Transformation has a material component of a potion of bulls strength, which you drink as part of the casting and it's effects are subsumed by the spell. This is all well and good when you are casting it on yourself as it was designed, but who has to drink the potion when a brownfur transmuter casts this on the fighter?
If the fighter has to drink it does one of you have to ready an action to drink the potion and cast at the same time?
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My assumption is that you drink it as normal and the magic of share transmutation handles transferring the effects to the target. I doubt you'll find a hard rule for this though.
Transformation has a material component of a potion of bulls strength, which you drink as part of the casting and it's effects are subsumed by the spell. This is all well and good when you are casting it on yourself as it was designed, but who has to drink the potion when a brownfur transmuter casts this on the fighter?
If the fighter has to drink it does one of you have to ready an action to drink the potion and cast at the same time?
Spell is personal only.
Spell is personal only.Transformation has a material component of a potion of bulls strength, which you drink as part of the casting and it's effects are subsumed by the spell. This is all well and good when you are casting it on yourself as it was designed, but who has to drink the potion when a brownfur transmuter casts this on the fighter?
If the fighter has to drink it does one of you have to ready an action to drink the potion and cast at the same time?
I know
Share Transmutation (Su): At 9th level, the brown-fur transmuter can target others with her transmutation spells. A brown-fur transmuter can expend 1 point from her arcane reservoir to change any transmutation spell with a range of personal to a range of touch. Such a spell automatically fails on unwilling creatures. This ability replaces the arcanist exploit gained at 9th level.
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My assumption is that you drink it as normal and the magic of share transmutation handles transferring the effects to the target. I doubt you'll find a hard rule for this though.
I doubt it also, but I wanted to to see what others thought, and the rules forum seemed the right place for it. I'm hoping someone knows some obscure passage somewhere.
Even without Share Transmutation, the question is an issue for things like Share Spells with your familiar or simply putting it on a scroll. My answer has it work like making a scroll of it, which we do actually have rules for. The caster pays the cost and drinks the potion, but the potion gets subsumed by the spell being cast. And then the target is the target.
Here's the real question... Why would you bother? If the fighter is the same level as you are, he wouldn't gain anything from the spell BAB wise, and presumably he would have magic that would already give him the enhancement bonuses to attributes that the spell gives. and he already has the martial proficiencies.
Here's the real question... Why would you bother? If the fighter is the same level as you are, he wouldn't gain anything from the spell BAB wise, and presumably he would have magic that would already give him the enhancement bonuses to attributes that the spell gives. and he already has the martial proficiencies.
Meh. He gave a bad example case. Just assume he's casting it on a warpriest or something. It's a pretty valid question, but there's not a strong official answer to my knowledge.
Here's the real question... Why would you bother? If the fighter is the same level as you are, he wouldn't gain anything from the spell BAB wise, and presumably he would have magic that would already give him the enhancement bonuses to attributes that the spell gives. and he already has the martial proficiencies.Meh. He gave a bad example case. Just assume he's casting it on a warpriest or something. It's a pretty valid question, but there's not a strong official answer to my knowledge.
I would say that whoever is being affected by the spell has to drink the potion.
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Either one. Doesn't matter. Either you lather up the fighter with it or you drink it and transfer THE POWER OF GREYSKULL over to them.
A spell's components explain what you must do or possess to cast the spell.
Drinking is part of casting the spell, therefore the caster drinks the potion, not the fighter. The caster doesn't get the benefits of the potion, as it is consumed in casting the transformation spell.
Material (M): A material component consists of one or more physical substances or objects that are annihilated by the spell energies in the casting process.
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From the magic chapter:
"To cast a spell, you must be able to speak (if the spell has a verbal component), gesture (if it has a somatic component), and manipulate the material components or focus (if any)."
Since the caster must manipulate the component and the potion is listed as a component, then it must be the caster who manipulates the component by drinking the potion.
Drinking is part of casting the spell, therefore the caster drinks the potion, not the fighter. The caster doesn't get the benefits of the potion, as it is consumed in casting the transformation spell.
Which would normally ONLY be cast ONLY on the spellcaster. Since the spell clearly states that the potion is involved in receiving the spell effects, casting it the transmuter's way essentially turns the potion into a focus which has to be consumed by the spell's target.
