Besides which, the luxon can cover intraplanetary/lunar orbital distances as well. Our moon orbits the earth at about 0.344 luxon away (2.064 light-seconds). Io orbits Jupiter at ~0.234 luxon. Titan's orbit of Saturn is ~0.679 luxon. Neptune's Triton's orbit is ~0.197 luxon.
This isn't needed for every body; the Pluto-Charon distance is merely a few ten thousand km. The orbits of Mars' satellites are comparable in scale.
Surprisingly, technology may have given the imperial system an extended life here on Earth. The computational simplicity of the metric system is no longer a factor when our cell phones have apps that can take care of the calculations for us. So nowadays, the only thing driving Americans towards the metric system is the ever increasing majority of people in the world who prefer that system.
At some point in the future, I am sure that the imperial system will fall by the wayside in the same way that French as the language of international relations did, and for very similar reasons.
Out of the whole metric system, Celsius should be the easiest for USAans to adapt to. Instead of 72, think 20. Every 5 degrees down, add another layer of clothing. :)
Parsec sounds cooler, but the definition is kind of wonky and again depends on the specific geometry of our real world solar system. Light years work just fine, as I believe Golarion's year is about the same as ours.
"Kid, This ship made the Absalom run in 12 parsecs."
In other words, while the exacting numbering of freezing point is a bit wonky at 32, it has a better granularity for everyday life.
Who needs granularity? With Celsius, less than 10 is too cold, more than 20 is too hot.
On the topic of distance, have I recommended the sesquimeter (sq.) lately?
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Who needs granularity?
My thermostat.
Out of the whole metric system, Celsius should be the easiest for USAans to adapt to. Instead of 72, think 20. Every 5 degrees down, add another layer of clothing. :)
See below...
In other words, while the exacting numbering of freezing point is a bit wonky at 32, it has a better granularity for everyday life.Who needs granularity? With Celsius, less than 10 is too cold, more than 20 is too hot.
Well, I do, as I mentioned previously
In Alaska, the small metric difference between -20F, -30F,and -40(same in both!) and all points in between isn't just a matter of thermostat fiddling, it can be a literal question of life and death, because not all gear is created equal- and I'm not just talking about coats, hats, and boots.
More pleasantly, it lets us add some shade and nuance to our summertime temperatures... because once again, to people as cold-hardened as we are, from 50F (10 for Clan Centingrade) to 70F (21.1) to 80F (26.6) happening in the span of a single day is something that happens regularly in summer months.
Not all of us have a gulf stream keeping our climate within happy little norms.
(No idea what California,Oregon, and Washington State's excuse is, though)
(No idea what California,Oregon, and Washington State's excuse is, though)
We have perfectly reasonable excuse, it's that it sounds like a hassle. Besides, how else are we supposed to explain how angry we get when it starts raining just before it gets cold enough to snow, so you get stuck with the cold and the wet, and never end up with the snow. Dang Puget Sound...
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And, somehow, you think that temperatures going from 18-35C in summer and -5 to -40 in winter are... somehow *not* showing any nuance or indication of danger in any way?
I'm saying the level of granularity is too low for something I stake my life on when I go out into the big empty.
I know the scientific community does just fine in Antarctica. I also know that they have way better stuff than I do.
20 invent new layers
30 all the layers
40 Lots of layers
50 3 layers
60 2 layers
70 1 layer
80 No layers
90 No shirt
100 no shoes
110 no service.
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- 'you're in a huge cathedral. the ceiling rises high to an enourmous dome approximatly 20 ft. above you'
- 'that's not that big actually'
- 'damn. double that. wait, triple that. oh, ffs, just imagine it's huge.'
Took me so long to try and figureout how wide and deep a river was last session.
That's how the rest of the world feels about imperial.
"What the hell is that 113? Above boiling??? No wait, USA." And then we have to subtract 32 and divide the result by 1.8. OH. It's 45.
At least we match at forty below, which is what I sometimes call "almost-killing cold." It's a handy point of crossover...
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That's how the rest of the world feels about imperial.
"What the hell is that 113? Above boiling??? No wait, USA." And then we have to subtract 32 and divide the result by 1.8. OH. It's 45.
well, you're weird. Our scale makes sense if you're in a temperate zone and want to know how cold it is which.. is kinda what you want a scale for every day use to refer to. water boils when it boils, my tongue sticks tot he pole at 30 and my shirt sticks to me at 90
That's how the rest of the world feels about imperial.
"What the hell is that 113? Above boiling??? No wait, USA." And then we have to subtract 32 and divide the result by 1.8. OH. It's 45.
