and Point Blank Master just to be able to attack without penalties.
So there are 4 feats to make a Composite Longbow as effective as a common Heavy Mace. IF you can reach that point however you have a massive advantage in being able to make full attacks at any range while standing still. So you profit.
I find a acceptable build to be able to hit at least 50% of the time. My end goal is to get something closer to 90% versus high level/challenge targets like Orcus and Cthulu so Touch attacks from an Advanced Firearms.
Im working towards Sniping Cthulu, So there.
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Hitting Cthulhu? He has AC 49. So...
LG Inquisitor lvl 20
BAB 15
Str 38 (18 start, +5 level ups, +6 belt, +5 manual, +4 righteous might)
Divine Power +6 attack/damage
Heroism +2 attack
Size -1 attack (righteous might)
Falchion +5
Pale green Prism Ioun Stone +1 attack
Weapon Focus +1 attack
Bane +2 attack, +4d6+2 damage
Judgment Justice +6 attack (with Slayer), Destruction +7 damage, Smiting Lawful
Attack +51/+51/+46/+41 damage 2d6 + 41 + 4d6
- Hits Cthulhu 95% on the first two attacks, 90% with the thrid.
- Ignores his DR because his weapon hits as a +7 lawful falchion.
- Negates his fast healing on a crit. Crit is 15-20/x2 with +6 (or +10 with critical focus) to crit confirmation.
Note that all this is basically a core character (except for the Inquisitor class of course). No archetype, no inquisition/domain, no fancy new equipment/feats or whatever you can find in some obscure source. Also assumes you are fighting Cthulhu alone for some reason, so no additional buffs, flanking or whatever.