Which would normally ONLY be cast ONLY on the spellcaster. Since the spell clearly states that the potion is involved in receiving the spell effects, casting it the transmuter's way essentially turns the potion into a focus which has to be consumed by the spell's target.
Drinking is part of casting the spell, therefore the caster drinks the potion, not the fighter. The caster doesn't get the benefits of the potion, as it is consumed in casting the transformation spell.
Except, thats not what share transmutation says. Spend 1 point of arcane reservoir to change the target to touch instead of personal. Nothing else changes. So exactly the same casting process, and then he touches to deliver the effect to someone else.
Since the spell clearly states that the potion is involved in receiving the spell effects
Does it? Read it again, "a potion of bull's strength, which you drink and whose effects are subsumed by the spell effects". So, You drink it and then it's effects are subsumed by the spell effects. But that doesn't mean that the spell effects have to target yourself.
So exactly the same casting process, and then he touches to deliver the effect to someone else.
This reminds me, Arcanists can apply metamagic to a spell as it is being cast. So, you could also use reach spell to apply the spell at a further range than touch. This spell is already pretty high level, but it's a nice option for some of the lower level buffs, if you want to buff your melee while staying out of combat.
So exactly the same casting process, and then he touches to deliver the effect to someone else.This reminds me, Arcanists can apply metamagic to a spell as it is being cast. So, you could also use reach spell to apply the spell at a further range than touch. This spell is already pretty high level, but it's a nice option for some of the lower level buffs, if you want to buff your melee while staying out of combat.
That's a really good point, just to clarify, since changing it to touch is on the spot preparing it with reach would not work, correct?
I would say you aren't intended to be able to prepare it with reach. You could try to get overly pedantic with it though. "A brown-fur transmuter can expend 1 point from her arcane reservoir to change any transmutation spell with a range of personal to a range of touch." So, that doesn't list a duration or mention casting, so someone could argue that the spell is changed in your spell book forever. I don't think that's a probable interpretation though.
I would say you aren't intended to be able to prepare it with reach. You could try to get overly pedantic with it though. "A brown-fur transmuter can expend 1 point from her arcane reservoir to change any transmutation spell with a range of personal to a range of touch." So, that doesn't list a duration or mention casting, so someone could argue that the spell is changed in your spell book forever. I don't think that's a probable interpretation though.
I also don't find this probable, especially considering this is essentially an arcane exploit. I'd consider spending the arcane reservoir point as exploiting a magical loophole in the spell, rather than altering the fundamentals of the spell.
The more I look at it, the more I wonder if Share Transmutation is meant to have a lasting effect. It's a supernatural ability that doesn't reference an activation time, so technically it takes a standard action to activate. I suspect this was just an oversight, but it may be reasonable to say that it effects whatever spell you have prepared until you don't have it prepared.
Can alchemists do this? Basicly, they would mix the potion in with the chemicals, drink it, then cast the spell. Casting seems to always be personal, but many spells are not personal.
With the proper meta magic, they can give the charged juice to someone else to drink.
The more I look at it, the more I wonder if Share Transmutation is meant to have a lasting effect. It's a supernatural ability that doesn't reference an activation time, so technically it takes a standard action to activate.
It is clearly part of casting a spell. What you're saying is that it doesn't work at all, which if you get as a result of a rules interpretation usually means you messed up somewhere.
It is clearly part of casting a spell.
Is it? Nothing in the text says that. Or even really suggests it.
What you're saying is that it doesn't work at all, which if you get as a result of a rules interpretation usually means you messed up somewhere.
No, I'm suggesting you use it sometime before you cast the spell. It's not like it has a duration.
It is clearly part of casting a spell.Is it? Nothing in the text says that. Or even really suggests it.
The entire way the arcanist works suggests it.
That the ability has no function apart from spellcasting suggests it.That there is no listed duration or action suggests it.
The way altering your spells with other exploits suggests it
That the ability has to work at all suggests it.
No, I'm suggesting you use it sometime before you cast the spell. It's not like it has a duration.
So because it has no duraction it has an infinite duration? a 24 hour duration? Can i set it off on monday pay the points out of my pool and have it go off on thursday?
I said before, but probably until you prepare new spells.