I had almost exactly this happening today while baking christmas cookies using an American recipe.The recipe said something about threehundredsomething degrees and I stood in front of the oven scratching my head for a while (thinking: 'how the hell do I get THAT temperature out of a normal oven?') before I remembered that it was propably in Fahrenheit. My calculator told me bake the cookies at 176,667° which I figured is close enough to 180° which is the usual baking temperature
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At least we match at forty below, which is what I sometimes call "almost-killing cold." It's a handy point of crossover...That's how the rest of the world feels about imperial.
"What the hell is that 113? Above boiling??? No wait, USA." And then we have to subtract 32 and divide the result by 1.8. OH. It's 45.
"In -40, all warriors are cold warriors"?
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Using US measurements in space is thrice-damned blasphemy. Sci-fi settings using metric is as much of a genre trope as it is a measurement system.
Well, I guess this means we know which system of measurements the descendents of Cheliax will be using in space . . . .
At least we match at forty below, which is what I sometimes call "almost-killing cold." It's a handy point of crossover...That's how the rest of the world feels about imperial.
"What the hell is that 113? Above boiling??? No wait, USA." And then we have to subtract 32 and divide the result by 1.8. OH. It's 45."In -40, all warriors are cold warriors"?
And somehow they keep fighting. My diagnosis is insanity.
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I can also do 9x/5+32 in my head to figure out what a temperature in Celcius means, but that doesn't mean I want to, or that it's in any way optimal, or close to it.
(Never mind trying to convert km to miles so I can figure out about how long a distance it is.)
approximately 1.6 kilometers = 1 mile
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I say we measure everything by the length that the average halfling can be tossed.
All joking aside. I think it's simply easier to keep the old measurement. I never put that much though into units used and I think the decision should be based primarily on ease of use. When DMing I think it's much easier to simply add in things that use the same units of measurement. As a player, I want to have one less thing discouraging my DM from wanting to include spells from pathfinder unless there's a story based reason behind it.
Sounds right to me. I'm all for compatability. Also, I don't think it should be based on who is playing the game... I think it should be based entirely on who is WRITING the games.
If the creators are American and used to using American measurments... then they should use what they are comfortable with. I don't want poorly written stats and APs because they didn't convert things the way some customers want.
Is the majority of players actually fully just the US? Because most of the people I play with are ... well... not. I think one guy on roll20's American?
Online PBP? I don't know how much that would count... My theory would be that the more people there are looking for PBP, the more they can't find a live group that fits them. Most of the people I know in America here think PBP is an interesting idea, but can't match the fact that they all have live groups to play with.
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How many drams to a hogshead again?
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To be honest No matter what they use I will probably just think of movement in combat and space combat in terms of squares of movement. Charge 6 squares!
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My thermostat.Who needs granularity?
Also, as a chef, I prefer the granularity of Fahrenheit when we bake, fry, and sous vide our food. Though for weights, we always use grams.
Truthfully, how the rest of the world feels about imperial doesn't affect my players or group. We know imperial better than metric, and our point of references for them make sense to us in our group. For planetside missions, if I say "This is 10 miles away", they have a good mental image and understanding of the distance. The same isn't really true if I say "This is 16 km away". And trust me, I have tried it with HERO system, which uses metric. For combat, it was never a problem because we just counted the hexes. But whenever I would try and impress a distance or measurement on them in metric, I'd get questions on how heavy or hot or far the concept was. So for me it is just simpiler to stick with Imperial for my games. Even when I run Stars Without Number or Eclipse Phase, I run it in Imperial. It's just easier for me and my group to grok.
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Nothing against either side, but sometimes the GM just has to tape a list of conversions to their screen, and say "that's, uh, 15 of the units you're used to instead of 27 of the weird one."
Outside the US, though, it's the exact opposite.
Well, that's the issue, isn't it?
No matter what's done, someone will be inconvenienced.
Based on sales numbers, I assume that the US dominates the expected Starfinder market and the measurements should be in whatever keeps the Yankees happy. But this may limit the long-term market.
Based purely on population, more of the world uses metric -- heck, more of the English speaking world uses metric -- but that may not mean much if the Indian market for SF RPGs can't make up for a failure to launch in the States.
I was asking above to try to get an estimate of how badly different groups of people would be inconvenienced (in either direction). Given that every schoochild in the States has had to learn the SI in science class, and given that SF games in particular have used metric since the 1970s, I'm thinking that metric is the way to go. But I'd be willing to change my opinion if the Europeans assured me that "oh, we watch enough US television that we know exactly how tall a 5'8" woman is." (Answer, by the way -- pretty tall but not Amazonian.)
Given that I've not received that assurance, mark me down on the "meters, please" column. If anyone's keeping track.
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Will SF finally use the metric system or do I still need to consult an app while playing or GMing to translate the gibberish?
I think they should use an arbitrary system of measurement so that both US and Euro are equally stymied by the measurements.
Can we use Klingon kalicams?
Or we could all just remember the number 1. 1 meter = `1.1 yards.