Because, "An arcanist must choose and prepare her spells ahead of time by getting 8 hours of sleep and spending 1 hour studying her spellbook. While studying, the arcanist decides what spells to prepare and refreshes her available spell slots for the day."
I said before, but probably until you prepare new spells.
Because, "An arcanist must choose and prepare her spells ahead of time by getting 8 hours of sleep and spending 1 hour studying her spellbook. While studying, the arcanist decides what spells to prepare and refreshes her available spell slots for the day."
...that translates into put an arcane point onto the spells.. how?
At that point, you decide "what spells to prepare", meaning that the spell you had previously modified with share transformation would be replaced.
At that point, you decide "what spells to prepare", meaning that the spell you had previously modified with share transformation would be replaced.
You cannot say that nothing suggests the easy and obvious solution to a highly technical problem and then come up with increasingly bizarre and random justifications for the solution you created out of whole cloth.
It is part of casting the spell. End of story.
It is part of casting the spell. End of story.
Where does it say that though? No where. What makes you think you can make up entire rules about how something is supposed to work? This ability is unique and so doesn't necessarily work the same way.
And there really aren't many other abilities that alter the way a spell works while being cast. And the ones there are either reference "casting" or reference other abilities that reference casting.
Where does it say that though? No where.
Except where every other arcane exploit works that way.
This ability is unique and so doesn't necessarily work the same way.
Okay, so because it's unique and MIGHT work some other way therefore it's perfectly okay to invent an entire other system unlike anything else in the class
What makes you think you can make up entire rules about how something is supposed to work?
Seriously?
From the non information you have about the spell you think you can derive some sort of system where you spend a standard action while preparing the spell and then have to track which spell has your arcane pool points spent on them because of a highly technical and often forgotten rule about what kind of action it was...
But if I say its part of casting the spell because that's how other arcane exploits work, it's the simplest answer, then the one making up rules with no evidence?
No. Making stuff up has a different definition than not agreeing with you.
And there really aren't many other abilities that alter the way a spell works while being cast.
Powerful change, brown fur transmuter ability,free action.
Arcanist ability to pump the dc or caster level by 1, free actionObfuscated Spellcasting part of casting the spell
Metamixing done as the spell is cast
Potent magic: affects the a
shift caster: no action given, spend 1 point to cast a spell.
When you guys start arguing against common sense, it time to end the topic. Not only doesn't it have to say everything, if it clearly says something really stupid, ignore that part. If it doesn't give a duration for a spell, its probably the duration of the potion, the duration of the spell used to make the potion if cast by the new caster, or a duration of a similar spell of that level.
Since the spell clearly states that the potion is involved in receiving the spell effectsDoes it? Read it again, "a potion of bull's strength, which you drink and whose effects are subsumed by the spell effects". So, You drink it and then it's effects are subsumed by the spell effects. But that doesn't mean that the spell effects have to target yourself.
Potion effects always target the drinker, so for the effect to be subsumed, it has to be present in the first place, and it's not present in the fighter unless the fighter drinks the potion. So yes buffing the fighter this way means that the wizard has to do the casting, and the fighter has to ready an action to drink the potion as the wizard does the casting.
So this is not really a good way to buff a fighter, especially if said fighter is already at the same level you are.
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Potion effects always target the drinker, so for the effect to be subsumed, it has to be present in the first place, and it's not present in the fighter unless the fighter drinks the potion.
No, the spell subsumes the potion's effect, so the caster can drink the potion. And it's impossible for someone other than the caster to manipulate the material components of a spell, so the caster has to drink the potion.
Where does it say that though? No where.Except where every other arcane exploit works that way.
Every other exploit says it works that way. This ability isn't an exploit and doesn't say it works that way.
From the non information you have about the spell you think you can derive some sort of system where you spend a standard action while preparing the spell and then have to track which spell has your arcane pool points spent on them because of a highly technical and often forgotten rule about what kind of action it was...
I think I have interpreted the text, while you are trying to add completely unwritten rules to impose your preconceived notions of how an exploit should work. Meanwhile, this ability isn't even an exploit.
Adding unwritten rules like this is why people thought that investigators could use wands like alchemists. So, there is precedent for an omission like this to be purposeful.
My take:
The caster drinks the potion as part of the casting process, and the potion is simply a material component of the spell. There are no additional actions required.
The decision to expend a point to increase the range to touch is made at the time of casting and execution, not at memorisation/preparation.
You could not prepare this spell with reach metamagic
Spells that do not have a range of touch, close, or medium do not benefit from this feat.
Share Transmutation (Su): At 9th level, the brown-fur transmuter can target others with her transmutation spells. A brown-fur transmuter can expend 1 point from her arcane reservoir to change any transmutation spell with a range of personal to a range of touch. Such a spell automatically fails on unwilling creatures. This ability replaces the arcanist exploit gained at 9th level.
You make all pertinent decisions about a spell (range, target, area, effect, version, and so forth) when the spell comes into effect.
You prepare the spell. Share Transmutation says nothing about preparing the spell, so it doesn't modify that. When you cast the spell, you then make all pertinent decisions about the spell, such as target. This is when you spend your 1 arcane point to change the spell from personal to touch. This lets you choose to target a creature you touch instead of yourself.
You prepare the spell. Share Transmutation says nothing about preparing the spell, so it doesn't modify that.
Yes, but after preparing the spell, you could then modify the spell with share transmutation. It would take a standard action and doesn't have a duration.
You prepare the spell. Share Transmutation says nothing about preparing the spell, so it doesn't modify that.Yes, but after preparing the spell, you could then modify the spell with share transmutation. It would take a standard action and doesn't have a duration.
I'm good with that. In fact, it makes more sense that because Share Transmutation is a Su ability, it takes a standard action to do, and isn't done as part of casting the spell. This makes the ability even weaker, as you have to pre-spend an arcane point and a standard action on any personal spells that you might want to later cast as touch spells.
It's not exactly weaker. Just different. You could also conceivably spend one point to change a spell and then cast that modified spell multiple times.
One ruling is more adaptable and the other interpretation is sometimes more cost effective.
Being Su does not mean it is always a standard action, there are a range of Su abilities that do not require a standard action.
Furthermore:
Points from the arcane reservoir are used to fuel many of the arcanist's powers. In addition, the arcanist can expend 1 point from her arcane reservoir as a free action whenever she casts an arcanist spell.
So no - you simply expend the point at time of casting.
Being Su does not mean it is always a standard action, there are a range of Su abilities that do not require a standard action.
And all of those abilities say they aren't a standard action.
Furthermore:
Points from the arcane reservoir are used to fuel many of the arcanist's powers. In addition, the arcanist can expend 1 point from her arcane reservoir as a free action whenever she casts an arcanist spell.
Of course, the next sentence says, "If she does, she can choose to increase the caster level by 1 or increase the spell’s DC by 1. She can expend no more than 1 point from her reservoir on a given spell in this way." So, I guess you think that an arcanist can use the same expended 1 point to apply the caster level bonus and the share transmutations ability.
Good luck with all that :)
It's not exactly weaker. Just different. You could also conceivably spend one point to change a spell and then cast that modified spell multiple times.
One ruling is more adaptable and the other interpretation is sometimes more cost effective.
That I disagree with. 1 point per change of the spell. You prepare transformation 2 times, then you can spend 1 point per prepared transformation to change it to touch. You don't get all the same name spells changed with 1 point.
I'm good with that. In fact, it makes more sense that because Share Transmutation is a Su ability, it takes a standard action to do
So you need a standard action to ability drain someone when you hit them?
Inflict lycanthropy?Use damage reduction?
Inflict a disease?
Energy drain someone?
Fly?
parallelizing touch someone?
See in magical darkness?
Use telepathy?
many of those don't have an action listed but its pretty obvious that they're part of another action, same as the way an arcanist modifies their spells all the time. They didn't give you an action type because they thought it was pretty obvious.
That I disagree with. 1 point per change of the spell. You prepare transformation 2 times, then you can spend 1 point per prepared transformation to change it to touch. You don't get all the same name spells changed with 1 point.It's not exactly weaker. Just different. You could also conceivably spend one point to change a spell and then cast that modified spell multiple times.
One ruling is more adaptable and the other interpretation is sometimes more cost effective.
But there is this:
An arcanist must prepare her spells ahead of time, but unlike a wizard, her spells are not expended when they’re cast.
The spell is what is changed by the ability and the spell is not expended.
I'm good with that. In fact, it makes more sense that because Share Transmutation is a Su ability, it takes a standard action to doSo you need a standard action to ability drain someone when you hit them?