I was going to say that, being sci-fi, all units should be in Astronomical Units - including squares of movement giving us such convenient movement rates as .000000000061 AU for normal humans, .000000000041 AU for small races.
More seriously, I would like to see StarFinder adopt the sci-fi game convention of using metric for most measures.
Seems to me that everybody is dancing around the elephant in the room. You can argue that spaces on a grid (hex or square) are just spaces, but the game translates distance in the imaginary world BOTH into distance in inches on a grid, as well as measurements of the imaginary space.
This generates easy enough jargon when you're translating a 1-inch square into 5 feet. But it becomes a mess when you translate that 1-inch square into meters.
You either end up in a situation where you are forced to change the grid to centimeters or forced to create grids composed of 50mm squares, but in any case you exasperate a standard that is already in place with hundreds of manufactures of minis, terrains, grids, maps, etc. In any case, you end up counting all of your character's movement two meters at a time, which any honest person should admit was the most obnoxious part of the Star Wars d20 game.
Suddenly, the majority of the market is working in an abstract, either imagining the height of a person as too tall or two short, and none of it making a lot of sense. In terms of describing it at the table, you may as well speak with marbles in your mouth or state your name, sex, race, class and level everytime your character introduces himself.
It is no coincidence that the metric system, while wonderful for measuring distance on a planetary level (being based on the measurements of our own planet) is an absolute crap sandwich in terms of measuring abstracts of human size and movement in an imaginary game, as compared to the imperial system. The imperial system is based on human measurements.
European manufacturers of wargames understand this very well. They make no attempts to convert their systems. There are some games that began based on a metric measurement (15mm games, for instance), but even most historicals measure distance in inches, converting to feet.
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Seems to me that everybody is dancing around the elephant in the room. You can argue that spaces on a grid (hex or square) are just spaces, but the game translates distance in the imaginary world BOTH into distance in inches on a grid, as well as measurements of the imaginary space.
This generates easy enough jargon when you're translating a 1-inch square into 5 feet. But it becomes a mess when you translate that 1-inch square into meters.
You either end up in a situation where you are forced to change the grid to centimeters or forced to create grids composed of 50mm squares, but in any case you exasperate a standard that is already in place with hundreds of manufactures of minis, terrains, grids, maps, etc. In any case, you end up counting all of your character's movement two meters at a time, which any honest person should admit was the most obnoxious part of the Star Wars d20 game.
Suddenly, the majority of the market is working in an abstract, either imagining the height of a person as too tall or two short, and none of it making a lot of sense. In terms of describing it at the table, you may as well speak with marbles in your mouth or state your name, sex, race, class and level everytime your character introduces himself.
It is no coincidence that the metric system, while wonderful for measuring distance on a planetary level (being based on the measurements of our own planet) is an absolute crap sandwich in terms of measuring abstracts of human size and movement in an imaginary game, as compared to the imperial system. The imperial system is based on human measurements.
I wonder then why we in France always translate Imperial to metrics when playing RPGs
European manufacturers of wargames understand this very well. They make no attempts to convert their systems. There are some games that began based on a metric measurement (15mm games, for instance), but even most historicals measure distance in inches, converting to feet.
Well, if you aim for the US and/or UK market, you just know that metrics is a lost cause regardless of its merits
And trust me, I have tried it with HERO system, which uses metric.
Well 6E does - every edition before that just used "inches" as a abstract distance that roughly 6 feet or 2 meters, whichever you are comfortable with. I still used "inches" when playing 6th.Note also that it uses Hexes for all maps, not squares.
Now I'm thinking about what they'll use for astronomical distances. Inside a solar system, the Astronomical Unit(AU) is a very convenient yardstick, but the definition of it is very dependent on the real life Earth-Sun distance, so it could be weird having it be an in-game term in a fantasy solar system.
For interstellar distances, I prefer light years(LY) over parsecs. Parsec sounds cooler, but the definition is kind of wonky and again depends on the specific geometry of our real world solar system. Light years work just fine, as I believe Golarion's year is about the same as ours.
For those who don't know the definitions:
1 AU = the mean distance between the Earth and the Sun
1 LY = how far light travels in one year
1 parsec = the distance from the Sun where the Earth and the Sun are separated by an angle of one arc second(1/3600 of one degree)Sorry, I started sci-fi gaming with traveller, so it's parsecs for me. I mean, my god, the Millennium Falcon didn't make the Kessel Run in in less than 39.12 light years, nor should it. Ever! :P
Here's a question: Given how often I see the metric vs american standard issue raised, does anyone think a 3pp pamphlet listing all the CRB distances (weapon tables, travel times, creature size etc) listed in meters, including a 1.5cm = 1m grid and tokens/counters sized to the grid would be popular? I'm to lazy to write it up myself, but it sorta sounds like someone could make a mint if they had the wherewithal.