Inflict lycanthropy?
Use damage reduction?
Inflict a disease?
Energy drain someone?
Fly?
parallelizing touch someone?
See in magical darkness?
Use telepathy?many of those don't have an action listed but its pretty obvious that they're part of another action, same as the way an arcanist modifies their spells all the time. They didn't give you an action type because they thought it was pretty obvious.
Most of those have permanent duration. So you activate them once and then they are permanently on. Please give a specific example from a creature or class.
I'm good with that. In fact, it makes more sense that because Share Transmutation is a Su ability, it takes a standard action to doSo you need a standard action to ability drain someone when you hit them?
Inflict lycanthropy?
Use damage reduction?
Inflict a disease?
Energy drain someone?
Fly?
parallelizing touch someone?
See in magical darkness?
Use telepathy?many of those don't have an action listed but its pretty obvious that they're part of another action, same as the way an arcanist modifies their spells all the time. They didn't give you an action type because they thought it was pretty obvious.
Curse of Lycanthropy (Su) A natural lycanthrope's bite attack in animal or hybrid form infects a humanoid target with lycanthropy (Fortitude DC 15 negates).
Damage Reduction (Ex or Su) A creature with this special quality ignores damage from most weapons and natural attacks.
Energy Drain (Su) This attack saps a living opponent's vital energy and happens automatically when a melee or ranged attack hits.
Flight (Ex or Su) A creature with this ability can cease or resume flight as a free action.
Paralysis (Ex or Su) This special attack renders the victim immobile.
See in Darkness (Su) The creature can see perfectly in darkness of any kind, including that created by deeper darkness.
Telepathy (Su) The creature can mentally communicate with any other creature within a certain range (specified in the creature's entry, usually 100 feet) that has a language.
Diseases have their own rules for inflicting, typically on contact/injury.
See in Darkness and Telepathy both say the creature can. That means, when seeing, the creature can choose to see normally or see in darkness, or when communicating it can speak normally or speak through telepathy.
That I disagree with. 1 point per change of the spell. You prepare transformation 2 times, then you can spend 1 point per prepared transformation to change it to touch. You don't get all the same name spells changed with 1 point.It's not exactly weaker. Just different. You could also conceivably spend one point to change a spell and then cast that modified spell multiple times.
One ruling is more adaptable and the other interpretation is sometimes more cost effective.
But there is this:
An arcanist must prepare her spells ahead of time, but unlike a wizard, her spells are not expended when they’re cast.The spell is what is changed by the ability and the spell is not expended.
Ah, you can tell I'm not that great with Arcanists.
I see it like acid jet.
Acid Jet (Su): The arcanist can unleash a jet of acid by expending 1 point from her arcane reservoir and making a ranged touch attack against any one target within 30 feet. If the attack hits, it deals an amount of acid damage equal to 1d6 + the arcanist's Charisma modifier, plus an additional 1d6 points of acid damage for every 2 levels beyond 1st (to a maximum of 10d6 at 19th level). The target is also sickened for 1d4 rounds. It can attempt a Fortitude saving throw to negate the sickened condition.
Exploit name (Su): no action is specified in the description, because the default action for Su abilities is a standard action. Spending a standard action to use acid jet allows you to make a ranged touch attack against a target and so on. You also have to spend a pool point on it.
I would agree that if you prepared transformation, you could standard action to change it to a touch range spell, spending the one point at that time. This reduces the utility of the ability, since you can't spend it as you cast the spell, but instead must plan ahead.
Exploit name (Su): no action is specified in the description, because the default action for Su abilities is a standard action. Spending a standard action to use acid jet allows you to make a ranged touch attack against a target and so on. You also have to spend a pool point on it.
Then spending the action lets you cast the spell. Its the exact same thing
cast spell with adder= adder goes on the spell
bite with rabies= rabies go on the bite.
Any other option is patently absurd. if the thing was supposed to make a spell take two rounds to cast it would have spelled that out. It also means that the ability doesn't work at all, because you can't spend a standard action and cast the spell at the same time.
Stop TRYING to find weird technicalities that break the game or make different parts of the game unplayable. It's part of casting the spell
Break the game? I've already shown all of the text for how this works. And all you've provided is unproven anecdotes.