At least in the german translations, all those measurements are changed.
I´m used to english, but not familiar with all the measurements and i guess most other non-US people aren´t really either.Might be worth a try.
Other than that, depending on how some game mechanics turn out i think going by the measurement of lightspeed in at least some situations is the most gracefull solution. Raise us above the petty squabbles of our times to true majesty!
And having three zones for ranged combat is very good as well, or maybe four. Out of reach, in reach, point blank shot, too close.
Melee combat gets a bit more complicated if you want to uphold the reach weapins thing, but even that has different solutions.
All depends on how much designers want to stick to the origin.
Personaly, i welcome rules and mechanics which declutter gameplay and make it more fluid and streamlined.
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^Keep in mind what happened to Mars Climate Orbiter -- SOMEBODY isn't going to pay proper attention to units, and then something like that happens.
Now I'm thinking about what they'll use for astronomical distances. Inside a solar system, the Astronomical Unit(AU) is a very convenient yardstick, but the definition of it is very dependent on the real life Earth-Sun distance, so it could be weird having it be an in-game term in a fantasy solar system.
For interstellar distances, I prefer light years(LY) over parsecs. Parsec sounds cooler, but the definition is kind of wonky and again depends on the specific geometry of our real world solar system. Light years work just fine, as I believe Golarion's year is about the same as ours.
For those who don't know the definitions:
1 AU = the mean distance between the Earth and the Sun
1 LY = how far light travels in one year
1 parsec = the distance from the Sun where the Earth and the Sun are separated by an angle of one arc second(1/3600 of one degree)Sorry, I started sci-fi gaming with traveller, so it's parsecs for me. I mean, my god, the Millennium Falcon didn't make the Kessel Run in in less than 39.12 light years, nor should it. Ever! :P
Here's a question: Given how often I see the metric vs american standard issue raised, does anyone think a 3pp pamphlet listing all the CRB distances (weapon tables, travel times, creature size etc) listed in meters, including a 1.5cm = 1m grid and tokens/counters sized to the grid would be popular? I'm to lazy to write it up myself, but it sorta sounds like someone could make a mint if they had the wherewithal.
At least in the german translations, all those measurements are changed.
I´m used to english, but not familiar with all the measurements and i guess most other non-US people aren´t really either.
Might be worth a try.
You're saying the German language translation of Pathfinder lists all the CRB distances in metric measurements? If I understand you correctly, then I don't even know what the point of this thread is, no insult to anyone.
You're saying the German language translation of Pathfinder lists all the CRB distances in metric measurements? If I understand you correctly, then I don't even know what the point of this thread is, no insult to anyone.Now I'm thinking about what they'll use for astronomical distances. Inside a solar system, the Astronomical Unit(AU) is a very convenient yardstick, but the definition of it is very dependent on the real life Earth-Sun distance, so it could be weird having it be an in-game term in a fantasy solar system.
For interstellar distances, I prefer light years(LY) over parsecs. Parsec sounds cooler, but the definition is kind of wonky and again depends on the specific geometry of our real world solar system. Light years work just fine, as I believe Golarion's year is about the same as ours.
For those who don't know the definitions:
1 AU = the mean distance between the Earth and the Sun
1 LY = how far light travels in one year
1 parsec = the distance from the Sun where the Earth and the Sun are separated by an angle of one arc second(1/3600 of one degree)Sorry, I started sci-fi gaming with traveller, so it's parsecs for me. I mean, my god, the Millennium Falcon didn't make the Kessel Run in in less than 39.12 light years, nor should it. Ever! :P
Here's a question: Given how often I see the metric vs american standard issue raised, does anyone think a 3pp pamphlet listing all the CRB distances (weapon tables, travel times, creature size etc) listed in meters, including a 1.5cm = 1m grid and tokens/counters sized to the grid would be popular? I'm to lazy to write it up myself, but it sorta sounds like someone could make a mint if they had the wherewithal.
At least in the german translations, all those measurements are changed.
I´m used to english, but not familiar with all the measurements and i guess most other non-US people aren´t really either.
Might be worth a try.
there are enough issues with the German translation to not purchase them but the originals instead
Sure, but if the metric version is out there already this whole subject seems much less "can't you meet the rest of the world halfway," than "my preferred system of measurement is objectively better because I prefer it."
. . .
Um, not that I'm against Starfinder using the metric system.
I was going to say that, being sci-fi, all units should be in Astronomical Units - including squares of movement giving us such convenient movement rates as .000000000061 AU for normal humans, .000000000041 AU for small races.
More seriously, I would like to see StarFinder adopt the sci-fi game convention of using metric for most measures.
Except that there isn't one to any meaningful basis. Traveler used english units for the bulk of it's original incarnation. Star Fleet Battles just used hexes. But there isn't really a dominant space fantasy game out there.